XenForo 2.0 Discussion

[Brent W]

Sure there is and was.

What then? Other than changing it from a forum into something completely different and bloating the software for everyone else?

Forums are an information disaster. Phrases another way, they aren't useful.

I wouldn't call it a disaster but there is a lot of room for improvement when it comes to getting relevant content to each member.

 

[Digital Doctor]

What then?

You could start with threads that are threaded.

Other than changing it from a forum into something completely different and bloating the software for everyone else?

You want bloat ?
This thread is 140 pages of useless bloat, by design !!! That's bloat !

I wouldn't call it a disaster but there is a lot of room for improvement when it comes to getting relevant content to each member.

Total disaster.
From the lack of structured content to unusable search to 1997 photopost-like galleries to a forum home list that is just LOL. I really could go on.

This thread itself is a great example of what is wrong with forum software. A newcomer comes to this thread and it is an information disaster / useless.

 

[Brent W]

You could start with threads that are threaded.


You want bloat ?
This thread is 140 pages of useless bloat, by design !!! That's bloat !




Total disaster.
From the lack of structured content to unusable search to 1997 photopost-like galleries to a forum home list that is just LOL. I really could go on.

This thread itself is a great example of what is wrong with forum software. A newcomer comes to this thread and it is an information disaster / useless.

Disagree. I hate and always have hated threaded conversations. It promotes low quality posts with little content of value in my opinion.

Your views on the photo gallery are legitimate though. I think there could be much better ways to present it or integrate it into XenForo better.

As far as search, Elasticsearch works great for us with over 60 million posts.

 

[rwm1962]

Forums are an information disaster. Phrases another way, they aren't useful.

From the lack of structured content to unusable search to 1997 photopost-like galleries to a forum home list that is just LOL. I really could go on.

Not the feedback I get back from users

 

[Brent W]

Not the feedback I get back from users

Which is all that matters

 

[TPerry]

@Chris D the plan is for third party developers to have a solid base to work from, that's great, but what about core features? Third party add-ons can be excellent, but they soon build up a cost that, over time, can outstrip several times over the cost of the first party software very quickly.

I'm sure after the base has be solidified, then you will start seeing improvements in the core code (enhancements actually). Not in reality any different than what IPS did with their 4.x line. They released 4.0 before it was ready for prime time and then once they somewhat got it stable started adding some newer features into it - but that hasn't really happened until the most recent 4.2 line that they are working on.
As for a "suite" product - I imagine that somewhere down the line that the first party add-ons will be expanded, either by new code or obtaining existing 3rd party code and incorporating it into the XenForo line (which could be the smarter idea).

Forums, in general, are dying in as much as anyone attempting to launch a new forum is batting against the wind, 10 years ago a new forum would attract attention, now they mostly attract dust.

It's a user mindset. To get to the "facebook" style interface, you will lose the benefits that a forum have (which they do) over that type of social platform. All things are cyclical.

 

[imno007]

The world isn't that different from 10-13 years ago. Twitter is still Twitter, Facebook still looks like Facebook and forums still are growing at a great rate.

What has changed is that some niches found better ways to solve problems, such as the Technology niche. Stackoverflow isn't a forum but it killed a lot of tech forums out there. There isn't anything that XenForo or any other forum software could do to prevent that from happening.

I think this is really the answer to why forums are "dying" - or to maybe put it more accurately, why fewer are succeeding as much as they'd like to. It doesn't have as much to do with outdated technology or not enough innovative technology as it does with a relative handful of big players having a monopoly on most kinds of content. I don't see it being so different to what happens in the brick-and-mortar world: we still see small-time general stores and local hardware stores making a go of it, but not nearly as many as there used to be before giant chains like Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot, & 7-Eleven came on the scene, and their days are probably numbered. I used to frequent a lot of local bookstores, but now because of Amazon and online book sales I have to drive thirty miles to get to a bookstore. One could come up with dozens of such examples. I see pretty much the same thing currently happening on the internet. There just isn't as much room for competition. It's hard to compete when most anything you can do is already being done better by companies with millions and sometimes billions of dollars at their disposal. Doesn't mean you can't still carve out some success for yourself, but having Xenforo transform into some kind of hybrid Facebook platform probably isn't going to magically do it for you.

 

[mauzao9]

It doesn't have as much to do with outdated technology or not enough innovative technology as it does with a relative handful of big players having a monopoly on most kinds of content.

I don't agree, there has been one great increase in other places for discussions that did drain the audience and the relevance of the forums. I think even Twitter had that impact, while it is not any forum it does have a threaded discussion by topics and today it became a place where when something happens in the world, twitter is the place to go to get info and a quick and simple layer of discussion.

Xenforo for me needs more social features, not as turning it into any Facebook, but improving and iterating on the social features it already has, from the profile feeds to the neglected Following system.

 

[Brent W]

from the profile feeds to the neglected Following system.

I agree but those are improvements and not game changing. The XF ecosystem needs a lot of improvement. Finding content and following people you want to is hurting badly.

 

[mauzao9]

I agree but those are improvements and not game changing. The XF ecosystem needs a lot of improvement. Finding content and following people you want to is hurting badly.

There's also another layer here that shows me how the software needs to catch up to how people "expect to use it".

I swear the more time that passes, the more frequently I get asked by people how to create a thread on the forum, quite a bunch of people that aren't used to forums so I get this idea of what are the frequent struggles for new people to find a forum welcoming and friendly to get used to.

Then after quite the feedback, this small-big feature to create a thread from the homepage appears on xF 2.0.

 

[imno007]

I don't agree, there has been one great increase in other places for discussions that did drain the audience and the relevance of the forums. I think even Twitter had that impact, while it is not any forum it does have a threaded discussion by topics and today it became a place where when something happens in the world, twitter is the place to go to get info and a quick and simple layer of discussion.

Xenforo for me needs more social features, not as turning it into any Facebook, but improving and iterating on the social features it already has, from the profile feeds to the neglected Following system.

Sorry, but I'm not exactly sure what you're referencing with that first sentence. Facebook? Anyway, Facebook and Twitter both were unique innovations, built from the ground up, so to say. If you're looking for that kind of success, then that's probably what you'll have to do: come up with an innovative idea and then find the people and the funding to build it. It's not likely to come from buying a $140 forum or cms platform, no matter how great its features. Not that I don't think there's room for Xenforo to improve, mind you, I just think there's some people here who want it to be something other than what's it's always claimed to be and sold itself as, which is a forum software.

 

[imno007]

Not the feedback I get back from users

Yeah, it depends a lot on your audience, I guess, their age and what they're used to. Frankly, "lack of structured content" is the kind of thing I think of when I visit Twitter. Maybe it's just me, but most of the time the easiest way for me to find anything I'm looking for on Twitter is to Google it.

 

[oO5 Dynasty]

Sorry, but I'm not exactly sure what you're referencing with that first sentence. Facebook? Anyway, Facebook and Twitter both were unique innovations, built from the ground up, so to say. If you're looking for that kind of success, then that's probably what you'll have to do: come up with an innovative idea and then find the people and the funding to build it. It's not likely to come from buying a $140 forum or cms platform, no matter how great its features. Not that I don't think there's room for Xenforo to improve, mind you, I just think there's some people here who want it to be something other than what's it's always claimed to be and sold itself as, which is a forum software.

I on the other hand i think it is very possible with $140.00 forum.

 

[oO5 Dynasty]

I don't agree, there has been one great increase in other places for discussions that did drain the audience and the relevance of the forums. I think even Twitter had that impact, while it is not any forum it does have a threaded discussion by topics and today it became a place where when something happens in the world, twitter is the place to go to get info and a quick and simple layer of discussion.

Xenforo for me needs more social features, not as turning it into any Facebook, but improving and iterating on the social features it already has, from the profile feeds to the neglected Following system.

The following system needs to be fixed. I do agree

 

[Davyc]

@Chris D thanks for the reply, I did read it again and the statement implies that it is aimed at (third party) developers; of course you are developers, but can you give a hint towards some kind of roadmap of what you anticipate to come that is an improvement on XF1 in terms of the end user feature set?

To all others who are standing on opposite sides of the fence - Social Media is 'huge' face it, they are the main competitors everyone is up against when they start afresh now. Longterm, established and big boards may not want to contaminate their forums with SM if that is their fear of what is being asked, however those starting out will be looking to attract the masses who use SM and so if follows that they will want a feature set that will appeal to those masses. We live in a fast disposable world where people want in and out quickly, forums as they stand are not geared up for that type of input, but there is always the hope that 'some' (and I stress that point) will go further and contribute something more substantial; hence the need for a hybrid approach.

As for bloating the software to accommodate the needs of the many, as long as features can be turned off and they do not impact on the performance of the site, then what harm is there in providing those features? Those that need them can use them, those that don't can ignore them and get on with what they enjoy. If it's possible (and I can't say that it is) perhaps the items you want in a feature set can be chosen at the installation stage (and added later if required) so as to keep only what you need.

It's incredibly difficult for new admins to get any kind of input from people and expecting them to shell out $$$$ to create a really good feature rich site and wait 4/5 years to see anything of worth coming back to them, well it just won't happen in today's world. Admins need the tools to shape their sites in a way that they feel will attract people and give them some positive feedback to fuel their imaginations in a way that will encourage them to move forward; and if their users ask for a feature it would be nice to just be able to flick a switch and it's there for them, right out of the core. Finding out what people want in the core should not be a difficult task and the developers should not be afraid to ask. It needs more than 'likes' in the suggestion forum to determine this. Stagnation is debilitating and a motivation killer; it's the last thing we need.

 

[Joe Blow]

I've said this before but it's something I feel very strongly about so I'll say it again.

My users want to be able to customise what content they see and how they see it. They want to be able to ignore threads, ignore forums, ignore users, and decide how forum content is presented to them. Some like the most recent post in a thread to be the first post, others (most) want it last. They don't want to have me decide how they use the forum, they want that power. There is so much functionality and so many options missing in XF1's core - things that I consider basic stuff - that I am forced to use a dozen or so add-ons to try and achieve the kind of functionality my users want. All of the add-ons are developed independently so none of them work with each other without expensive custom coding, so it has never quite gotten to where my users would like it to be.

Developers aren't king, admins aren't king, forum users are king. Please create XF2 around allowing the users to decide for themselves how they want to interact with the community and give them the tools to do it. They are crying out for it.

The reason forums are on the decline is because they aren't giving users what they want. People want choice, they want options, they want to get value out of the community and they want to do it their way. That starts with the software. Make it fast, flexible, and load it with user options that let people feel at home, not like they have been invited to someone else's house and told to do things their way.

Choice, choice, choice and more choice.

 

[oO5 Dynasty]

I've said this before but it's something I feel very strongly about so I'll say it again.

My users want to be able to customise what content they see and how they see it. They want to be able to ignore threads, ignore forums, ignore users, and decide how forum content is presented to them. Some like the most recent post in a thread to be the first post, others (most) want it last. They don't want to have me decide how they use the forum, they want that power. There is so much functionality and so many options missing in XF1's core - things that I consider basic stuff - that I am forced to use a dozen or so add-ons to try and achieve the kind of functionality my users want. All of the add-ons are developed independently so none of them work with each other without expensive custom coding, so it has never quite gotten to where my users would like it to be.

Developers aren't king, admins aren't king, forum users are king. Please create XF2 around allowing the users to decide for themselves how they want to interact with the community and give them the tools to do it. They are crying out for it.

The reason forums are on the decline is because they aren't giving users what they want. People want choice, they want options, they want to get value out of the community and they want to do it their way. That starts with the software. Make it fast, flexible, and load it with user options that let people feel at home, not like they have been invited to someone else's house and told to do things their way.

Choice, choice, choice and more choice.

Now see i totally agree with this. I had to pay a dev to create an add-on that allows the users to change the font color and link color etc for their profile pages. Stuff that the internet use to let you do back in the day with sites like myspace, youtube etc. I want my users to have the freedom to use the software to showcase and promote their content in the way they want it to be done.
as you can see on my profile page i am able to change the color of the modbar links text and borders. All of my users can do this to make their profile pages match their content. But again it wasnt in the core of the software, i needed to use a dev.

 

[Chris D]

@Chris D thanks for the reply, I did read it again and the statement implies that it is aimed at (third party) developers; of course you are developers, but can you give a hint towards some kind of roadmap of what you anticipate to come that is an improvement on XF1 in terms of the end user feature set?

It does not imply that and it is very much aimed at general development. Any improvements in development benefit us and what we develop in the future just as much as anyone else.

For now, we're just concentrating on the very important task in hand - getting it done. Then we can talk about moving onward and upward.

 

[Davyc]

@Chris D again thanks for the reply, but your replies are non-committal and are aimed purely at undefined development but nothing said about what we can anticipate in regards to improvements in features, or indeed features that many deem should be included in the core and not having to pay for third party add-ons. A short roadmap of what is to come would be encouraging - as it is there is nothing to whet the appetite and inspire. I understand that the aim is to get the core sorted and lay a great foundation, but what is in mind for to be built upon that foundation is unknown. This is a crucial time because people will be looking at your competitors (namely IPS) who are moving at a pace an including interesting and inspiring new features. Anyone looking to start up will be viewing this and their decisions will be based on what's out there and what's to come. If XF developers cannot share a vision of the future and what's to come that will be inspiring then I can see people moving on.

As it is the 'developers' preview of XF2 may be great for those coding, but for the rest it is meaningless and uninspiring. End users need some inspiritation too.

 

[Chris D]

I think it's better that we focus on the job in hand.

XF2 lays the groundwork for a strong future for the product but the first and most important step is actually getting it finished. Most people respect that and appreciate the importance of it.