ThemeHouse and Audentio Design

[The Grand Potentate]

Im open to suggestions, in a technical way Im not sure how we could build it so you could get your money out of the system. But I think its a great idea, and Ill give it some thought.

You keep framing it as an in and out situation and I don't necessarily think that's got to be the case, so long as you give people equivalent value for the money they're putting in. People have to know that they're getting something for their money. I'm sure you can concept behind that. The vagueness is what's got everyone up in arms.

I do think that the crowdfunding idea makes MUCH more sense for you though. Let me give you an example:

Say I want to add in a rotating feature thread with a background and the whole nine yards into one of my themes. I come to you with the idea and you tell me it will be $100 but it could be funded via a crowd. You put it up on the website and let people pledge the amount they'd want, without getting financially involved at the moment. You ask for $110, to cover the costs of Paypal and credit card processing, and then just leave it up. Umpteen numbers of people can pledge towards the goal without any repercussion. If it doesn't get funded then the idea just falls flat. If it does, then you collect the money within a 72 hour window. If everyone pays up, then you're golden. If not, then you go back to me and ask me for the difference, or put it back up for the remaining amount, and if no one pays then you just refund the payments. All you're really doing is shuffling things on the website without any worry of what people are going to do with their money after the fact.

I will say that the idea you proposed of letting people put their own projects up and then own them after the fact is an awful one and will only cause you trouble. Let them take those ideas to kickstarter or the like. Stick to your own things on the company website.

 

[vbresults]

For over 300 products. It's possible, sure, but I wish the best of luck accurately maintaining them, especially since not all 8 are PHP developers. My guess is about 3 are, but I'm not sure exactly. Good luck updating all them in a timely manner when XF 2.0 comes out...

Best of luck maintaining them all for free is the more accurate way to put it. That obviously wasn't favorable to Waindingo.

I run businesses outside of XF. Sure, nobody makes acquisitions to not see a return. Problem here is, these are two acquisitions that shouldn't have been made. Waindigo had an excellent bunch of stuff, and obviously with his "free add-ons, subscribe for complete branding removal" didn't work out for the guy. I think it's a bit harder to acquire paid add-ons and make them paid and expect people to get them instead of using the existing versions for the remainder of the 1.x branch.

Waindigo, well I already commented, he was a nice guy for so much work and it all being free, but his hope of people subscribing probably didn't work all too well as expected.

You acknowledge that Waindingo handed off because they were not receiving due compensation, but then suggest TH shoot themselves in the foot too, then presume a better outcome.

The course TH taken is the one that works for everyone.

Borbole, well, he's an exception from anything for many reasons. He worked with ******* for a large time until he was banned from here which is where their relationship ended, afaik. I don't think he made little money. ******* was rolling in cash.

borbole most certainly was not rolling in cash.

I get what you mean by developers burning out, of course they are. I personally think people here undercharge hugely. PixelExit's prices are *ridiculously* low. Audentio, even, isn't charging too much last I checked. Add-ons here and there are pretty cheap too. With the minority being an exception, developers are underpaid here. They make most of their earning from custom work.

"take 7 give 3" [or give 0] mentality
^ what does that mean?

It's not complete, but in a way you've answered your own question here. They are not underpaid because that's what they want. Most devs would prefer to focus on and attend to a smaller number of items. But they get aggressively low-balled in public without recourse and have to release several items at the underpaid price point you mentioned. Again, this is a consequence of developers' treatment by many.

What game with TH? Of course they have most the resources here when they bought out the brand that had most the resources here... I mean... Lightbulb. I'm not playing a game with TH. I just, personally, have to criticise them with their acquisitions and the way it was played around. TH products system is spammed with Waindigo's decent add-ons republished for $10 and further updates. Personally, as a customer, that puts me off, but y'know.

I get what you're saying, that Waindingo shouldn't have been acquired. That said, it beats the alternative of Waindingo eventually leaving with their hands empty and dropping everything -- the add-ons vanish and there are no updates or support, free or paid. There is not a worse outcome for customers and the acquisition avoided that.

Look at the following.

Prices are provisionally:
$10 a month for a shared native app with self styling
$15 a month for a forum-specific app with self styling
$25 a month for a forum-specific branding free app
Additional charges may apply for differing publish options.

Oh, and BTW.

These prices would be yearly paid for in advance.

I would like to stress the Shared App is not going to be available with the first releases as we will be focusing on getting a solid stable app released before having to implement a categorization system etc.

With that in mind, at this point we are open to taking "pre-orders" for the forum specific and branding free apps.

Even being a well-known moderator, this person is terrified of being direct with their pricing and saying the prices are $120/$180/$300 per year because they know they are going to get scalped being up front, even though it's worth that and more depending on what they release. You think they really want to resort to this?

They drew comparisons to us so we had to shed light on this in their thread, but it's a real problem.

 

[0ptima]

@Mike Creuzer I would like to see [TH] Custom Fields by Waindigo become premium and include these features as part of the core

[TH] Star Rating for Custom Fields (Custom Field XML)
[TH] Date Field for Custom Fields (Custom Field XML)
[TH] Average Rating for Custom Fields (Custom Field XML)
[TH] Upload a File Field for Custom Fields (Custom Field XML)

 

[borbole]

Borbole, well, he's an exception from anything for many reasons. He worked with ******* for a large time until he was banned from here which is where their relationship ended, afaik. I don't think he made little money. ******* was rolling in cash.

I did not know that you were my account mr know-it-all. Can you believe this guy lol. I do not know where you get your facts but you are wrong. I never worked with *******. The only time I had any contact with them it was when I sold all my mods to them. And that was long before it became known that they were ingaged in all kind of ****. Next time get your facts straights before you run your mouth and act like you know everything.

 

[sbj]

From a customer's view, I just find your business too expensive.

A xenforo license costs 140$ + Vat.

For one vote you charge 30$. Some of the ideas are labeled as 30 or 20 votes. So 30 x 30$ = 900$ or 20 x 30 = 600$.
Just for one idea! One feature of an existing add-on! 600$! Thats 1 month salary in many countries.

Never ever can this work. For 1 upvote (30$), you can buy here solid, matured, with rich-featured addons. For 2 upvotes you can buy the best full add-ons you can get on xenforo. There is no balance in your pricing, it is over-priced as hell.

I love the idea of idea-funding, but it must be reasonable for the customers. i have at least 50 ideas I want to see in some add-ons. With that model it would cost me a fortune, like I buy a BMW or Mercedes.

The good thing about crowdfunding is, that when people join, u share the costs. I still dont understand why the prices are steady and not relative? Like lets say an idea is 100$ worth, if 10 people join, all pay 10$, if 100 people join, all pay 1$...

I don't want to tell you how to run your business, but we can't afford what you expect from us.

 

[Robust]

I did not know that you were my account mr know-it-all. Can you believe this guy lol. I do not know where you get your facts but you are wrong. I never worked with *******. The only time I had any contact with them it was when I sold all my mods to them. And that was long before it became known that they were ingaged in all kind of ****. Next time get your facts straights before you run your mouth and act like you know everything.

Why do people not pay attention to words...

Read my message over and over again until you learn the importance and meaning of "afaik".

 

[Kintaro]

The good thing about crowdfunding is, that when people join, u share the costs. I still dont understand why the prices are steady and not relative? Like lets say an idea is 100$ worth, if 10 people join, all pay 10$, if 100 people join, all pay 1$...

I don't want to tell you how to run your business, but we can't afford what you expect from us.

...and then you need to run after all that 100 people to get the 1$*.
Crowdfunding doesn't work like that... there are pledges and you can receive more than you asked. The total is not divided at the end of the campaign, each backer chose how much give.

AFAIK Indiegogo collect money instantly, Kickstarter collect only after the campaign ended successfully, so it collect credit cards (or use Amazon Payments).

Paypal refund are possible in 60 days, after that who receive the refund will pay the fees.
Stripe seams that have no time limit (https://support.stripe.com/questions/how-do-i-issue-refunds).

* @Mike Creuzer take a look at Paypal Micro Transactions (5% + 5p fee instead of the normal fee)

 

[SneakyDave]

The fact of the matter is that we keep being brought down by people wanting things for free.

I'm a bit late to this, but maybe I missed where people were demanding free products. All I've heard is that the products that were free, stay free (or "more than free"), and you charge for the support of them. I thought that was the business plan, but maybe it's changed.

 

[Jake B.]

All I've heard is that the products that were free, stay free (or "more than free"), and you charge for the support of them

That is not the case, the premium products are not free, hence the price on them. You can purchase premium support for the free add-ons, but it is included with the premium add-ons.

 

[Bionic Rooster]

That is not the case, the premium products are not free, hence the price on them.

SO what you're saying is you've taken the once free products, renamed them premium and are charging $10.00 for them? Pardon my confusion but things, wordings, explanations, seem to lack in standardization.

 

[Jake B.]

SO what you're saying is you've taken the once free products, renamed them premium and are charging $10.00 for them? Pardon my confusion but things, wordings, explanations, seem to lack in standardization.

The alternative would have likely been us not buying the add-ons, Jon still leaving but having no support for any of the add-ons. Is that preferable? I doubt it.

 

[Bionic Rooster]

The alternative would have likely been us not buying the add-ons, Jon still leaving but having no support for any of the add-ons. Is that preferable? I doubt it.

I see your point but a straight answer would be most helpful.

SO what you're saying is you've taken the once free products, renamed them premium and are charging $10.00 for them? Pardon my confusion but things, wordings, explanations, seem to lack in standardization.

Is this or is this not what you are saying?

 

[vbresults]

A xenforo license costs 140$ + Vat.

They can price at $140 because they have distribution to tens of thousands of customers. Using the available data, let's be conservative, exclude past sites, and say 2/3rds of those are valid licenses. 10,000 * $140 = $2.1M in revenue. Estimating that 50% of those renew every year, that's $600,000/yr in following revenue, excluding official add-ons.

Don't know xF's expenses and profit models, but no developer here is working with numbers like this. It's unrealistic, for logical reasons. But the expectations for third-party add-on and theme pricing seem to be in line with that nonsense, as if developers get some royalty on that $140. They don't, and developers get cannibalized, then heavy consequences follow for customers, they just build up slowly.

I don't have high hopes for this sentiment to change, only more complaints as the rubber band snaps back over and over. The previous policy on not allowing people to wear down a resource with comments about the price was good for developers, customers could send price feedback to developers privately or not buy at all, but this was bad for the XenForo team, for what's likely to be 3 reasons.

1. they were playing an unending game of whack-a-mole with these posts. 2. this probably generated complaints from customers 3. a smaller number of customers suspended their license renewals. In hindsight, if those assumptions are on the mark, it's not surprising the policy changed. The community needs a solution, one that works for everyone.

If the solution won't come from customers and it can't come from the XenForo team, it has to come from developers. If developers come together in the proportion customers do we can create solutions to a number of problems for everyone, including but not limited to standards for the handing off of add-ons, support for said add-ons, etc.

If you publish resources here, you can join a community of developers dedicated to this goal, send over a PM. We'll open it next Thursday, will reply to the PM's two days before that.

Edit: Just realized that this is derailing the thread, stopping now.

 

[HWS]

That is not the case, the premium products are not free, hence the price on them. You can purchase premium support for the free add-ons, but it is included with the premium add-ons.

The alternative would have likely been us not buying the add-ons, Jon still leaving but having no support for any of the add-ons. Is that preferable? I doubt it.

The more polite and more resonable (and if you ask me also more correct) alternative would have been that you support the add-ons first (clean the code, fix the bugs and add features) and stick a price on them after that. Even a higher price (I assume the price will raise anyway as soon as you really work with the add-ons).

Most people don't have a problem with the price but with your handling of the switch to premium. Just changing the version number and the branding, leaving all bugs like they are and ask a price for it, was a strong move for your business which depends on your customers. Do you even know how many people bought the $10 "premium" add-ons because they thought anything has changed from the free versions?

If you would have handled this correctly you would have stated in the add-ons description that those add-ons are unchanged from the former free add-ons. But you did not, tricking the people into buying the "new" add-ons. I am all in for earning money. And I also support responsible pricing which cover the costs of the coders. But -like with your idea funding payments- charging those $10 for undeclared unchanged add-ons is not the way to make people feeel good about a new business.

 

[Enguerran A]

For those arguing about the fact that Audentio put a price on their addons, are u even using them or were you planning to use them before?? I mean look, Waindogo left the buisiness leaving behind him more than 300 addons.

My thought is simple, if you downloaded one or more of his addons before, in every case, the chance to see those addons maintained was close to none so no support or new features to expect.
Now it's still the same. I mean look, if you don't want to pay for these addons, and for the support coming with, where is the problem? You can still use them but you won't get any support or new features from Audentio. It will be the same as if waindigo hadn't sell his addons right?

For those who wants to get some support, and even some new features, you have to pay for it. And to me, 10$ is fair.
So I don't really understand all that rage here.

If you would have handled this correctly you would have stated in the add-ons description that those add-ons are unchanged from the former free add-ons. But you did not, tricking the people into buying the "new" add-ons. I am all in for earning money

Now people can ask them to fix those bugs because there is a relation buyer-seller which wasn't the case before. Where is the problem?

 

[tajhay]

those who wants to get some support, and even some new features

Is it actually been confirmed that those paying for those addons or subscribing to the monthly support will get new features added to those addons? Refer to their new policy of paying to vote for enhancements to addons (paid or free).

Goodwill goes a long way for forum admins. I dislike comparing devs but have a look at how good devs like Bob conduct in adding new functionality. Users help and provide feedback on how the addon could be better. He doesnt ask for money for these suggestions and implements them if feasible and if enough people want them. All his addons are top notch, feature filled and absolutely great value for money. Id easily help support any new addon he brings out even if i have no current use for it, even if its a small way of saying thanks for all his work.

Its also a great point made earlier about why no information was stated on what had changed with the versions when they were moved from free to paid, when only the audentio/themehouse branding was the only thing changed. Totally agree that less people would have been annoyed if the bugs in those addons had been rectified before making them a paid resource.

I hope Audentio is here to stay in the community for a long time but to me it seems that the addons werent the only things inherited when Audentio took over Jons addons - the strange business philosophies have also been adopted.

Anyway people will vote with their wallets on how things flow from here on in. After trialling some of Audentio's previous original addons i know i am highly unlikely to be opening my wallet for their addons.

That said i am supportive of their themes and hopefully their support doesnt suffer as much as it has in recent times since taking over jons stuff. Hopefully there is some stability with all these rebrandings going on.

Good luck on the mammoth task. All this could have been handled far better though.

 

[Enguerran A]

Is it actually been confirmed that those paying for those addons or subscribing to the monthly support will get new features added to those addons? Refer to their new policy of paying to vote for enhancements to addons (paid or free).

$1 a vote was our original plan. But that would take a lot of upvotes to fund anything. And to be fair we do a lot of ideas for free as is, this is a way for the ones that we don't have time for to be heard.

What I understood is that this idea funding feature is for those who wants their ideas implemented in those addons. Like if I want a special option, I propose this idea, the idea get fund and then get added to the addon. I don't think they will stop implementing stuff from their own. Maybe @Mike Creuzer can clarify this point?

 

[vbresults]

The more polite and more resonable (and if you ask me also more correct) alternative would have been that you support the add-ons first (clean the code, fix the bugs and add features) and stick a price on them after that. Even a higher price (I assume the price will raise anyway as soon as you really work with the add-ons).

Who would fully fund this hypothetical cleaning of the code, fixing bugs, and adding features? If they just bet on breaking even they'd lose big. Look at the reaction they got for pricing it at $10.

Just changing the version number and the branding, leaving all bugs like they are and ask a price for it, was a strong move for your business which depends on your customers. Do you even know how many people bought the $10 "premium" add-ons because they thought anything has changed from the free versions?

AFAIK that massively under-priced $10 includes support and fixes for said bugs when they are reported. It should be closer to $50.

I am all in for earning money. And I also support responsible pricing which cover the costs of the coders. But -like with your idea funding payments- charging those $10 for undeclared unchanged add-ons is not the way to make people feeel good about a new business.

Not acknowledging what a steal $10 is for support and reported bug fixes points to not supporting responsible pricing in any way. This says nothing about the alternative of said add-ons going poof.

Is it actually been confirmed that those paying for those addons or subscribing to the monthly support will get new features added to those addons? Refer to their new policy of paying to vote for enhancements to addons (paid or free).

You are confusing receiving new features with suggesting them, that is the only way to arrive at that conclusion.

Goodwill goes a long way for forum admins. I dislike comparing devs but have a look at how good devs like Bob conduct in adding new functionality. Users help and provide feedback on how the addon could be better. He doesnt ask for money for these suggestions and implements them if feasible and if enough people want them. All his addons are top notch, feature filled and absolutely great value for money. Id easily help support any new addon he brings out even if i have no current use for it, even if its a small way of saying thanks for all his work.

I don't think this Bob has taken on hundreds of resources, many of which would have otherwise vanished, no support, no future bug fixes, nothing.

p.s. Goodwill also goes a long way for developers too. They are also watching this thread and it is not looking very good.

Its also a great point made earlier about why no information was stated on what had changed with the versions when they were moved from free to paid, when only the audentio/themehouse branding was the only thing changed. Totally agree that less people would have been annoyed if the bugs in those addons had been rectified before making them a paid resource.

More people would have been annoyed if they had to pay the full price for the time to fix those bugs, etc. More on this pricing situation in a previous post here.

I hope Audentio is here to stay in the community for a long time but to me it seems that the addons werent the only things inherited when Audentio took over Jons addons - the strange business philosophies have also been adopted.

What they inherited was the problems that caused Jon and many others to leave, and TH is trying to make it work.

All this could have been handled far better though.

Unless you want to bankrupt them of time and eventually put them out of business, if you do indeed want them to stay for a long time, this is one of the better ways to handle it.

p.p.s. $10 is way too low.

 

[Dakota Storm]

What I understood is that this idea funding feature is for those who wants their ideas implemented in those addons. Like if I want a special option, I propose this idea, the idea get fund and then get added to the addon. I don't think they will stop implementing stuff from their own. Maybe @Mike Creuzer can clarify this point?

Exactly, the way I see it is that the ideas funding is completely separate from support/updates.
Audentio are still going to support/update the addons as needed.

How anyone can confuse the two is beyond me.

 

[empire]

I think of support/updates as covering basics like bug fixes, stability improvements and making sure the add-on works with new versions of XenForo. But it's wonderful when updates also include new features that make the add-on more useful and complete. I believe the concern here is that no new ideas will be implemented unless suggested through the paid system, and that if anything new is suggested in the future, ThemeHouse will direct people to the this suggestion system rather than considering the suggestion on its own merit and implementing it simply because it makes sense.

Of course, I hope that's not the case, but it's something I was wondering as well. Will the feature funding system be used only for niche requests, or would it be used for all feature requests?