XenForo 2.0 Discussion

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First, I just want to couch this by saying that we're not at a point where we can really give previews, sneak peeks, etc. If you haven't read my previous post discussing some of the concepts and considerations with 2.0, it's worth reading before you go any further: https://xenforo.com/community/threads/whats-next-for-xenforo.79603/page-38#post-889527 There are some specific bits that will have changed since then, but on the whole, it's still valid.

Fundamentally, XenForo 2.0 is still XenForo. We're not intending on going down a completely different path. You should expect the concepts and approaches you've learned from XenForo 1.x to still be relevant. To give a specific example, the code is fundamentally different, but the permissions concept is basically unchanged. Sure, there will be some UI changes and hopefully some other improvements, but we aren't necessarily coming in with the explicit notion of blowing things up for the sake of it. The most significant part of XenForo 2.0 development is reaching rough feature parity with 1.x. While there may be some smaller features or options that will be changed or removed, most features you use should still exist in some form.

From an end user standpoint, there will be UI changes. In some cases, it might be pretty much as is; in other cases, changes are certainly needed. I couldn't give any specific examples here yet. XenForo's UI is still based on approaches taken when we started developing it (and keep in mind the first beta was released over 5 years ago now). The way people interact with a website is vastly different today. But it's still XenForo. We'd anticipate the overall user flow to be similar to what it is now, though maybe we'll bring some other approaches in as options. Don't expect XenForo 2.0 to be a fundamentally different style of software from 1.x.

If you're questioning converting now or later, it's going to be hard for me to make a comment because most of that is down to your personal circumstances. I don't think I could tell you to convert or not convert based on 2.0; it's a project as a whole so no one would really be able to make that decision until they actually play with it (as a user and and admin). I appreciate that it isn't that helpful as we're not ready to show it off at this point, but there's always going to be a point in a project where that happens (unless there's no mention of it, but then that's just less information overall). Even once we show off some of the initial builds, there will still be an extended period of testing before we declare it stable. Essentially, it's still going to take a while for 2.0 to be ready. To be clearer, I wouldn't anticipate seeing that preview/alpha/beta/stable process until some time in 2016.

I understand it's a hard decision. I would say make decisions based on the state of things right now. No one can really guarantee whether a future release of any software is going to be great. That includes XenForo, but of course we'll do our best to make sure it is great. :)
 
the code is fundamentally different,
I find this curious. Can we get some sort of clarity on the conventions used? I want to make the assumption the MVC method will still be applicable, datawriters still be used, etc.. but I am curious. Are we just talking about minor changes in coding style, as every developer/development team goes through after years? I noticed a bit of it in the 1.5 branch (the tag model returns "$this" when possible whereas that was common in other places). Am I wrong about this and we should be expecting a much bigger change in the code?

I appreciate if you can't give real examples, it mostly comes down to curiosity for me.
 
There are definitely some big changes to some of the code concepts. They have been mentioned before, though, these two points in particular:
  • The base unit for working with data is no longer a bare array. It is now an object that represents the specific type, giving you access to call methods on that object or access other data related to it trivially (getting the forum from a thread from a post).

  • While you can still write SQL directly, most data access is done through a builder object. The builder can control what related data is fetched, what conditions are applied (including against related data) and the order of the results. This can be done in any order.
That said, as someone who went from being familiar with XF1 code, to moving to XF2, it wasn't totally alien, so you don't need to worry too much.
 
I find this curious. Can we get some sort of clarity on the conventions used?
The example you quoted was specific to permissions, which isn't necessarily relevant to the rest of the XF code, though what Chris pointed to is relevant in general.

The permission building is just organized very differently, which should make it much clearer to read and understand and ideally easier to reuse/expand.
 
There are definitely some big changes to some of the code concepts. They have been mentioned before, though, these two points in particular:

That said, as someone who went from being familiar with XF1 code, to moving to XF2, it wasn't totally alien, so you don't need to worry too much.

The example you quoted was specific to permissions, which isn't necessarily relevant to the rest of the XF code, though what Chris pointed to is relevant in general.

The permission building is just organized very differently, which should make it much clearer to read and understand and ideally easier to reuse/expand.

I appreciate the responses. I totally forgot about that part of the post that was referenced. That's my fault. Still excited to see some real life code examples. Get back to work you guys :). (Just kidding)
 
Will the URL structure of threads and user profiles be the same in XF 2.0 as it in XF 1.5?

I'm worried enough about changing the tens of thousands of URLs of an 11 year old vB forum and all the redirecting that goes along with that without having to worry about having to do it twice.

These are the kind of thoughts that stop me from migrating to XF until I understand a little better what XF 2.0 is going to be.
 
One thing that is concerning me -- and I suspect others too -- is that guys like @Daniel Hood are asking fundamental questions about 2.0.

Wouldn't it be better to get folks like him and other prominent add-on producers (there are only a few who produce or control a majority of add-ons) under NDA as the product matures, so they can wrap their arms around the changes, see what will be obsoleted, and possibly even think up of new add-ons before 2.0 has reached a final release?

Because otherwise, you're looking at -- literally -- months of waiting post-release of 2.0 before many production sites can even consider switching, as we can't do it without common add-ons being available.
 
For each major release (including 1.0) there were a number of non-final releases before the final release. It comes down to how long XenForo wants to run their public beta program once 2.0 is approaching a beta/release candidate state.
 
One thing that is concerning me -- and I suspect others too -- is that guys like @Daniel Hood are asking fundamental questions about 2.0.

Wouldn't it be better to get folks like him and other prominent add-on producers (there are only a few who produce or control a majority of add-ons) under NDA as the product matures, so they can wrap their arms around the changes, see what will be obsoleted, and possibly even think up of new add-ons before 2.0 has reached a final release?

Because otherwise, you're looking at -- literally -- months of waiting post-release of 2.0 before many production sites can even consider switching, as we can't do it without common add-ons being available.
There will be, almost certainly, months of hands-on usage before the final release by add-on developers and regular users. Plenty of add-ons will be ready on the day 2.0 officially releases.
 
Just to echo the above, although we haven't decided specifics, yet, as Mike said yesterday there would be an "extended period of testing". This is going to ensure the smoothest possible transition for everyone involved and ultimately shape the final product.
 
First, I just want to couch this by saying that we're not at a point where we can really give previews, sneak peeks, etc. If you haven't read my previous post discussing some of the concepts and considerations with 2.0, it's worth reading before you go any further: https://xenforo.com/community/threads/whats-next-for-xenforo.79603/page-38#post-889527 There are some specific bits that will have changed since then, but on the whole, it's still valid.

Fundamentally, XenForo 2.0 is still XenForo. We're not intending on going down a completely different path. You should expect the concepts and approaches you've learned from XenForo 1.x to still be relevant. To give a specific example, the code is fundamentally different, but the permissions concept is basically unchanged. Sure, there will be some UI changes and hopefully some other improvements, but we aren't necessarily coming in with the explicit notion of blowing things up for the sake of it. The most significant part of XenForo 2.0 development is reaching rough feature parity with 1.x. While there may be some smaller features or options that will be changed or removed, most features you use should still exist in some form.

From an end user standpoint, there will be UI changes. In some cases, it might be pretty much as is; in other cases, changes are certainly needed. I couldn't give any specific examples here yet. XenForo's UI is still based on approaches taken when we started developing it (and keep in mind the first beta was released over 5 years ago now). The way people interact with a website is vastly different today. But it's still XenForo. We'd anticipate the overall user flow to be similar to what it is now, though maybe we'll bring some other approaches in as options. Don't expect XenForo 2.0 to be a fundamentally different style of software from 1.x.

If you're questioning converting now or later, it's going to be hard for me to make a comment because most of that is down to your personal circumstances. I don't think I could tell you to convert or not convert based on 2.0; it's a project as a whole so no one would really be able to make that decision until they actually play with it (as a user and and admin). I appreciate that it isn't that helpful as we're not ready to show it off at this point, but there's always going to be a point in a project where that happens (unless there's no mention of it, but then that's just less information overall). Even once we show off some of the initial builds, there will still be an extended period of testing before we declare it stable. Essentially, it's still going to take a while for 2.0 to be ready. To be clearer, I wouldn't anticipate seeing that preview/alpha/beta/stable process until some time in 2016.

I understand it's a hard decision. I would say make decisions based on the state of things right now. No one can really guarantee whether a future release of any software is going to be great. That includes XenForo, but of course we'll do our best to make sure it is great. :)
There's no rush. XenForo 1.x is already great and unless there's some fundamental non-technical reason to release alpha 2.0, I'd hold it off until 2018. As the owners you have this flexibility to make your own rules; you don't want to fragment the community at this stage, I've been looking at the charts and XenForo has been blowing up [in a good way].

If you wanted to make a big change to the default UI I'm sure it's possible without changing the core in a significant way as a 1.x update.

xf-flagpole.png
 
I just hope you can give us a roadmap of some sort about XF2. We (and many with us I guess) would like to know what we're dealing with. I'll be waiting for that patiently :)
 
Because otherwise, you're looking at -- literally -- months of waiting post-release of 2.0 before many production sites can even consider switching, as we can't do it without common add-ons being available.

Speaking personally, I'm happy to wait until, say, 2020 to upgrade. ;) Months of waiting would be fine with me. It's enough work just keeping up with the maintenance releases and worrying about whether add-ons and styles are compatible.

BTW, I'm not sure at all what Mike means when he says that using Web sites today is substantially different than it was 5 years ago--unless he's referring specifically to, say, Facebook and Twitter.
 
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