Windows 10

Chrome is funky in Windows 10 lol

chrome.webp
 
They are. They're currently following the Apple OSX "upgrade" model (free).

If you're currently a Windows 8 user, you're given access to download of 8.1. So, if you've been there from the beginning of W8, you were able to upgrade to 8.1. Therefore, if Microsoft says you can upgrade to Windows 9 from W8 and above, then you're going to get it for free.
Sorry if I'm bringing up a bit of an old topic, but the OS X "upgrade" model actually follows the Windows 8.1 upgrade model (free). Mountain Lion wasn't a free upgrade if I remember correctly, and I've been told that Mavericks was only free because Windows 8.1 was.
 
Sorry if I'm bringing up a bit of an old topic, but the OS X "upgrade" model actually follows the Windows 8.1 upgrade model (free). Mountain Lion wasn't a free upgrade if I remember correctly, and I've been told that Mavericks was only free because Windows 8.1 was.

Windows 8.1 was a "my bad, we screwed up, you hate Windows 8 and so here is a service pack called 8.1".

Not really the same thing.
 
Sorry if I'm bringing up a bit of an old topic, but the OS X "upgrade" model actually follows the Windows 8.1 upgrade model (free). Mountain Lion wasn't a free upgrade if I remember correctly, and I've been told that Mavericks was only free because Windows 8.1 was.
I'll repeat what I said earlier:

Every OS X update since Snow Leopard has been free. Every Mac comes with a copy of the latest version of OS X. Every one of those purchases gives you free updates.You have not needed to pay for OS X since 2009.

This isn't new for Apple. Apple dont follow/copy Microsoft's OS release structure. If they did we'd see crap like:

- OS X Home Edition
- OS X Pro Edition
- OS X iLife Edition
etc

Apple just does OS X - no extra versions, no extra pricing. If your mac is older than 2009 and is not already running Snow Leopard, your next OS update is a paid one. So you'd have to be running an old Mac running Leopard or older to have to pay for it. Even then you'd be paying for Snow Leopard, and all subsequent versions would then unlock as free on the appstore.

Source: I'm an OS X user, and developer who's only ever paid for OS X prior to 2009.

With regards to Windows. You can't really compare Windows release versioning/scheduling to OS X at all and vice versa. They both follow very different patterns.

Apple stick to a real version schema. We've had OS 10 (aka OS X) which is the 'Major' version. Then each OS update that has been release builds on top of that, so becomes a 'Minor' version number. So OS X Yosemite is actually OS 10.10.

It's the same pattern many software packages (XenForo included) follow:

MAJOR.MINOR.MAINTENANCE

So the first patch for Yosemite will be 10.10.1 for example.

Microsoft on the other hand follows a different approach. Windows XP, Vista, 7, 8, 10 - they are not actually the version numbers. They are the product names.

In reality Windows is actually Windows NT. Info Here.

Interestingly once Windows NT reached v6, Microsoft have taken to simply working on that existing version since Vista. Even Windows 10 still runs on NT v6, which is actually a really, REALY good thing.
  • Windows Vista = Windows NT 6.0
  • Windows 7 = Windows NT 6.1 (Notice it's only a minor upgrade? That's because Windows 7 is essentially Vista with a 'minor' update applied to it)
  • Windows 8 = Windows NT 6.2
  • Windows 8.1 = Windows NT 6.3
  • Windows 10 = Windows NT 6.4
What this tells us is that in the background they have actually possibly (although probably unlikely) taken Apple's idea of keeping with one major codebase (in Apples case OS 10, in Microsoft's case Windows NT 6) and refining it over a long period of time, brining improvements over time.

This method worked amazingly well for Apple, with the OS now bring extremely stable and fast. Seriously I can't tell you the last time my mac showed me a 'spinning beachball' let alone a crash.

Hopefully over time this method will also pay off for Microsoft. The NT OS is in major need of some serious refinement, something they must do if they seriously want to try this idiotic idea of 1 OS across all devices.

Windows 7 was a good example of refining the OS. They took Vista, fixed it's issues, and released it. Sure, it's a bit of a con to essentially release what would have once been on the table as 'Vista SP2/SP3' but the end result was a decent OS. Still not anywhere near stable enough, but getting there.

Sadly they then back peddled and released Windows 8. Whilst 8.1 fixes some issues, the OS as a whole was a terrible idea from a user experience point of view (IMO).

With regards to free/paid:

Will Windows 10 be free? No.

Microsoft is a software company. Sure, they may provide it as a free upgrade from 8/8.10 but if you're coming from XP or 7, expect to pay.

Windows and Office are the two primary money makers for Windows. Making one of those free would kill their income stream. Given the lackluster performance of the Surface, it's unlikely that Microsoft will ever move to a free OS release system.

One other option they may go down, is another annoying 'Home Edition' type release which wold be free, but severely limited, making people want to buy the 'Pro' upgrade.

The thing is. They can afford to give it away to Windows 8 and 8.1 users as there's next to nobody using it. If you read the studies, there are more machines running OS X Mavericks than there are running Windows 8 / 8.1, and anyone with half a brain can tell that given how much more widespread Windows usage is, that means that 8/8.1 are a MASSIVE failure financially for Microsoft.

Windows 10 will need to bring in a hell of a lot of cash for Microsoft. As it currently stands they've lost billions on every Surface model, as well as on Windows 8.
 
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Source: I'm an OS X user, and developer who's only ever paid for OS X prior to 2009.
Was Apple double dipping before that date?
Their machines were much overpriced because...that price included the OS as well, not for lifetime?
When you bought an IBM compatible machine it was up to the vendor to include or not an OS.
Even today you can buy such a machine without an OS. OS price is not included.
You can buy Windows or use Linux for it.
Can you buy an Apple without OS?
 
Was Apple double dipping before that date?
Their machines were much overpriced because...that price included the OS as well, not for lifetime?
When you bought an IBM compatible machine it was up to the vendor to include or not an OS.
Even today you can buy such a machine without an OS. You can buy Windows or use Linux.
OS price is not included.
When you bought a Mac prior to that you got the 'current' version of OS X for free, but future versions were paid.

I came in to the OS X world in 2007 with OS X 10.4 (Tiger) being included on my iMac. Following that Leopard came out, which was a £89 upgrade if I recall.

Then Snow Leopard was £29.

Right before Lion came out they released a free update to Snow Leopard to add the AppStore. Lion was provided as a free upgrade for everyone who'd got that update. Following on from that they've all been free.

With regards to price, the specs have gotten way better, but the prices remained much the same. They've done silent $100 drops a few times as well. When you work out the cost of a Mac these days, they're actually not as expensive as people believe The price difference is a couple of hundred dollars at best, so once you take the free OS, free office suite and such into account, the prices level out quite nicely :)

Prior to 2009 they were likely making a fair bit more profit on the Mac line, that's for sure. But the iPhone's profits made Mac profits look tiny, so they kind of just decided to make OS X free, as a "bonus" I guess. Heck they could sell Mac's at cost and it's still not going to affect their profit margins at this point.

Can you buy an Apple without OS?
Nope, all Mac's include it for free. You could wipe it and stick Linux/Windows on there if you really wanted to though.
 
Not really.
Is it good?
Yes? Leave it there.
No? Buy an IBM compatible machine.

I doubt anyone would do it, I was just saying, it's possible ;) Lots of people do dual boot though. You can have OS X, Windows and Linux all running at once on a Mac if you really wanted to. Good for developers :)
 
With regards to price, the specs have gotten way better, but the prices remained much the same. They've done silent $100 drops a few times as well. When you work out the cost of a Mac these days, they're actually not as expensive as people believe The price difference is a couple of hundred dollars at best, so once you take the free OS, free office suite and such into account, the prices level out quite nicely :)
That would be incorrect 100%. They are nowhere near close...
fgfgghcfvhg.webp

This is what I would have to spend at @ mac to almost get the specs of the computer I have now, and this of course doesn't include my hand shaker, hdmi capture card, external raid towers etc ...which I also got when or right before I built my computer which I do include in the price of my custom current build.

All the extras included with my current computer still makes it less expensive then a mac and then I can install anything I want on it. Buying desktop hardware from mac is stupid imo (unless you have an uncapped spending amount), I mean yeah sure their laptops are nice (I will give them this, their laptops are some of the nicest I have seen), and the new pro cylinder looking thing is cool and all but I can build double the computer for half of the cost and still use Mac OS if I for some reason decided that I would try it again.



Anyways, back to the topic at hand, I am going to try win10 tonight just before I go to bed, I will let y'all know if I had sweet dreams or nightmares.
 
That would be incorrect 100%. They are nowhere near close...
View attachment 85671
This is what I would have to spend at @ mac to almost get the specs of the computer I have now, and this of course doesn't include my hand shaker, hdmi capture card, external raid towers etc ...which I also got when or right before I built my computer which I do include in the price of my custom current build.

All the extras included with my current computer still makes it less expensive then a mac and then I can install anything I want on it. Buying desktop hardware from mac is stupid imo (unless you have an uncapped spending amount), I mean yeah sure their laptops are nice (I will give them this, their laptops are some of the nicest I have seen), and the new pro cylinder looking thing is cool and all but I can build double the computer for half of the cost and still use Mac OS if I for some reason decided that I would try it again.



Anyways, back to the topic at hand, I am going to try win10 tonight just before I go to bed, I will let y'all know if I had sweet dreams or nightmares.

Whilst a good point. My concern isn't pricing, I'll gladly pay for quality usable product (not garbage like windows 8 - charm bar edition). So if Windows 10 does prove to be a quality product that doesn't just cater for mobile users whilst forgetting desktop users then any price Microsoft attach is good for me. They did good with Windows 7 (i purchased that) and very happy with it so if they deliver on win10 pricing is not an issue at all for me.

However, a shoddy product is a show stopper which is my main and only concern. I'm holding off on purchasing a sli gtx980 and the dual asus 4k monitors hinging on if Microsoft will deliver on win 10 so it's something I'm watching closely.
 
That would be incorrect 100%.
I wont get into it here, but you completely missed the point I was making...go price up a normal "consumer" desktop machine. Make sure you add on the warranty that's equivilent to the 12 months Applecare too, and a full office license. Then you'll be slightly closer, although personally I'd add at least $100 to cover the OS as Windows is worth absolutely naff all compared to OS X these days.

Also, when I say equal spec I'm including build quality. Not some flimsy dell plastic box.
 
Whilst a good point. My concern isn't pricing, I'll gladly pay for quality usable product (not garbage like windows 8 - charm bar edition). So if Windows 10 does prove to be a quality product that doesn't just cater for mobile users whilst forgetting desktop users then any price Microsoft attach is good for me. They did good with Windows 7 (i purchased that) and very happy with it so if they deliver on win10 pricing is not an issue at all for me.

However, a shoddy product is a show stopper which is my main and only concern. I'm holding off on purchasing a sli gtx980 and the dual asus 4k monitors hinging on if Microsoft will deliver on win 10 so it's something I'm watching closely.

Yup I kinda feel the same, along with the idea that Microsoft is not Apple and they should not be trying to emulate anything they do, product or philosophy (trying to convert desktop users to mobile users by changing the desktop up is a slap in the face no go.).

I had a message typed that said something quite similar to what you said plus my above sentiment but removed the draft earlier in the thread because it would probably be received wrong by the quick to pounce crowd but to sum it up...If they had costs go up because they made separate mobile and desktop operating systems I would not care, I just don't want to feel like I am playing with a 'speak and spell'. I wouldn't even care if they considered their mobile OS as a free product and offset the price of the desktop OS to cover the mobile's dev costs. Even if they charged 200 dollars for the OS, I wouldn't care as long as it was a desktop environment that was actually built with a productive desktop user in mind.

I also am happy with 7, and really they could have made minor improvements to it and I would have been completely happy with purchasing a new license.

The only gripe I still have is the limitation of how many times you can delete and reinstall your windows installation, I should not be required to have a phone or an internet connection to install software from a disc I bought after less than 10 instances of me wiping and reinstalling my desktop, to me that would be like a car company sells you a car and then after you fill your tank 10 times you need to call the manufacturer to get a code to unlock your gas cap and wait 35 minutes for a 2 way prompting automated call to give you the code you need. I feel like this is a gimmick to piss people off and get them to buy a new disc (time is money) because it only stops legit license holder, non-legits will just hacktivate it and this problem doesn't even effect those with their pre-activated black copies. All it does is piss people off who are actual customers.

All that aside...I need a rotating 4k monitor, I used to love my 40" lcd tv as a monitor, but now that I have been doing much more actual programming and 3d stuff I need the pixels so I can see more of what I am doing without scrolling/zooming and have more windows visible at once (that and rotating your neck to see your entire screen sucks). A rotating screen would be perfect for writing code and all in all the new 4k's won't heat my room to 84 degrees with the windows open during a snow. If you do end up getting a 4k and feel like letting us know how the ASUS turns out please tag me if you remember because I wouldn't mind much at all reading a review from an actual person who isn't paid to review stuff. Money is tight right now and before I could make the jump to a 4k I would like to hear from someone who actually has one (and asus is one of the two brands I was looking at for future purchase).

I wont get into it here, but you completely missed the point I was making...go price up a normal "consumer" desktop machine. Make sure you add on the warranty that's equivilent to the 12 months Applecare too, and a full office license. Then you'll be slightly closer, although personally I'd add at least $100 to cover the OS as Windows is worth absolutely naff all compared to OS X these days.

Also, when I say equal spec I'm including build quality. Not some flimsy dell plastic box.


I don't need a copy of office every time I buy a windows disc or a computer, and warranties are useless I never add them, if you know how to use and take care of your computer you wont need one (for surges and stuff you buy a protector that has equipment replacement policy for items damaged in a surge), and if you buy parts from a halfway decent company you can RMA defective parts for quite a long time at no cost to you without any additional warranty, I complained once with a 20 word sentence and the manufacturer contacted me and sent me a brand new board with no questions and no strings, no driving anywhere, no setting appointments, no standing in line at a mall shop being herded like cattle. Just parts sent directly to me with no bs overdone presentation and posturing all ending with a sincere apology none of which cost me anything.

MS vs APPLE will always be opinion, because I can say the same damn thing about apple and neither of us will be right. In my opinion a high end apple computer is all about having a custom built computer without having to know how to build one or being to lazy too. Since Apple does not make their own hardware (except their cases I assume) and they apply a markup to them, there is no way anyone will ever tell me that buying hardware from apple is a better deal because it is a fact that it is not (I may concede to the pro and it's GPU setup being a deal but that's about it).

It also is not appropriate to compare any mac to any computer you buy at walmart because if a walmart computer (most dells are = to walmart shelf computers) is a 'normal consumer' product then mac computers are premium computers that someone else assembled for you. Change mac assembling parts to you assembling them and what is the difference...a logo slapped on the box and a different OS.

For instance, I am selling a build with an i7, 24gb of mem, a 1000 watt PS etc for less than 400 dollars and don't feel like I am taking a loss, how much would a build like that cost someone to purchase from apple...I'll save you a reply and tell you that it will be more than 400 dollars and wont perform any better. By the way how much does it cost you to upgrade your mac with parts from them a year down the road? Can you even do that or do you need to read a 7000 page agreement to do so?

In the end while we are throwing opinions around I will just say for all it's faults, windows is better than mac and unless apple wants to throw me a demo build for free to try out and make a real assessment of their whole getup, there is nothing enticing me to buy one except the peer pressure from macheads which I just ignore anyways because from the point of view of someone who doesn't own a mac they are overpriced and getting an OS for free doesn't even come close to balancing the books.

The Mac culture itself is what keeps me from wanting to even try a mac, I just can't support blind loyalty to a symbol. I would much rather save thousands on my computer and pay 1 or 2 hundred dollars on the operating system of my choice then risk trying something based on an opinion/logic that really makes no sense to me.

At any rate if we are going to continue this MS vs Mac debate you should just start a new thread, that's all I am going to say in this thread about it and only said it because mac had to be brought up as being better than windows here in a thread about windows 10 which should have been expected.
 
Yup I kinda feel the same, along with the idea that Microsoft is not Apple and they should not be trying to emulate anything they do, product or philosophy (trying to convert desktop users to mobile users by changing the desktop up is a slap in the face no go.).

I had a message typed that said something quite similar to what you said plus my above sentiment but removed the draft earlier in the thread because it would probably be received wrong by the quick to pounce crowd but to sum it up...If they had costs go up because they made separate mobile and desktop operating systems I would not care, I just don't want to feel like I am playing with a 'speak and spell'. I wouldn't even care if they considered their mobile OS as a free product and offset the price of the desktop OS to cover the mobile's dev costs. Even if they charged 200 dollars for the OS, I wouldn't care as long as it was a desktop environment that was actually built with a productive desktop user in mind.

I also am happy with 7, and really they could have made minor improvements to it and I would have been completely happy with purchasing a new license.

The only gripe I still have is the limitation of how many times you can delete and reinstall your windows installation, I should not be required to have a phone or an internet connection to install software from a disc I bought after less than 10 instances of me wiping and reinstalling my desktop, to me that would be like a car company sells you a car and then after you fill your tank 10 times you need to call the manufacturer to get a code to unlock your gas cap and wait 35 minutes for a 2 way prompting automated call to give you the code you need. I feel like this is a gimmick to piss people off and get them to buy a new disc (time is money) because it only stops legit license holder, non-legits will just hacktivate it and this problem doesn't even effect those with their pre-activated black copies. All it does is piss people off who are actual customers.

All that aside...I need a rotating 4k monitor, I used to love my 40" lcd tv as a monitor, but now that I have been doing much more actual programming and 3d stuff I need the pixels so I can see more of what I am doing without scrolling/zooming and have more windows visible at once (that and rotating your neck to see your entire screen sucks). A rotating screen would be perfect for writing code and all in all the new 4k's won't heat my room to 84 degrees with the windows open during a snow. If you do end up getting a 4k and feel like letting us know how the ASUS turns out please tag me if you remember because I wouldn't mind much at all reading a review from an actual person who isn't paid to review stuff. Money is tight right now and before I could make the jump to a 4k I would like to hear from someone who actually has one (and asus is one of the two brands I was looking at for future purchase).




I don't need a copy of office every time I buy a windows disc or a computer, and warranties are useless I never add them, if you know how to use and take care of your computer you wont need one (for surges and stuff you buy a protector that has equipment replacement policy for items damaged in a surge), and if you buy parts from a halfway decent company you can RMA defective parts for quite a long time at no cost to you without any additional warranty, I complained once with a 20 word sentence and the manufacturer contacted me and sent me a brand new board with no questions and no strings, no driving anywhere, no setting appointments, no standing in line at a mall shop being herded like cattle. Just parts sent directly to me with no bs overdone presentation and posturing all ending with a sincere apology none of which cost me anything.

MS vs APPLE will always be opinion, because I can say the same damn thing about apple and neither of us will be right. In my opinion a high end apple computer is all about having a custom built computer without having to know how to build one or being to lazy too. Since Apple does not make their own hardware (except their cases I assume) and they apply a markup to them, there is no way anyone will ever tell me that buying hardware from apple is a better deal because it is a fact that it is not (I may concede to the pro and it's GPU setup being a deal but that's about it).

It also is not appropriate to compare any mac to any computer you buy at walmart because if a walmart computer (most dells are = to walmart shelf computers) is a 'normal consumer' product then mac computers are premium computers that someone else assembled for you. Change mac assembling parts to you assembling them and what is the difference...a logo slapped on the box and a different OS.

For instance, I am selling a build with an i7, 24gb of mem, a 1000 watt PS etc for less than 400 dollars and don't feel like I am taking a loss, how much would a build like that cost someone to purchase from apple...I'll save you a reply and tell you that it will be more than 400 dollars and wont perform any better. By the way how much does it cost you to upgrade your mac with parts from them a year down the road? Can you even do that or do you need to read a 7000 page agreement to do so?

In the end while we are throwing opinions around I will just say for all it's faults, windows is better than mac and unless apple wants to throw me a demo build for free to try out and make a real assessment of their whole getup, there is nothing enticing me to buy one except the peer pressure from macheads which I just ignore anyways because from the point of view of someone who doesn't own a mac they are overpriced and getting an OS for free doesn't even come close to balancing the books.

The Mac culture itself is what keeps me from wanting to even try a mac, I just can't support blind loyalty to a symbol. I would much rather save thousands on my computer and pay 1 or 2 hundred dollars on the operating system of my choice then risk trying something based on an opinion/logic that really makes no sense to me.

At any rate if we are going to continue this MS vs Mac debate you should just start a new thread, that's all I am going to say in this thread about it and only said it because mac had to be brought up as being better than windows here in a thread about windows 10 which should have been expected.

You know, another great point there. That was one grievance I have about windows 7 owning 2 other laptops and another desktop in that I couldn't have windows 7 legitimately running on them from the windows 7 I purchased. I always thought you could run your purchased copy of Windows 7 on a couple, even several machines but I was lucky and purchased a cheap copy of windows 7 a few times. Overall though I'm satisfied with it.

Totally with you there regarding the win 8 mobile device accommodating fiasco. Also agree if it meant desktop users get the usability they deserve I won't have any issue paying a premium price for it. It's common sense really that windows users do go out and pay for quality components (by nvidia, intel corsair etc etc) that we want a OS design and built for the power desktop user.

With regards to quality with the apple vs pc debate - lets not forget companies like nvidia, amd, intel etc etc who build quality components so if you one of those folks that build your pc from the ground up the quality build of that will match any Apple (probably exceed it) in many case to put the Apple vs PC quality control to bed.
 
You know, another great point there. That was one grievance I have about windows 7 owning 2 other laptops and another desktop in that I couldn't have windows 7 legitimately running on them from the windows 7 I purchased. I always thought you could run your purchased copy of Windows 7 on a couple, even several machines but I was lucky and purchased a cheap copy of windows 7 a few times. Overall though I'm satisfied with it.
Actually it's worse than that, if you install 'windows disk 1' to 'computer 1' and then decide you want to wipe it out and reinstall windows disk 1' to 'computer 1' that counts as a second running of the installation/validation routine. If you do that ten times only running one instance at a time you will not be able to use your serial anymore, it is effectively dead, that is the only problem I have with it, I really don't think I should need a phone and an internet connection to be able to install something I paid for because they feel I wiped my computer out too many times and all because I feel restoring my desktop from an image is stupid, because a disc image can get corrupted and they just wont recognize that.

They do have multi instance licenses though for the purpose you specified (or at least they used to) that you can install on multiple workstations/desktops.


Totally with you there regarding the win 8 mobile device accommodating fiasco. Also agree if it meant desktop users get the usability they deserve I won't have any issue paying a premium price for it. It's common sense really that windows users do go out and pay for quality components (by nvidia, intel corsair etc etc) that we want a OS design and built for the power desktop user.

With regards to quality with the apple vs pc debate - lets not forget companies like nvidia, amd, intel etc etc who build quality components so if you one of those folks that build your pc from the ground up the quality build of that will match any Apple (probably exceed it) in many case to put the Apple vs PC quality control to bed.
100% exactly what I am getting at about the construction, it's not about the people who put it together, it's about the parts which do the actual work being put together.
 
Whilst a good point. My concern isn't pricing, I'll gladly pay for quality usable product (not garbage like windows 8 - charm bar edition). So if Windows 10 does prove to be a quality product that doesn't just cater for mobile users whilst forgetting desktop users then any price Microsoft attach is good for me. They did good with Windows 7 (i purchased that) and very happy with it so if they deliver on win10 pricing is not an issue at all for me.

However, a shoddy product is a show stopper which is my main and only concern. I'm holding off on purchasing a sli gtx980 and the dual asus 4k monitors hinging on if Microsoft will deliver on win 10 so it's something I'm watching closely.

I just got pissed off that there aren't any gtx 970s in stock anywhere. Yes i know they are brand new but still I had a order from newegg canceled on me for no reason when one that I wanted was in stock. I've been eyeing the gigabyte 970 gaming edition mainly due to it's awesome cooling system. But nope. Hasn't been in stock since hour one of day one of them being for sale.

So I caved in and got a evga gtx 980 just now for $404. I'll be happy with it, anything is better then my current crappy hd radeon 6800 series gpu. And when I get another job (recently quit my current one) I'll probably save up and get a good 980 for the $600 price range. Atm the only thing the 900 series brings to the table for me is the new energy saving resources they have, nothing else.
 
I am running the Preview on my machines and I overall am loving it.

I just hate the fact that Metro has been dumbed down for idiots who couldn't get Windows 8 as I never had any real issue with it. Unfortunately I am the minority but i am glad to see Metro wasn't killed(I do not want to go back to just play Icons) and that while dumbed down for idiots, the stuff i love about Win 8 is there.
 
Lot of idiots.
Consider yourself lucky to be in the smart group.

Believe me i do ;) LOL

Anyway, I am more interested in windows 10 for Phone....While i love Windows on my Surface Pro, I wished Microsoft would've announced Windows 10 for phone so i can know what features are coming but alas 2015 is when we'll get more info.
 
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