I think the "Monday" announcement was an internal miscommunication on our execution and is the original statement a few pages earlier. Sorry to ruin the excitement.
Audent.io
- Thread starter Dad.
- Start date
To add on to @Lukas W. 's statement..
I'm a bit of a workaholic, and have more than a few side-hustles (couple of websites, photography, art, music production, writing, and used to also make half my living as a street performer).
For some projects, I have a simple goal.. One website (a gaming news/guide site) I just use to cover hosting costs at the moment with ad revenue, and eventually cover other costs of the games I love to play to a limited extent.
When I launched it, I was putting out multiple pieces of content a day, and also playing games that I wasn't interested in but felt like I had to cover because they were in the niche the site was about. I was paying out the nose for hosting, and was trying to figure out if I could afford to invest in other hardware (multiple consoles or VR).
It didn't take long before I realized the value just wasn't there, so I scaled it back. Now, I just cover a few select games, but put more effort into that coverage.. And the results are after less than a year I'm covering it's hosting costs, and will soon be covering the hosting costs of both of my websites.
If I were looking to make a living off of it, though? Forget it! I'd have to expand from the little niche of gaming I'm covering, have way more ads, and just spend a lot of time killing my joy of gaming.
Instead, I found a balance where I can have fun, play my games, and am basically doing what I would've done already, just with a little more time and elbow grease in delivery.
It works for that, and there are plenty of people who are like me in that regard when it comes to XF dev.
Working in a niche like XenForo specifically, sure.. If someone were really, REALLY passionate about XenForo, cut the team down to the bare minimum (or just be one person), anybody could probably do it with enough core talent and up-front investment to get established. We've seen that with a lot of devs here.
The problem is, that team's success relies on XenForo's success. XenForo needs to continue to grab market share and grow. Then, the team has to compete with other teams looking to capitalize on that growing market (which isn't a bad thing, but then you get all these fun little perceived rivalries that, from my perspective, are just hilariously off-base).
What if XenForo decides to change gears like Audentio?
Well, that team would be in not too dissimilar a position than you all. In fact, that sort of thing has happened (vBulletin's shift, for example).
The key thing to note is that we're not disappearing. We're not abandoning our clients. Just the fact that we've extended support, are offering lines of communication should you have a need/issue, and are still developing for XF is what seems to be missed.
When people claim we're only in it for the money essentially, well.. Wow. Have you actually had a personal conversation with anybody on the team? Because yeah, we all want a paycheck to have a home, pay bills, etc., but we also just love building cool stuff. We're absolutely passionate about what we do.
Just today, I've had multiple conversations with coworkers about work-related stuff, even though we're off on the weekends. Cool work stuff. Things that bring a spark of joy in our minds. Hell, I started my day today at 6 AM with working on some code for one my own websites, then shifted to studying React Native (because you never stop learning as a developer), and then shifted to.. Ok, well, I played the new Ghost of Tsushima Director's Cut (but, in fairness, it's so I can cover it on my website as well as just have fun playing it). And, of course, I'm here, talking to you all (even though most of who know me probably know me from tickets - hopefully having good experiences
).
My girlfriend probably hates me right now because I'm not in bed yet and am instead talking to you all
We're passionate creators. I myself don't make huge amounts of bank, but I honestly don't care (although I will say Audentio has paid me better than any other gig I've ever worked, but that's because I've typically worked for really bad churn & burn places.. Another story for another time). I get to build really, really cool stuff pretty regularly, especially since I tend to hop around and fill in roles wherever I'm needed.
Could we just keep the status quo and coast along? Sure, we could.. But then, let me ask you this.
Why did you start your community? Weren't you satisfied with the status quo? Why not stick with what was established already?
I think that most people here can agree that complacency isn't a good thing. We all want to learn, grow, do more, and better.
Sure, change can be difficult, and there can be an impact that may not be seen as positive to others, but unfortunately it happens.
Alright, I'm rambling, and need to get back to my book I was reading. Have a good night (or morning, or afternoon, depending on timezone) everybody
I'm a bit of a workaholic, and have more than a few side-hustles (couple of websites, photography, art, music production, writing, and used to also make half my living as a street performer).
For some projects, I have a simple goal.. One website (a gaming news/guide site) I just use to cover hosting costs at the moment with ad revenue, and eventually cover other costs of the games I love to play to a limited extent.
When I launched it, I was putting out multiple pieces of content a day, and also playing games that I wasn't interested in but felt like I had to cover because they were in the niche the site was about. I was paying out the nose for hosting, and was trying to figure out if I could afford to invest in other hardware (multiple consoles or VR).
It didn't take long before I realized the value just wasn't there, so I scaled it back. Now, I just cover a few select games, but put more effort into that coverage.. And the results are after less than a year I'm covering it's hosting costs, and will soon be covering the hosting costs of both of my websites.
If I were looking to make a living off of it, though? Forget it! I'd have to expand from the little niche of gaming I'm covering, have way more ads, and just spend a lot of time killing my joy of gaming.
Instead, I found a balance where I can have fun, play my games, and am basically doing what I would've done already, just with a little more time and elbow grease in delivery.
It works for that, and there are plenty of people who are like me in that regard when it comes to XF dev.
Working in a niche like XenForo specifically, sure.. If someone were really, REALLY passionate about XenForo, cut the team down to the bare minimum (or just be one person), anybody could probably do it with enough core talent and up-front investment to get established. We've seen that with a lot of devs here.
The problem is, that team's success relies on XenForo's success. XenForo needs to continue to grab market share and grow. Then, the team has to compete with other teams looking to capitalize on that growing market (which isn't a bad thing, but then you get all these fun little perceived rivalries that, from my perspective, are just hilariously off-base).
What if XenForo decides to change gears like Audentio?
Well, that team would be in not too dissimilar a position than you all. In fact, that sort of thing has happened (vBulletin's shift, for example).
The key thing to note is that we're not disappearing. We're not abandoning our clients. Just the fact that we've extended support, are offering lines of communication should you have a need/issue, and are still developing for XF is what seems to be missed.
When people claim we're only in it for the money essentially, well.. Wow. Have you actually had a personal conversation with anybody on the team? Because yeah, we all want a paycheck to have a home, pay bills, etc., but we also just love building cool stuff. We're absolutely passionate about what we do.
Just today, I've had multiple conversations with coworkers about work-related stuff, even though we're off on the weekends. Cool work stuff. Things that bring a spark of joy in our minds. Hell, I started my day today at 6 AM with working on some code for one my own websites, then shifted to studying React Native (because you never stop learning as a developer), and then shifted to.. Ok, well, I played the new Ghost of Tsushima Director's Cut (but, in fairness, it's so I can cover it on my website as well as just have fun playing it). And, of course, I'm here, talking to you all (even though most of who know me probably know me from tickets - hopefully having good experiences
).My girlfriend probably hates me right now because I'm not in bed yet and am instead talking to you all
We're passionate creators. I myself don't make huge amounts of bank, but I honestly don't care (although I will say Audentio has paid me better than any other gig I've ever worked, but that's because I've typically worked for really bad churn & burn places.. Another story for another time). I get to build really, really cool stuff pretty regularly, especially since I tend to hop around and fill in roles wherever I'm needed.
Could we just keep the status quo and coast along? Sure, we could.. But then, let me ask you this.
Why did you start your community? Weren't you satisfied with the status quo? Why not stick with what was established already?
I think that most people here can agree that complacency isn't a good thing. We all want to learn, grow, do more, and better.
Sure, change can be difficult, and there can be an impact that may not be seen as positive to others, but unfortunately it happens.
Alright, I'm rambling, and need to get back to my book I was reading. Have a good night (or morning, or afternoon, depending on timezone) everybody
@Mike Creuzer
I’ve got a call setup for Tuesday at 2:30’ish CST with Alex I believe concerning Feeds and a few other small items. Will you or @Sarah Worthylake Apel be able to attend?
Reason I ask is there’s a TON of words in this thread commenting on the decision which I personally am not concerned with. Im concerned with what’s the plan for the future. I read the post on Themehouse and have a few additional questions for you as details were a bit scarce.
I’ve got a call setup for Tuesday at 2:30’ish CST with Alex I believe concerning Feeds and a few other small items. Will you or @Sarah Worthylake Apel be able to attend?
Reason I ask is there’s a TON of words in this thread commenting on the decision which I personally am not concerned with. Im concerned with what’s the plan for the future. I read the post on Themehouse and have a few additional questions for you as details were a bit scarce.
D
Deleted member 232995
Guest
I am fascinated by the attitudes of many.
Arguing with hobby project and too expensive add-ons. Many expect free add-ons.
But sorry with what right? Why get something for free? Just because times has chosen an expensive hobby?
How would this be in the case of modeling? Do you expect things for free - "Hey, I want this loco for free. It's too expensive for me"? This stingy, anti-social behavior - wanting everything for free is a big problem in the software scene. In no other area is there so much push for free as in this one.
There are far more expensive hobbies. But with software everything should be free and best of all the manufacturer should be available around the clock. A funny world we live in. HAVE HAVE HAVE for it but give nothing! I myself have a few free add-ons and know what I'm talking about. I don't even expect a donation, it makes me happy when people use my add-ons and it helps them. But times Tacheles. For all my free add-ons 2 people have left a donation. I think it is quite unbalanced. It is expected and used for free, but not even looked over the edge of the plate what it has cost in work, time, etc..
Should mean gratitude can and should never expect times as a manufacturer, whether paid or free software.
"Ingratitude is the world's reward"
Now you may hate me
Arguing with hobby project and too expensive add-ons. Many expect free add-ons.
But sorry with what right? Why get something for free? Just because times has chosen an expensive hobby?
How would this be in the case of modeling? Do you expect things for free - "Hey, I want this loco for free. It's too expensive for me"? This stingy, anti-social behavior - wanting everything for free is a big problem in the software scene. In no other area is there so much push for free as in this one.
There are far more expensive hobbies. But with software everything should be free and best of all the manufacturer should be available around the clock. A funny world we live in. HAVE HAVE HAVE for it but give nothing! I myself have a few free add-ons and know what I'm talking about. I don't even expect a donation, it makes me happy when people use my add-ons and it helps them. But times Tacheles. For all my free add-ons 2 people have left a donation. I think it is quite unbalanced. It is expected and used for free, but not even looked over the edge of the plate what it has cost in work, time, etc..
Should mean gratitude can and should never expect times as a manufacturer, whether paid or free software.
"Ingratitude is the world's reward"
Now you may hate me
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Just charge for the watermark addon. It seems like a legit paid product IMO.
Kirby, please forgive me - but just to get closer to the facts: As an agricultural master in 2013, I earned around € 1,600 net (+ vacation pay (1 month's salary)) and for this I mostly went to work 7 days a week, mostly from 7:30 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., but often from 7:30 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. during the season !!
And I wasn't that badly off as an employee in my line of business.
The average wage in Germany, which is so often quoted, unfortunately only reflects a fraction of the truth. The fact is that a large part in Germany earns considerably less than you stated, but a part in what you say and a small part earns drastically more. And this small part of the (high earners) pulls the average upwards.
In my circle of acquaintances there are very few who earn anything close to the so-called average wage and very, very few who are above it.
Therefore - to use this number as a basis for calculation I consider, with all due respect, to be silly and wrong.
But it would actually be interesting to do an anonymous survey how much each Xenforo admin actually earns. Should I be completely wrong with my thesis and yours are correct - I apologize to you and from now on I claim the opposite.
D
Deleted member 232995
Guest
In the end, however, income has nothing to do with the "mania to want everything for free". No matter whether one earns little or much. Who wants to have something, must provide a counterpart. Who can not or will not, he must look for another hobby. But to carry out his financial problems on other people's backs is not fair.
And I'm miles away on the average wage
If you mean me - I hope not, but if you mean me, then you are completely wrong with me.I am fascinated by the attitudes of many.
Arguing with hobby project and too expensive add-ons. Many expect free add-ons.
But sorry with what right? Why get something for free? Just because times has chosen an expensive hobby?
How would this be in the case of modeling? Do you expect things for free - "Hey, I want this loco for free. It's too expensive for me"? This stingy, anti-social behavior - wanting everything for free is a big problem in the software scene. In no other area is there so much push for free as in this one.
There are far more expensive hobbies. But with software everything should be free and best of all the manufacturer should be available around the clock. A funny world we live in. HAVE HAVE HAVE for it but give nothing! I myself have a few free add-ons and know what I'm talking about. I don't even expect a donation, it makes me happy when people use my add-ons and it helps them. But times Tacheles. For all my free add-ons 2 people have left a donation. I think it is quite unbalanced. It is expected and used for free, but not even looked over the edge of the plate what it has cost in work, time, etc..
Should mean gratitude can and should never expect times as a manufacturer, whether paid or free software.
"Ingratitude is the world's reward"
Now you may hate me
It occurs to me that I wanted to have donated and I forgot - I will of course make up for that. My mistake.
Of course I'm also happy about free add-ons, I come from the phpBB and "old" vB times, when it was still coded for fame and honor and paid add-ons were numerically inferior. That this era is over is clear, everyone should understand that.
And yes - like everyone else, I have to calculate, even with my hobby. Unfortunately I cannot print any money.
But if I can't or don't want to afford something because I think it's overpriced, then I won't buy it. Because of that I would never go to one of the (far too many!) Warez sites to get what I can't / don't want to afford at the moment. That is my personal understanding of fair play.But as a developer you shouldn't be completely devastated if the market doesn't allow for your own costs and / or price expectations. That's just the way it is and then you just have to leave it or if you just enjoy it, continue.
All I wanted to say was: I think that the market for forum software will not grow if it is offered too high a price. And the same goes for addons. If I set the price too high, things can go well and customers either accept the price or not. But if they don't accept it, you have to live with the fact that they walk around and tell around how expensive they find this or that. And this (bad) advertising will then have an impact on the market again and the possible margin may shrink further.
But that doesn't mean that I now demand all add-ons have to be free or cheaper. Basically, I think the current prices for most (not all!) Addons and especially for Xenforo are very OK.
Since this is german income, wouldn't the unit kilometer be more correct?And I'm miles away on the average wage
Not necessarily true. I have released around 225 free addons for XF2 and around 120 paid addons, do my free addons far outweigh my paid ones.
... me too.And I'm miles away on the average wage
And apart from software, it doesn't work any differently than here. I'm in retail and there you have customers who prefer not to pay anything but want full service. But there are also "normal customers" and customers who are even willing to pay more for good service.
I also know that practically all of our competitors charge higher prices than we do, even though we (is my subjective observation) offer the better service.
Nevertheless, we do not raise the prices to the limit of pain because we want to work according to the motto: live and let live (fair play). And so far the customers have honored this, and our company is growing. Not by leaps and bounds, but steadily.
You also have to keep in mind that we here in Germany shouldn't complain at all. I think for an admin from Romania € 20 is something different than for an admin from Germany, France or England.
And you shouldn't forget that there are also quite a few developers who do not come from Germany or the EU and who are worth € 20 more than for us here.
I think there's not just black and white in all of this - you're right, no, I'm right ... but a very large gray area.
D
Deleted member 232995
Guest
No. I thought we were looking at the problem in general! This has nothing to do with you
I don't think this era is over! You can see that here, too. A lot of people put them online for free!
The problem is that there are still ass-kickings for being free! And you have to ask yourself as a producer, is it worth it? Because the free producer has the same effort as the producer who works for money per se.
I don't understand this era of wanting and getting everything for free. Explain to me why people in the software scene expect it or think the era is over?
Why is software worth less than bread?
To add to this, there is 200 pages of free addons here and 69 pages of paid addons, so right around 3-1 free vs paid.
EDIT: For XF2 there is 66 pages of free addons and 53 pages of paid addons, so much closer in numbers free vs paid.
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Yes - there are obviously developers like you too. I mean (I'd have to look) I have both free and paid addons from you in use.
But I usually rarely need support as long as the add-ons do what they are supposed to do. : D
D
Deleted member 232995
Guest
We are not in Germany here - we are global.
Everyone thinks only up to their nose, but we are all in a big pool here, regardless of origin.
Origin should be even less of an argument. The basis is, no matter if someone comes from GER, GB, etc., software and that's what it's all about.
The Germans have leased the right to complain at a high level
That's sadly true...The Germans have leased the right to complain at a high level
Just make sure you include an option for those who run small sites on donations with volunteer staff. Not all forum admins are making money on it and not all forums have a steady revenue stream. Speaking from experience here.
What scares me is... why now? Like some other members commented on, Themehouse was doing videos with Xenforo and deeply rooted in the Xenforo ecosystem. They just release their new 'ACE' theme and addons. They were doing big skins for some major forums out there. Then out of the blue, they drop everything. Why? Do they know something about Xenforo that we don't know? Then there is no new versions being announced from Xenforo. It's kind of scary. Are people going to start to bail from Xenforo now in a mass exodus like the Vbulletin days? Someone hold me.
D
Deleted member 232995
Guest
This is not a reasonable argument. Every charitable organisation can only tackle the things that it can financially support. If they have no money they can't do anything! If you don't have money to buy bread, you don't expect them to give it to you for free! I think it's good that things are given and received for free. But this should not be an expectation and a basis.
And if you think you are running a forum, you have to make compromises. If I buy a car and want to have extensions, I don't expect them to be free. WHY is this different in the software sector?
In my opinion the core problem is not the addon prices or the support of those addons. No matter if you charge 10 $ for an addon or 100 $ addon.
You are supposed to get the money by selling a bulk of that. THAT's how you are supposed to make profit. See it like app transactions. All the apps charge small amount of money like cents or couple of dollars yet they make a ton of money. Because there is a huge userbase.
So the core problem is the shrinking userbase on XF. This forum was filled with people in 2010-2013 and it declined so much. Now in 2021 I see the same 30 users every day. Where are all the people? What did XF do to prevent this? I think more than before all old vB forums switch over to XF yet we don't see much activity on here. Why? I see a dead resources section for 1-2 years now. Same couple of devs releasing some stuff and even them don't do that anymore. And now TH semi-leaves, too. XF just doesn't care enough. You all could charge 300 $ for an addon, and it will make no difference. There are not enough people to buy stuff. But we keep ignoring this. No enthusiasm from XF, no progress, no new campaigns, no ads. I want that XF thrives more and more yet it is the opposite. I was excited to see Audentio and XF corporating together, thought maybe we'll get some faster and cool progress, yet we see them going away from XF. If this is not concerning, that your biggest 3rd-party vendor is leaving XF, what is? But yeah, the migration business is blooming...
You are supposed to get the money by selling a bulk of that. THAT's how you are supposed to make profit. See it like app transactions. All the apps charge small amount of money like cents or couple of dollars yet they make a ton of money. Because there is a huge userbase.
So the core problem is the shrinking userbase on XF. This forum was filled with people in 2010-2013 and it declined so much. Now in 2021 I see the same 30 users every day. Where are all the people? What did XF do to prevent this? I think more than before all old vB forums switch over to XF yet we don't see much activity on here. Why? I see a dead resources section for 1-2 years now. Same couple of devs releasing some stuff and even them don't do that anymore. And now TH semi-leaves, too. XF just doesn't care enough. You all could charge 300 $ for an addon, and it will make no difference. There are not enough people to buy stuff. But we keep ignoring this. No enthusiasm from XF, no progress, no new campaigns, no ads. I want that XF thrives more and more yet it is the opposite. I was excited to see Audentio and XF corporating together, thought maybe we'll get some faster and cool progress, yet we see them going away from XF. If this is not concerning, that your biggest 3rd-party vendor is leaving XF, what is? But yeah, the migration business is blooming...
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