XF 2.4 general discussion, feedback, complaints, random off topic posts, etc.

I don't remember where I saw it but Matt M (one of the founders) actually said this, it's not me speculating that this is their reasoning.
I think what you maybe referring to was actually posted on their forum by another senior member of staff, Charles. His exact words were...

'one huge area of abuse on the old way was people not renewing for 3 years, paying $50, and then getting 3 years worth of new software.'
 
Just like those car owners who don't buy a new car every year and then 10 years later buy a new car with all the latest technology.

How dare they.
This statement makes perfect sense to me. By the way when will version 2.4 be released, my license will expire this December. I will be very miserable if I can't get the update.
 
I think what you maybe referring to was actually posted on their forum by another senior member of staff, Charles. His exact words were...

'one huge area of abuse on the old way was people not renewing for 3 years, paying $50, and then getting 3 years worth of new software.'
I rarely go to the official community, and Matt interacts on the places I have frequented more than Charles does - but I could still have sworn it was a Matt post I saw. (I can't easily search TAZ since his account is deleted, and I'm not trawling through Admin Junkies at this point.)

Just like those car owners who don't buy a new car every year and then 10 years later buy a new car with all the latest technology.
False equivalence fallacy. A car is expected to last a number of years in a way a software investment never is.

Getting back to XF specifically, it has been suggested in some quarters that this is the reason 2.3 was perceived as significantly buggier than previous x.y+1.0 releases because 3 years between significant releases was hurting the bottom line. A problem you wouldn't have if the licences were not renewable after a 2 year period.
 
This statement makes perfect sense to me. By the way when will version 2.4 be released, my license will expire this December. I will be very miserable if I can't get the update.

I would say there is nearly a 0% chance of 2.4 coming out before the end of the year. XenForo offered a once in a blue moon discount for renewals last December so a large portion of there customer base's subscriptions now go up just before the end of the year. It would be a large financial loss to them (at least short term) if they put out a minor release before 12/31/2024.
 
XenForo offered a once in a blue moon discount for renewals last December so a large portion of there customer base's subscriptions now go up just before the end of the year.
The hole in your reasoning is that if many did what I did and renewed for multiple years while the sale was on, there may not be as many coming due next month as you think. And Xenforo must know how widespread that was.
 
The hole in your reasoning is that if many did what I did and renewed for multiple years while the sale was on, there may not be as many coming due next month as you think. And Xenforo must know how widespread that was.
I would say the hole in your reasoning is if someone is actually concerned with getting a discount, they are also not the most likely to be making multiple year renewals. Either way, yes XenForo knows the numbers and exactly what they are doing and we will never know.
 
There’s always implications of some sort of pre-calculation related to renewal fees.

I would expect you’re right @Mendalla. There is intentionally no limit to the number of renewals you can stack. It is there to be used. To be honest it matters so little I’m not sure we have any reporting that would tell us if you’re right or not.

Ultimately, the discount was for a very much more simple reason. We (thankfully rarely) have to raise our prices, and making sure people have advance notice of this is fair, and pairing that with a sale is a good way to soften the blow. There’s literally no further thought to it than that. We don’t sit around and figure out when the most lucrative time is for renewals to hit, we have better things to do with our time.

While the pre-rise sales are always popular, it also doesn’t necessarily translate into higher renewals on the subsequent anniversaries. People don’t have to renew when their license expires and my understanding is, which seems to buck the trend of many of our competitors, we’re still comfortable with people delaying their renewals as long as they want.

The onus is on us to give them something to renew their license for. Sometimes that’s maintenance releases, sometimes indeed that might be the moment it expires, but often it is going to be major upgrades and that’s fine and great.

There’s no deeper thinking than that.
 
I reckon you should look at offering a discount if clients choose to renew their licenses early.
It could be something along the line of a voucher

"here's a $50 voucher for you to use for your next license renewal. You have 2 months to use it."

A bit like what you get when you pay for your pet food you often get vouchers which mean cash off a particular order for the month.
 
There’s always implications of some sort of pre-calculation related to renewal fees.

I would expect you’re right @Mendalla. There is intentionally no limit to the number of renewals you can stack. It is there to be used. To be honest it matters so little I’m not sure we have any reporting that would tell us if you’re right or not.

Ultimately, the discount was for a very much more simple reason. We (thankfully rarely) have to raise our prices, and making sure people have advance notice of this is fair, and pairing that with a sale is a good way to soften the blow. There’s literally no further thought to it than that. We don’t sit around and figure out when the most lucrative time is for renewals to hit, we have better things to do with our time.

While the pre-rise sales are always popular, it also doesn’t necessarily translate into higher renewals on the subsequent anniversaries. People don’t have to renew when their license expires and my understanding is, which seems to buck the trend of many of our competitors, we’re still comfortable with people delaying their renewals as long as they want.

The onus is on us to give them something to renew their license for. Sometimes that’s maintenance releases, sometimes indeed that might be the moment it expires, but often it is going to be major upgrades and that’s fine and great.

There’s no deeper thinking than that.
You're being too generous by imaging that the people who come up with these stupid conspiracy theories actually think.
 
You're being too generous by imaging that the people who come up with these stupid conspiracy theories actually think.

I don't believe this would fall into "conspiracy theory" it is basic software renewal economics. Keeping customers retained by scheduling updates at regular intervals, keeping lapses in software licensing to a minimum, is standard practice for many software companies. It creates a stronger bottom line for the company which is mutually beneficial to the customer in many ways.

It is only common sense to expect that a higher percentage of XenForo admin's renew their license immediately after a major or minor release than at any other times, with one exception, and that is when offered a discount. This again is basic software renewal economics. With the general decline in the growth rate of new forums over the last few years, renewals will make up an increasing percentage of the revenue base for forum based software companies. Software renewal economics will play an ever-increasing role in the bottom line for these companies.

Just because XenForo does not currently base software releases off of software renewal economics strategies does not mean many companies don't.
 
Keeping customers retained by scheduling updates at regular intervals, keeping lapses in software licensing to a minimum, is standard practice for many software companies.
I think it is a bit more complex than that. In the olden days until like 15 years ago one would buy a software license for a major version that typically would include minor updates for this version. When a new major version popped up one would have to buy an update to that version and the process starts again from the beginning. So no need for frequent updates but rather for big bang ones from time to time as these were the things that created income (and to deliver that they had to have relevant features).

Some software vendors would allow to leave out one major version and still being able to upgrade to a new major version, some did not. Those who would allow to leave out major versions would typically charge a bit more for such a version-jump-upgrade.
Optionally one could buy support, typically used in more professional or enterprise environments, which would typically cost between 15 and 50% percent of the license fee per year, depending from the support level (standard to platinum) and wether major updates were included.

Time based licenses (that would allow you to use the software you bought only for a year or so) were pretty uncommon back then. This model worked well for many years but started to change about 15 years ago - in two different directions at the same time:

• on the one hand, Apple introduced the app store which had two effects: software became dramatically cheaper as people were not willing to pay relevant money for it, there were loads of fee apps available that got their revenue via in-app advertizing and via the central app store people were using (or at least downloading) way more apps than they did before. As Apple did neither implement the possibility for free demo versions nor the possibility for paid version upgrades effectively in the early years you bought an app once and had all updates free forever. Users loved it, but surprisingly, this turned out not to be a sustainable business model for software developers. And so in recent years more and more followed the alternative route:

• on the other hand with the upcoming of easy to implement automated build and deployment systems and easier implementation of automated testing it became way easier and cheaper to release new software versions than before. And with distribution moving from physical media like CDs or DVDs almost completely to internet download thanks to fast and cheap internet connections plus easier options for online payment and online distribution frequent releases of software became way easier. And so updates became smaller and more frequent. This was good, as new features were delivered faster now plus smaller updates created less risk in comparison to bigger ones as less new code an less code changes were invented.
But at the same time with this approach it became harder to create new major versions (still needing a big bang featureset to justify the version change) and artificially holding back features while there was no technical need to do so felt awkward (and rised the risk of bugs additionally).

As a consequence software as a service (SAS) became the new hot **** for software vendors: You no longer buy the software but rent it for a period of time for a monthly or yearly fee. Often enough, it doesn't even run on your own hardware but in the cloud and you don't have to care for update or maintainance. Bugfixes, new features and enhancements are silently delivered in a constant stream. Plus the entry barrier is lower as you only have to pay a small sum per month instead of a huge sum upfront. Adobe was one of the first companies to invent this modell for their Creative Suite and many many others followed.

This model works brilliantly for software companies as they now have a steady and calculatable monthly income that is not coupled to having to release a major version (and only then earning money) while in between having to deliver updates and maintenance for free. Plus they do have a honogenous base of installations instead of having to support and to fix various versions on parallel as it was before. This way in theory the quality of software (from a craftsmanship perspective) was expected to go up as there was now less pressure to deliver shiny new features en bloc under time pressure but rather deliver continuously smaller features in smaller batches whenever they are ready and strictly focus on only one version only. Software companies and enterprise customers jumped on that train fast, and - having no choice - consumers did as well over time.

Fast forward to today: Over time customers have increasingly started to realize that with this new model they typically quickly pay way more money per year than with the old model for basically the same value while software vendors have realized that they are in a very comfortable situation, owning a money printing machine (especially with cloud based software) and getting a sustainable monthly revenue w/o a real obligation to deliver anything. Which often enough is the case: SAS is an expensive money drain for many.

Coming back to XenForo: XenForo is still pretty much on the old model (which I like and which was one of the reasons going for XenForo) while, with XenForo Cloud also serving the new market. Personally, when starting with XenForo two years ago, I was alien with the idea only to buy an extention when a major or relevant update pops up and still am alien to that approach. I planned to pay for the extention constantly to have constant support and updates (and stacked up a couple of years last year when there was the sale before the price rise), also because this was what I was used to from many professional environments over the years.

However: It turned out that, until now, community support via the forum was sufficient - no need for an official support ticket until now. It has often been criticized that time between XF releases would be to long - which may have been true over the last couple of years. Currently I feel it is rather fast in the area of planning at least, rushing through a couple of 2.3.x releases quickly, aiming vor 3.0 and more or less spontanouosly planning a 2.4 in between. Until now I find it more irritating than useful as each update creates effort and risk, so the need for a bunch of bugfix releases is a bit of an annoyance. More of a moving target than anything else. Which is then eased up as for the moment I am stuck on 2.2. anyway due to add ons and - as the new releases did and do not deliver much in terms of features that I would be desperately eager for - I am mainly forced (and more and more eager) to upgrade as add many on developers only add features to their 2.3. versions while at the same time I cannot upgrade due to other add ons not being ready for 2.3 yet.

So today I do have a way different perspective on XF than I had when I started over with XF two years ago:

• back then I though XF would be the main playground and I may or may not need support for it. Being a commercial product It will be developed further in terms of features continuously and decently fast, I may however in rare circumstances have the need of a third party add on (but this will - given the pretty basic needs that I have - be the exception).
• today it turned out (until now at least) that XF itself is rather a kind of rough foundation - it is way more limited that I assumed, it hit borders really quickly and the "need" for using add ons is immense as soon as one wants more than the basis of the basis. On a positive note XF itself does run w/o any issues, stable as an old Mercedes Diesel taxi and with the help of add ons you can achieve many things easily. But the price for that is complexity: The need for a lot of addons makes maintainance and upgrades of software way more complex due to many (uncoordinated) players (each following their own rules, policies, strategies, characters, price-models and timelines) and dependencies between them and it makes it way more expensive than I initially thought (as the cost for add ons stack up to more than the XF license quickly) and calculated. I vastly underestimated what XF themselves state: That they are a platform that things can be build on top of (not explicitely telling the part "and you will probably need to do so quickly" ;)). So in the end in comparison it is rather the add ons that bring me to or stop me from upgrading the XF version, not so much XF itself (as I - while clearly honoring the efforts going into new XF versions - do until now barely see features or changes that would make an upgrade of the main stack mandatory or even worth for my needs). But - and this is exceptionally good - this is only the case because XF does not hop from one security hole to the next but seems to be on a rather good quality level as far as I can judge and therefor there seems to be no need for fast updates (or updates at all) from a security perspective.
Ironically this situation is self enforcing: Add Ons are developed because XF lacks a certain feature or functionality. XF relies on add ons being developed and therefor does not include too much new functionalities and features in the software itself (makes life easier for XF plus it would be annoying to make a well perceived add on worthless and cut the income of the developer who sells it). So the situation stays as it is and becomes even more complex over time. But this lack of features makes XF updates less attractive and that makes license extensions less attractive while at the same time even with a license extension an update of XF may be cumbersome or even impossible due to add ons. The fewer license extensions are sold the less money does XF make and the less financial capacity is there to develop features. Which, as a consequence leads to slow update cycles with only little features which then again stops people frombuying license extensions. A self-enforcing process to a degree.

So it is not only the frequency of updates but also the content of updates (in terms of features that are relevant to me), their quality (in terms of bugs) and the dependencies in regards of add ons that come into play and that may influence the willingness to upgrade and to buy yearly extensions constantly. I am eased up for the forseeable future as I have stacked up extensions but can in the meantime understand people that rather do a little cherrypicking in terms of extending their XF license.
 
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I think it is a bit more complex than that...
Agreed, but the remark was mostly in response to a now standard practice for software companies being referred to as a "conspiracy theory". As you thoroughly stated the software renewal economics has changed over the last 15+ years significantly. The failure rate for software companies is quite high and for those with a lack of a recurring revenue model it will be even harder to compete and survive.

Coming back to XenForo: XenForo is still pretty much on the old model
This is true. One of the reasons I came here initially and it seems like you did also was for the "attractive" pricing, policies and product. I believe over a short time we both agreed the current pricing and policies may not be the best for XenForo's future product. Core functions need to be expanded. The customer base would benefit greatly without relying on third party add-ons for important functions to their site (being well aware that "important" functions can very greatly by site, but there is consensus on many missing important functions). This all takes money.

Very quickly the cost of third party add-ons and their renewals can greatly outweigh the cost of the XenForo base software and its' add-ons. I think there will always be a need for third-party add-ons. There are some great developers of third party add-ons here, with exceptional support for their products. At the same time there are many developers who just don't have the time to maintain their products, free or paid, which leads to issues. The ability to upgrade XenForo when there are new releases and not be blocked by numerous add-ons is something nearly every admin has come across after not being here very long.

The fewer license extensions are sold the less money does XF make and the less financial capacity is there to develop features. Which, as a consequence leads to slow update cycles with only little features which then again stops people frombuying license extensions. A self-enforcing process to a degree.

The current cycle is definitely self-enforcing. I know XenForo had intentions of a faster update cycle starting with the release of 2.3 but unfortunately that hasn't come to fruition yet.

XenForo has a decent size customer base, very attractive pricing and policies, and a great product. Why rock the boat?.

At the same time those looking for significant additions and changes to come to XenForo on a regular basis will likely be disappointed. This will cost money. There is only so much the current staff size can do. I have no doubt they are all working to their limits. The current development staff are working on more versions than I think they have developers. 2.3.x bug fixes, 2.4 minor upgrade, 3.0 major upgrade, and no doubt they have plans slated for additional future releases beyond 3.0.

I don't think XenForo has raised their prices enough over the last few years to even cover inflation rates, let alone some additional developers to help keep a regular update cycle with expanded offerings.

With all that said, XenForo as it exists today and with its' current update cycle is still a bargain in my opinion.
 
I believe over a short time we both agreed the current pricing and policies may not be the best for XenForo's future product.
I would have to disagree. New license sales are still fine. Renewal sales are still fine. There’s no reason to change that other than the occasional necessity to increase prices.

What gives us that confidence is the strength of XenForo Cloud. This will never, in our current mindset and position, need to replace the self hosted model, but it has brought us a significant increase in income to sustain us beyond that model. XenForo Cloud typically accounts for around half of our income already.

So genuinely, we’re fine, and speculation to the contrary while appreciated, is just not accurate.

The current development staff are working on more versions than I think they have developers. 2.3.x bug fixes, 2.4 minor upgrade, 3.0 major upgrade, and no doubt they have plans slated for additional future releases beyond 3.0.
We have three primary developers on 2.3 and 2.4 and one primary developer on 3.0. So the math ain’t mathing there 🙂 We’re good. I promise.
 
I would say there is nearly a 0% chance of 2.4 coming out before the end of the year. XenForo offered a once in a blue moon discount for renewals last December so a large portion of there customer base's subscriptions now go up just before the end of the year. It would be a large financial loss to them (at least short term) if they put out a minor release before 12/31/2024.

I don't believe this would fall into "conspiracy theory" it is basic software renewal economics. Keeping customers retained by scheduling updates at regular intervals, keeping lapses in software licensing to a minimum, is standard practice for many software companies. It creates a stronger bottom line for the company which is mutually beneficial to the customer in many ways.

It is only common sense to expect that a higher percentage of XenForo admin's renew their license immediately after a major or minor release than at any other times, with one exception, and that is when offered a discount. This again is basic software renewal economics. With the general decline in the growth rate of new forums over the last few years, renewals will make up an increasing percentage of the revenue base for forum based software companies. Software renewal economics will play an ever-increasing role in the bottom line for these companies.

Just because XenForo does not currently base software releases off of software renewal economics strategies does not mean many companies don't.

You were not talking about other companies, you were specifically talking about XenForo, and have implied they are doing something that is generally considered anti-consumer in the software industry. You even admit that XenForo is not currently doing what you implied, so what was the point of your first post?

Pushing unfounded conjecture or saying things without factual basis is conspiracy.

There are plenty of other things you can criticize XF for, so there really is no reason to try to make **** up.
 
@bzcomputers : Couldn't agree more with almost everything you wrote! (y)
XenForo has a decent size customer base
Any idea what size it may be? I have been wondering for quite some time about the mismatch of the (high) number of users registered in this forum versus the (relatively low) number of downloads that are displayed with even the most common and most pupular add ons. When you look on the statistic page of Add On Update Notifier (which it self has only an astonishing low 454 downloads listed on the ressource page and a self stated 427 active installations) it creates a ranking of the most popular add ons within it's user base - which by the way are almost all free add ons. Some of the most popular ones are

S9e Media Sites (2187 downloads)
Red Iris Cache by Xon (1036 downloads - but possibly some additional via his own site)
Moderator Panel (919 downloads)
Search Improvements (847 downloads - but possibly some additional via his own site)
Known Bots (725 downloads)
Digital Point App for Cloudflare (658 downloads)
Font Awesome Manager (680 downloads - no longer needed and working in 2.3)
Conversation Improvements by Xon (635 downloads - but possibly some additional via his own site)

If I understand this correctly these download numbers are for the latest version only - so there will be a bigger userbase as many probably don't keep their add ons on the latest version. Plus there are probably a lot of forums that don't use add ons at all. Still overall these numbers seem not very high to me - and furthermore give a perspective on that:

At the same time there are many developers who just don't have the time to maintain their products, free or paid, which leads to issues.
Based on the typical ratio between people using a free service or product and people willing to pay for the wider part of the paid add ons there are probably pretty low sales numbers and even lower extension fee numbers. Probably pretty hard to make a living from developing and selling add ons for XF, at least if you live in the western world. Which then leads to the fact that add ons for most developers are more of a side income - which has consequences for the time they are able to invest in them. Plus - as many of those developers are a one man band - quality, reliability and future proofness are issues as well. Especially for bigger and more complex add ons that only serve a smaller segment of customers this seems pretty troublesome.

There’s no reason to change that other than the occasional necessity to increase prices.
Very thankful for that!

What gives us that confidence is the strength of XenForo Cloud. This will never, in our current mindset and position, need to replace the self hosted model, but it has brought us a significant increase in income to sustain us beyond that model. XenForo Cloud typically accounts for around half of our income already.

I hope you stick with your positve attitude towards self hosted. If there would have been only the cloud option available I would have gone for a different software due to pricing (mainly, but not only). So I can be thankful that cloud customers co-fund my self hosting. :)

Still I think it would be beneficial to extend the functionality of the core and integrate some (well, a lot of) things into it that currently are add ons. Many of them small and tiny, but making upgrade and version changes cumbersome due to their amount. It would ease up the life of many. A somewhat bigger team would hopefully also be beneficial for things like the Media Gallery - the biggest disappointment I had with XenForo so far. Not a cheap add on, a pretty huge one, pretty essential - but in my eyes lightyears behind what would I call state of the art in terms of ux and features for many years already. So far behind that barely any of my users uses it, I regret buying it (and having had the trust upfront that it will be good) and it is embarrassing that there is no better solution available that I could offer my users.
 
The current cycle is definitely self-enforcing. I know XenForo had intentions of a faster update cycle starting with the release of 2.3 but unfortunately that hasn't come to fruition yet.
They might have good intentions. Yet major releases take years. When the first betas of a new release show up you see a new style and some backend enhancements and nothing else. There hasn't been anything new except for the style in v2 and all its iterations. Then again they don't profess to be anything more then a forum software company.

If not for loyal customers this ship would have sunk years ago.
 
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