XenForo 2.0 Discussion

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sbj

Well-known member
I'm not one to fanboy a brand, but what exactly have IPS and WBB added that is revolutionary that XF doesn't have?
Not talking about revolutionary regarding the other 2 forum software.
The revolutionary part is compared to social media giants, which means in today's world you need a mobile phone app. That part is lacking and also all modern software come with an API. Those 2 things are regarded as "revolutionary", sure the technology behind this is already years old, so actually it's old news, but that is exactly the point. Old news and still lacking behind.

About IPS and WBB.
Both have a calendar(events). This is essential. Any kind of social media platform uses this. Even Twitch integrated a sidebar for incoming events.
Most reddit sidebars have it. Facebook has it and anybody should be familiar with Google Calendar.

I don't want to hear "I don't need it, so it is only essential to you". No, that is invalid arguement, as the majority and the big players have it integrated, both mentioned forum software, too.
IPS also has ecommerce, blogs (so does WBB), cms and since 4.2 clubs. Clubs seems to be very popular.


I don't find XF two steps behind, it's still my preferred forum platform for traditional threaded discussions. It's also far cheaper than IPS and, at least as far as I've found, has a more friendly community in general. I don't know about WBB.
I agree. I also prefer XF. XF's support and community is A+. The product is very fast and secure and since the new polish it looks also very neat.
But it doesn't mean it covers all major aspects.

Honestly, use what platform best suits your needs. But XF2 was a great upgrade and changed massively under the hood, to call it trivial is a massive understatement. It's a complete change in design and a well welcomed and needed one at that. For those critical of it in this thread, perhaps wait until the x.X updates which aim to add more usable features before grabbing the pitchforks.
I don't grab the pitchfork. And I am not saying that the changes are trivial.
But my point is, or actually our point is, when talked about features, not much changed since 1.2. For example I have had addons built for 1.2 and were working for 1.5, so I can safely say the last big change was with 1.2 when it comes to features. Also you can skim the announcements and see for yourself what kind of stuff was added later, not much, or at least nothing you couldn't do with a popular addon. But also nobody is denying the huge work went into the new architecture for devs. But that was not the point. There is I think nothing you can do with 2.0 (maybe only minor things only) what you can't do with 1.5.

But again, the critique was not about that.
The critique is XF is making slow progress. The rate of improvement is very low.

In July of 2014 2.0 was announced.
In November of 2016 we have seen the beta forums.
In September 2017 first 2.0 version was released.


In 4 months it will be the time when 5 years ago 1.2 was released.
If you look from the window of 5 years, not much changed (on the hood, not under).
If you take the announcement of 2014, in last 4 years not much changed (the release of 1.4 was in 2014 August)
If you take the window of XF2 beta forums, 1.5 years has past.
And if you take the window of the official release, 6 months has past.

In my opinion the progress is too slow. I just wish things were faster.
But we'll see what 2.1 will bring us. I am so hyped about that. For me it's "makes it or breaks it" kind of a deal.
Either they sweep us off our feet and I eat all my words, or we see the same "meh" progress we have seen in 1.2->1.3->1.4->1.5->2.0 when it comes to feature enhancements. I'm hopeful, Chris said they are working on it.
 
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RobParker

Well-known member
About IPS and WBB.
Both have a calendar(events). This is essential. Any kind of social media platform uses this. Even Twitch integrated a sidebar for incoming events.
Most reddit sidebars have it. Facebook has it and anybody should be familiar with Google Calendar.

I don't want to hear "I don't need it, so it is only essential to you". No, that is invalid arguement, as the majority and the big players have it integrated, both mentioned forum software, too.
IPS also has ecommerce, blogs (so does WBB), cms and since 4.2 clubs. Clubs seems to be very popular.
A calendar for a social media platform where you can arrange events makes sense. A calendar for a discussion forum doesn't (aside from some specific niches). Just because other forums include it doesn't mean they're right. A better question would be how many IPS and WBB forums actually use their calendar? I suspect it's very few.

I guess it all comes down to, is XF a forum or a platform?

If it's a platform to build a website/community around then borrowing things from Facebook, etc makes sense (but Facebook does it better, has a bigger audience and far more resources so you're fighting somewhat of a losing battle).

XF specialising in being THE best forum also makes a lot of sense.
 

sbj

Well-known member
A calendar for a social media platform where you can arrange events makes sense. A calendar for a discussion forum doesn't (aside from some specific niches).
Even for a discussion forum it makes sense. For example to see birthdays of users listed or to announce daily/weekly/monthly threads for all users to participate in. The question is, which niche actually can't use a calendar at all? You need to name me one example. Any niche can use it. Sure, there will be some who will use it heavily, and some not at all. But saying "it makes no sense" makes no sense. You shouldn't talk like you determine what makes sense or not.

Just because other forums include it doesn't mean they're right.
I listed more than just "other forums". So Facebook, Twitch and reddit are just "other forums"?
Please...

A better question would be how many IPS and WBB forums actually use their calendar? I suspect it's very few.
A better question would be how many forums are alive at all so you can go and start deducting numbers from the 1% of the market share forum software hold. Or you just look at the rest 99% (billions of users in social media) and maybe, just maybe you can learn 1 or 2 things.

I guess it all comes down to, is XF a forum or a platform?
What kind of a question is this? Why do we need to draw an artificial line somewhere in those intangible words?
Having likes was Facebook's thing, right? Look at today. Did that stop XF implementing it? If it is good, it is good.
Did the phone makers also say "damn, we should decide if a phone is a phone and a camera is a camera". Or did they integrate lenses into phones?

Why can't we just get the good things of other softwares into XF, if there is a huge potential with it?


If it's a platform to build a website/community around then borrowing things from Facebook, etc makes sense (but Facebook does it better, has a bigger audience and far more resources so you're fighting somewhat of a losing battle).
So it is actually ok when Social Media steals from traditional forums, but forum software should just stick to its oldfashioned way? Don't innovate, don't progress.
Hmm, tell me, why are forums dead again? It worked brilliantly....
I am not talking turning forum software into Social Media duplicates, just an essential big feature called Calendar could make a lot of sense for ANY forum owner. Proved by the point that many big league participants also have it, and also 2 rivals by the way.
 
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RobParker

Well-known member
Your first question should be, how many forums NEED a calendar? After that, how many WANT a calendar? After that, how many would use a calendar if it existed but don't really care either way.

Those sort of questions let you decide where to prioritise the finite resources that XF has for development. You then ask the same questions for all the other addons that people want, portals, newsletters, etc and all the other core features.
 
I don't think anyone is trying replace Facebook. There are things that can be taken from social networks to benefit the community, such as when you upload a video to a forum post it actually embeds in the forum post and people can play it from the forum post (IPS 4.3). Then there's profile posts, which should be rich forum posts. I can go on but I won't.

I think the real problem is that there's some of us who want Xenforo to be more than just an awesome forum -- a community beyond just the forum. Kinda funny that vbulletin, WBB, and IPS all have calendars and blogs, but Xenforo doesn't and those are in the first two pages of the most liked suggestions dating back to 2010 (clearly there's interest there). Add-ons fill those voids and that seems to be what Xenforo wants. I like Xenforo, that's why I bought it and two of their official add-ons, but it's hard not to be distracted by IPS, especially since 4.2 and now 4.3 features. IPS fixed my biggest issue with them in 4.3, which is their gallery and 4.3 will also have a Xenforo 2.0 importer so decisions to make. If you need a forum for a company web site Xenforo is great, if you want to create an actual community it's not the best choice. That's how I feel about, I'm sure others will feel differently.
 

sbj

Well-known member
I am not pushing my agenda of getting calendar build in xf.
I was just replying to the question "mi mi mi, what do others do better, come, tell us".
So I gave a pretty meaningful answer with a good big example.
I am totally sure that facebooks millions of users don't need a calendar. And many of them didn't want it. And many of them don't care.
I can apply your logic to anything, to any feature and on any platform. Your arguement is invalid because it is not an arguement.
By that logic we can pretty much never have enhancements, because with your false logic arguement you can deny any progress for any platform @RobParker
 
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RobParker

Well-known member
I am not pushing my agenda of getting calendar build in xf.
I was just replying to the question "mi mi mi, what do others do better, come, tell us".
So I gave a pretty meaningful answer with a good big example.
I am totally sure that facebooks millions of users don't need a calendar. And many of them didn't want it. And many of them don't care.
I can apply your logic to anything, to any feature and on any platform. Your arguement is invalid because it is not an arguement.
By that logic we can pretty much never have enhancements, because with your false logic arguement you can deny any progress for any platform @RobParker
Well, no.

Events are one of the key parts of facebook (and core to most social media platforms) because people know each other and use it for organising their social life. Events don't really help discussions at all and there are many other things that would benefit discussions better (likes/ratings and trending content are both things that forums should absolutely steal from Facebook as they relate to the forums core business, i.e. discussions).

As I said, development should be targeted to where it helps XF become the best forum software. Neither adding calendars or newsletters do that as they're on the periphery of the activity that goes on on a forum.
 

RobinHood

Well-known member
Events don't really help discussions at all
Events help foster community.
People discuss events to plan them.
People discuss events after the fact to reflect on them.
XenForo is community software, it says so on the box in large header font.

‘A compelling community experience’

It’s seems such a shame that 7 odd years after launch and multiple calendar add ons later we still have people arguing about whether or not something as basic as a calendar is important to a community experience.
 

sbj

Well-known member
Well, yes.
Your arguement only holds when you cherry pick Facebook from all the examples, but it doesn't hold when we look at it in general.
Yes, events are key parts of Facebook and your reasoning is because people know each other and so on.
But people on Twitch don't know each other. People on reddit don't know each other. And yet they with their millions of users have calendar in their own quirky way.
And let's say ALL big guns have it for a reason which can't be applied to XF (which is ridiculous, but let's assume).
How about the other 3 competitors (WBB, IPS and VB5) in the market which do have this integrated?
So basically those 3 don't know, Facebook doesn't know, Twitch and reddit don't know, but YOU do know?
Sorry, but your points don't hold up.


As I said, development should be targeted to where it helps XF become the best forum software. Neither adding calendars or newsletters do that as they're on the periphery of the activity that goes on on a forum.
You are so arrogant. So we all want the worst for XF and you the best or what? And according to your majestic view the right path is yours only.
Sure, man, whatever you say. Your debating skills are weak, this is my last message to you.
 

Chris D

XenForo developer
Staff member
Let's just leave the argument about whether a calendar as a core feature or not is needed, it's a really moot point.

If we got to the point where we wanted to add a calendar/events feature, and we felt that it was only relevant to certain niches, then we would release it as a separate product (as WoltLab does). If we decided not to do that, and include it in the core, then, as ever, you will likely just be able to disable it with options/permissions if it was something you didn't need.
 

Gladius

Well-known member
If you go for a calendar, make it an addon and most people will be happy. Obviously not everyone, because if that ever happened the Earth would implode and time stop, but you get the idea.

From my perspective it's more of a niche feature that most forums don't really need, but obviously there will also be various forums which do, as with every other feature you can think of. It's always just a question of whether the majority or at least a good chunk of your customers will make use of a feature vs. it only being enabled on a small number of forums with very specific requirements.

XenForo does not have a worthwhile system that would gauge the interest level of the majority of its customers in any meaningfully accurate way, so it's just going to boil down to developer best guess and/or measuring the interest of a minuscule minority of admins who regularly visit the suggestions forum.
 

M@rc

Well-known member
A calendar would very much benefit my forum. People in specific user groups can add a date for an event and members can be alerted when it begins. There can also be an opt-in option if a specific event is not for the entire community, so not everyone will receive an alert.

The XF alert system would be the most important part of the calendar.

Right now we do things manually as admins via the admin panel which results in A LOT more work.

IMO, you can't really rely on discussions alone in this day and age if you're running a forum. People can do that anywhere. If a competitor forum lets you discuss everything you can do at your forum, but they have other additional activities going on, where would you rather be? :p
 

Chris D

XenForo developer
Staff member
To be honest, expressing interest and having an on-going discussion for such features outside of the suggestion thread (if there is one) is a waste. Please continue the discussion about specific features in the appropriate thread.

In fact, this thread itself has outlived its purpose. XenForo 2.0 has already been released and as I stated earlier, we will talk more about the upcoming XF 2.1 closer to the time:
We’re not going to provide a running commentary on development, but I can at least confirm that development of XF2.1 is well under way. And, as is typical with our previous releases and that of our competitors, more details will be released via the HYS forum closer to the time.
 
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