So what would you like to see next at XenForo?

I just read this thread from beginning to end.
Razasharp's response to the question of "what he'd like to see next at Xenforo" is reduced-price bulk licenses. Okay then. Not sure that's a feature for Xenforo as much as a business suggestion for the ownership, but whatever. It's not clear why that suggestion has spilled into what is now four pages, though.

What I'd like to see next for Xenforo is a built-in member map and two-factor authentication.
 
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I just read this thread from beginning to end.
Razasharp's response to the question of "what he'd like to see next at Xenforo" is reduced-price bulk licenses. Okay then. Not sure that's a feature for Xenforo as much as a business suggestion for the ownership, but whatever. It's not clear why that suggestion has spilled into what is now four pages, though.

What I'd like to see next for Xenforo is a built-in member map and two-factor authentication.

Reading the first post it's not specific to features:

For example,

A XenForo meetup / convention
More XenForo-oriented hosts
Leased Licenses
Some "behind the scenes" content
Interviews
 
I just read this thread from beginning to end.
Razasharp's response to the question of "what he'd like to see next at Xenforo" is reduced-price bulk licenses. Okay then. Not sure that's a feature for Xenforo as much as a business suggestion for the ownership, but whatever. It's not clear why that suggestion has spilled into what is now four pages, though.

What I'd like to see next for Xenforo is a built-in member map and two-factor authentication.

Tbh Sam, I'd much rather see my first suggestion brought in - proper API documentation. This would be far more valuable to me (and Xenforo) in the long run.

Re your suggestion of two-factor auth, what kind of implementation would you like to see and why? (I'm not familiar with it, but it seems a bit of an overkill for a forum?)

I like the idea of a member map - in fact I am thinking about learning MobiRuby or RubyMotion to create a location based iOS app for my site.
 
Another idea, have a part time developer work on improving and adding to the current list of importers

Add an importer for VB5 users, for one!
 
.... if you do use a 3rd party add on your at whim of the developer.

The same can be said for the core software.
Or any other product you purchase, digital or otherwise.

Yes but its less of a risk.

It's a slippery path the discussion on add-ons. I had the same experience with an add-on that I was using during vBulletin. You use it, your site depends on it, and then comes the day the developer stops or even gets missing.

That is my experience, in a nutshell. XenForo is a reputable company that is in business, with the reputation of their software to back it up. But, what are add-on developers? They are a mixed bag. Some are also professionals who are in the development business. Others are forum admins with coding experience. Some might be hobbyists, for all we know. What might be a good add-on today could turn out to be dead in the water as of the next XF release. The developer promises for weeks, months even, to fix it, and nothing gets done. Several months later, the add-on is "no longer supported." (I had this happen on our current big board with a major add-on for us--I don't appreciate being left dangling.)

When running a big board, the last thing you need is to have a heavily used add-on suddenly be removed from the forum because it quit working--that reflects poorly on me, as forum members do not know or care what a function is, or where it came from, or if it's part of the core or came by way of an add-on: they just want the forum to work properly, and for features to suddenly not appear one day. My time is very valuable and limited: I do not have time to "play games" with developers' whims. I've already revised my policy to avoid most add-ons, and to only use those from developers I know and trust.

And I must say that in my nine years of being an admin for one of the big boards I operate, the situation hasn't changed one bit from vBulletin to here. Or on any other forum platform I've used. Not much different with WordPress either. It's just the nature of the beast. The one thing it has taught me is to use as few add-ons as possible, since there's a chance the developer will up and drop support...on a whim.
 
The one thing it has taught me is to use as few add-ons as possible, since there's a chance the developer will up and drop support...on a whim.

Exactly this. If you need addons that will be a major feature of your forum it is best to use a dev who has a good reputation. I use @Waindigo and @xfrocks for all things I need done regarding addons. Both of these guys have good customer support and release quality addons. The fewer addons you need on your forum, the better.
 
I [...] have hundreds of domain names, and some of them 'could' potentially be great forums. I just can't justify the cost of a license and the time it takes to develop a skin for these sites - just to see - if they take off.
So if I'm understanding this correctly, you refuse to invest $140 and a few hours of your time in these "potentially great forums," but the developers of XenForo should give you several years worth of their work for free. So you can start potentially great forums, risk free. Got it.

Why didn't you just say that in the first place? All that typing, man...

Personally I think they should double or triple the price of the software. It would still be a bargain.
 
Personally I think they should double or triple the price of the software. It would still be a bargain.

I really don't think that would be a good idea. It would cut out a large portion of people who would normally buy the software. I think the price is reasonable at the moment. The software lacks a lot of features other forums have that is included in their price. To get around this users are forced to buy addons or have them developed, furthering the cost of setting up your forum. However, what Xenforo does it does very well.

If there was a way to increase the forum software cost and reduce extra costs for addons then it will be good. So basically give it time and allow more features to be added to Xenforo and increase the price as it grows. I think most people would be happy with this scenario.
 
Sometimes placating bottom dwellers and cheapskates isn't worth the few dollars you get from them. Ah, who am I kidding? It's never worth it.

Raise the price, raise the class of customer. Get rid of all these drooly, baseball cap wearing ne'er-do-wells and start getting some top hats and canes up in here. Class the joint up. Play some good music, have a drink. Nice steak dinner. You know what I'm saying. You'll agree later when you've had time to ruminate.
 
So if I'm understanding this correctly, you refuse to invest $140 and a few hours of your time in these "potentially great forums," but the developers of XenForo should give you several years worth of their work for free. So you can start potentially great forums, risk free. Got it.

Why didn't you just say that in the first place? All that typing, man...

Personally I think they should double or triple the price of the software. It would still be a bargain.

BOGOF - a concept you obviously don't understand. Look up the work by A Tabarrok - you might learn something.
 
Sometimes placating bottom dwellers and cheapskates isn't worth the few dollars you get from them. Ah, who am I kidding? It's never worth it.

Raise the price, raise the class of customer. Get rid of all these drooly, baseball cap wearing ne'er-do-wells and start getting some top hats and canes up in here. Class the joint up. Play some good music, have a drink. Nice steak dinner. You know what I'm saying. You'll agree later when you've had time to ruminate.

I disagree completely.

Xenforo is currently at the level (which I would consider) "Okay". Now, when I say "Okay" I am not talking about the quality of the software - that is outstanding. When I say "Okay" I mean that a lot of people can purchase the software and with a few purchased addons can set up a decent community for their niche. This would be what I would (in my opinion) be the majority of board owners. So the average board owner would need a license and a handful of addons - cool. I would also guess that the average board owner has a little bit of money to throw towards their website, but not too much.

So I would assume that most people who buy forums are looking to make a small to medium sized community without spending too much cash. Either that or they are purchasing the software for a specific requirement - either way it is a relatively small purchase. Most likely for a hobby.

If this is the case then it will mean these "drooly, baseball cap wearing ne'er-do-wells" as you call them are Xenforo's bread and butter since Xenforo does not offer an extensive range of addons in which to further make money. They will make their sales in quantity due to their pricing. So, let's for the moment get rid of these people.

Now we are left with the group who outright does not buy Xenforo and the big board owners.

So, since the first group is not buying the software, let's get rid of them. Now we are left with only the big board owners who would more than likely be happy to spend big on Xenforo. So, now Xenforo is $450 for a forum license - no problem. However, the software is still not feature extensive and these owners will need to either develop addons to suit their requirements (as they are big boards and will probably not run an unmodified xF installation) or they will need to hire someone to develop them.

The problem is that since Xenforo has cut out a large chunk of their potential customers, addon developers have gone elsewhere to develop addons for companies who are still affordable to drooly, baseball cap wearing ne'er-do-wells. This means that the big board owner needs to pay bigger dollars for someone to develop their addon or they need to spend the time doing it themselves (if they know how to).

So now Xenforo not only limited their potential customers, but they also killed their community of addons to expand on their product. So, they can either start selling to the drooly, baseball cap wearing ne'er-do-wells again, or they can extend Xenforo to suit every single admins requirement which will cost the development team more time and in turn bring the cost up again.

This is all just hypothetical and a guess and I may need to shut the #$@@ up since I don't know what I am talking about. But I would say it is a pretty good guess.
 
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The thing about BOGOF is that it does not apply equally in every market. Yes, you're getting two for the 'price' of one, though of course you're accepting that the price you're paying is really for two of something, and that will have been factored in already in terms of pricing.

So let me turn it around. If Apple, for the sake of argument, offered you two iPhones for the price of one, would you take it? (Of course, if you don't like Apple, substitute your preferred phone supplier and preferred expensive phone model) Could you make use of two phones? Seems unlikely, but there are of course cases where buying in bulk does make sense, e.g. corporate buying. But as a general rule of sale, BOGOF does not work there.

Does it work for forum software? Good question. The real question, then: do the majority of users want or need multiple licences? Clearly some people do. I suspect, however, the majority actually do not, and so the real BOGOF model doesn't work (since then they're effectively paying over the odds for something they don't actually want or need)

The thing is, you're arguing about BOGOF but buy-5-get-5-free is not BOGOF by definition. 2-for-1 is quite different to 10-for-5, especially when you're dealing with a product that by definition is artificially inflated scarcity (it costs virtually nothing to create a new licensed of XenForo, per se)

The thing I can't help but think when I see your post is not 'this would be good for XenForo' but 'it would be good for me'. Here's the thing: Ashley was the business guy for Jelsoft, and clearly has an understanding of the market conditions in which XenForo operates. He would have known the figures for vBulletin's operations back in the day and it's not surprising that a very significant number of vBulletin licencees became XenForo licencees. That's a useful amount of data to have already, as well as having an understanding of how typical users actually run sites, i.e. how many licences per licencee.

The other question: will it actually translate into more money for XF in the long term? Answer is probably not as positive as you'd think. Let's suppose that a 10-for-5 deal did exist. Someone dropping enough cash for 5 licences is probably going to be busy enough running those 5 forums for a while and not expanding to 10 forums for a bit, which means it's possible that the first year's maintenance could lapse on some or all of those "free" licences. Which means of the 10 licences acquired, it seems unlikely all 10 will generate the full set of licence renewal fees. In fact, I'd almost go as far as to suggest they won't in almost any case: unless ALL of the original 5 purchases achieve some definition of success for the owner, they'll shut down the less successful ones and repurpose the licence(s), meaning that while there are 10 licences active, it is quite possible that only the 5 actually purchased will be in use at any one time, to the point where the purchaser doesn't gain anything, but if they do subsequently ramp up in future, it's going to take a while for XenForo to see any extra income out of those extra sales, if they do at all - as opposed to the current options for purchasing 5 forums.

See, part of the reason XF forums are generally quite successful is because of the investment. Gotta get your money's worth and all that. Free forum systems do not have the same buy-in and most fail at some point as a result. But if you're effectively encouraging more licences at no extra cost for the user, they're not going to have the same motivation, meaning that the extra forums may not be as successful anyway...

Long story short, I don't believe BOGOF (or even 10-for-5, which isn't really a BOGOF deal) is actually advantageous for XF, but I can see why it might be for you, even though there are already bulk discounts available.
 
Re your suggestion of two-factor auth, what kind of implementation would you like to see and why? (I'm not familiar with it, but it seems a bit of an overkill for a forum?)

I think it's not overkill to offer a basic security function. All that's required to gain access to many forum user accounts is to have access to the email address that's associated with the user. And since we're in the days where common email hosts and individual user accounts are compromised every day, it could only benefit users to have the option to have a second authentication factor needed to get into the secondary site accounts that are linked to it. Lots and lots of sites are integrating two-factor for just this reason. In fact there was an ArsTechnica article about it today.

Now, I do realize that there is at least one Resource that enables two-factor in Xenforo. I have it installed and use it. But I think this kind of security function ought to be in the core, instead of being reliant on a 3rd party developer. (for many reasons more eloquently illustrated above)

As to the implementation, that can be versatile. The API's for some of the more common time-based token-generators is available for public/private use. Several of them could be supported, and the end-user can choose the one they happen to prefer. (Google Authenticator, Authy, Yubi-Key, etc, etc)

edit - It's a shame that this thread is in the weeds over the pricing discussion, which is entirely at the discretion of the owners anyway.
 
BOGOF - a concept you obviously don't understand. Look up the work by A Tabarrok - you might learn something.
Tabarrok supports the use of BOGO for products with nominal prices, and that their strength lies in that the price can be raised during the promotion to help eat the "loss". His examples are mostly made up of things such as shirts and pizza, both which cost nickels when purchased or produced in bulk, and not products like XenForo that require continually development and updates to stay profitable.
 
As to the pricing discussion, I can't speak for anyone else, but I do own multiple licenses (6 at the moment) and I'm perfectly happy with the bulk discounts that are in place now.

Back to the original question, I'd love to see some xenforo conventions/meetups, although I'm not sure how this could happen without the members organizing something ourselves. I'm happy to try and get something going for Melbourne.
 
I forgot to respond with something that was more on topic...

I'd like to see some more refinement made to the styling system, especially in regards to typography (http://xenforo.com/community/threads/easier-font-size-styling.50928/) and other areas.

I would like to see some global style properties for font-family, font-size, and border-radius (these are all I can think of now).

Because XenForo is now responsive, I strongly believe font-sizes should be overhauled and the rem unit size should be adopted rather than the mix of pt, px and em sizes currently used (theres an attached file with a lot of the font-sizes used by XenForo included in the above link).

I would hope for the navigation and header to be overhauled to be simpler to work with. While workable, theres a learning curve that can be dissuasive and frustrating (I can post many a rant by Kim about how much she hates the navigation ;)).
 
The thing about BOGOF is that it does not apply equally in every market. Yes, you're getting two for the 'price' of one, though of course you're accepting that the price you're paying is really for two of something, and that will have been factored in already in terms of pricing.

So let me turn it around. If Apple, for the sake of argument, offered you two iPhones for the price of one, would you take it? (Of course, if you don't like Apple, substitute your preferred phone supplier and preferred expensive phone model) Could you make use of two phones? Seems unlikely, but there are of course cases where buying in bulk does make sense, e.g. corporate buying. But as a general rule of sale, BOGOF does not work there.

Does it work for forum software? Good question. The real question, then: do the majority of users want or need multiple licences? Clearly some people do. I suspect, however, the majority actually do not, and so the real BOGOF model doesn't work (since then they're effectively paying over the odds for something they don't actually want or need)

The thing is, you're arguing about BOGOF but buy-5-get-5-free is not BOGOF by definition. 2-for-1 is quite different to 10-for-5, especially when you're dealing with a product that by definition is artificially inflated scarcity (it costs virtually nothing to create a new licensed of XenForo, per se)

The thing I can't help but think when I see your post is not 'this would be good for XenForo' but 'it would be good for me'. Here's the thing: Ashley was the business guy for Jelsoft, and clearly has an understanding of the market conditions in which XenForo operates. He would have known the figures for vBulletin's operations back in the day and it's not surprising that a very significant number of vBulletin licencees became XenForo licencees. That's a useful amount of data to have already, as well as having an understanding of how typical users actually run sites, i.e. how many licences per licencee.

The other question: will it actually translate into more money for XF in the long term? Answer is probably not as positive as you'd think. Let's suppose that a 10-for-5 deal did exist. Someone dropping enough cash for 5 licences is probably going to be busy enough running those 5 forums for a while and not expanding to 10 forums for a bit, which means it's possible that the first year's maintenance could lapse on some or all of those "free" licences. Which means of the 10 licences acquired, it seems unlikely all 10 will generate the full set of licence renewal fees. In fact, I'd almost go as far as to suggest they won't in almost any case: unless ALL of the original 5 purchases achieve some definition of success for the owner, they'll shut down the less successful ones and repurpose the licence(s), meaning that while there are 10 licences active, it is quite possible that only the 5 actually purchased will be in use at any one time, to the point where the purchaser doesn't gain anything, but if they do subsequently ramp up in future, it's going to take a while for XenForo to see any extra income out of those extra sales, if they do at all - as opposed to the current options for purchasing 5 forums.

See, part of the reason XF forums are generally quite successful is because of the investment. Gotta get your money's worth and all that. Free forum systems do not have the same buy-in and most fail at some point as a result. But if you're effectively encouraging more licences at no extra cost for the user, they're not going to have the same motivation, meaning that the extra forums may not be as successful anyway...

Long story short, I don't believe BOGOF (or even 10-for-5, which isn't really a BOGOF deal) is actually advantageous for XF, but I can see why it might be for you, even though there are already bulk discounts available.

Thanks for joining in, you make some good points, and it's nice to finally have a grown up discussion about this.

Ok, let's start with what we agree on. BOGOF is indeed buy one get one free, and the price, isn't really of one - it's of two. You're also quite right in saying BOGOF (in its simplest form) wouldn't be a great idea for Xenforo. Why? Well first lets examine why people offer BOGOFs to begin with (generally, not always, but generally) it isn't to shift two units. It's to shift a unit, i.e. get a sale, full stop. A classic example can be seen in your local supermarket. You go in for a bottle of Coke, and next to it is Pepsi. Coke costs 5% more, but that's fine - Coke is what you prefer so you're happy to pay the difference. Now, imagine if Pepsi were doing a BOGOF promotion this week - their sales will almost certainly obliterate those of Coke in that period. While the die-hard Coke fans who simply must have Coke will still buy it, you will probably find almost everyone else will go for Pepsi. BOGOFs work, and they work very very well in this context.

Obviously businesses don't see this as 'giving one away for free', they simply split the difference - and see it as two items of stock shifted for X amount (and that is the correct way to look at it). The most valuable thing here, is that they are shifting stock (and still making a profit - although sometimes it's worth making a loss, but we won't get into that here). Now I said that's generally the case - to get people to buy your product, but there are other cases where such offers are actually used for shifting two items of stock instead of one - and that's where they inflate the price of one to begin with, and just make it sound like a good deal by offering BOGOF.

So back to why, in its simplest form, buy one licence get one license free wouldn't be a great idea for XF. Two main reasons here. Firstly, XF doesn't need to manipulate people to buy XF instead of the competition - so they're not trying to make sale. XF speaks for itself, and if people don't need the extra bits IPB and vB offer, XF is probably the best choice. Second reason is that there is a good chance people will buy two licences - even if in the near future. So again one and one free doesn't really make sense. What about two and two free? Three and three free? Five and five free? The chances of people buying that many decrease significantly (especially in a single transaction) so you're not hurting sales you would likely get anyway - but are creating new sales opportunities that you almost certainly would not be getting. Btw, I am not saying people don't buy that many - this offer isn't for those who *do* or who will buy that many anyway (they probably already have that many anyway) it's about making the offer so appealing that it twists the arms of those who would love to, but for various reasons would *not* be buying this many (and I reckon that is quite a few).

You are also right in saying B5G5F isn't really a bogof (as demonstrated above). B5G5F is really, shifting 10 units in a single transaction (and with other benefits such as restricted transfers) at half the usual price. The only reason I choose to utilise the BOGOF concept, is because they are very effective and extremely appealing to the customer. What would appeal more to you? Buy 5 get 5 free? Or Buy ten for half price. There is also another reason why B5G5F is a better fit - because by using the word 'free' and by saying half the stock is free, allows you to add restrictions (such as to license transfers) that would otherwise be unacceptable. It's the little things like this that need to be taken into consideration.

I hope that helps explain the semantics, and why tweaking BOGOF was a better fit than simply saying 10 for half price.

The only disappointing part of your post really, is the last paragraph - where you completely ignore the advantages. Let's create a list of pros and cons - as really that is the only rational way to ascertain the merit of any offer. I'll start on the pros, you (or anyone else) are free to add to the cons. I don't mind taking you all on :p

Pros:

  • $700 in a single transaction
  • - significant boost in revenue - just 100 people taking up the offer results in sales of $70,000
  • Potentially 10 new XF forums out there
  • - inbound links from these new forums
  • - each install acts as an advert for XF
  • Potential conversions from other forum platforms
  • - less competitor's forums out there
  • - less established competitors forums out there
  • - more XF forums out there
  • - more established XF forums out there
  • Creating new sales opportunities - sales that are unlikely otherwise (even throughout the life-cycle of a customer)
  • - people starting up XF forums where they might not have otherwise, some of these might become big-boards/adverts for XF
  • - people converting forums that they may not have otherwise
  • Using B5G5F allows for restrictions on transfers - less worry about resale of licences or the offer being abused

That's for starters anyway. I will be interested to see your list of cons.
 
Taking the same pro and dressing it up in multiple slightly different ways doesn't make multiple pros. Thing is, I already made my list of cons, I don't exactly feel the need to regurgitate it in bullet-point form to try to make my case...
 
Nuances matter. Each are worthy in their own right - and I have clearly marked some as linked.

I didn't think a list would be forthcoming.
 
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