I assume the $173 will finish all ibaker's requests.
$173 on a supposed $300 job isn't horrible.
Both of you "own" the code.
WARNING - Don't get burnt by Waindigo
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$173 on a supposed $300 job isn't horrible.
Both of you "own" the code.
Jon W
Well-known member
Is that the original add-on that is on his site at the moment, or the original add-on included in the vb file. And what about the fact the XenForo is not VB (hence it would never by an exact copy)? We are not at this point because the requirements were clear and unambiguous.
I take my share of the blame for not clarifying them.
Adam Howard
Well-known member
Exact meaning all features which the original vBulletin add-on offered, but made for XenForo. Clearly this was what was requested and paid for.
You also do not have the right to change an agreement after it has been agreed upon with payment.
This should be a learning experience for you. You should be as up front as possible before taking a job and befor accepting payment.
The job was quoted in estimated hours, right from the start.
Where do you say the agreement was changed ?
Nevermind anyway.
Let's write this off as lessons learned by both parties.
...That was an unnecessary statement
And shall I remind some of you if some private developers weren't there now (I mean with the trial problem) this forum wouldn't be as active as it is today.
Waindigo commits some mistakes but if I remember what I read some others did it too. Waindigo apologized and seems to want to find a solution.
No need to burn him alive
Screen shot showing clearly the fields that are displayed is in the manual (pdf):
What was provided:
Yet you said in your conversation:
"However, I am basing my estimate on your description above and the PDF that I have read"
If the pdf manual was read, the fields that are displayed in the screenshot is included in the price because that is what is in the requirements
What was provided:
Yet you said in your conversation:
"However, I am basing my estimate on your description above and the PDF that I have read"
If the pdf manual was read, the fields that are displayed in the screenshot is included in the price because that is what is in the requirements
He said in the communication:
'I was hoping you didn't want those features'....to me that says he made an agreement and left out the fact that he didn't plan on implementing the addon into xf as a 1:1 refactoring of the code.
As far as writing this off...easy to say when it is not your money or time. It is not a solution.
Adam Howard
Well-known member
We can agree to disagree....That was an unnecessary statement
And shall I remind some of you if some private developers weren't there now (I mean with the trial problem) this forum wouldn't be as active as it is today.
Waindigo commits some mistakes but if I remember what I read some others did it too. Waindigo apologized and seems to want to find a solution.
No need to burn him alive
I'm actually waiting for the trail to be over so that more qualified and professional developers join onto XenForo. I know of 4 here so far and odds are high that my list would not match your list.
Jon W
Well-known member
Ouch.
I was a bit surprised to find this thread as this is a different to my experience of Waindigo.
I have carefully read ibaker's post and the attached record of conversations. This is what I found.
The roots of the problems lie in the early communication, before work began or in the first stage.
A major disagreement is whether the job was estimated or quoted.
ibaker says in his post that it was quoted, that is, Waindigo gave a fixed price.
But in the text file Waindigo says:
This is therefore an estimate not a fixed quote.
It would have been better to have used the term "estimate" but to anyone at all used to business, which ibaker clearly is, this is obviously an estimate, and an offer of 5 hours work which "should be" enough.
ibaker in his post is very contemptuous of the first draft done.
However that is not his reaction in the log.
The Paypal issue is a tricky one. Some coders I know on this site do ask for personal payment to protect against unfair cancellation. It;s up to the client whether they choose to accept the recommendation or not.
IMPORTANT From the log ibaker accepted the method of payment so has no position to complain of it later.
MORE IMPORTANT any complaint to Paypal by ibaker or anyone else would bring serious trouble for ibaker. (His Paypal address is now public.)
Waindigo can be seen as at fault together with others like him, for suggesting this method on record.
But the person who commits fraud is the person who makes the payment in this way - the client.
Waindigo says in his terms (text file)
But Waindigo means more: he is trying to protect his integrity as a designer. A difficult area that needs to be clearer at the outset.
Waindigo is not happy about the quantity of features and comments that ibaker's request to use the new google API will add to costs.
Waindigo refers to distributing the addon himself (ownership)
However this seems to be an area which had NOT been clearly stated and understood by both sides at the start. A coder shuld always state this issue clearly AND a client should always ask and check it, if it is not stated. Neither side weer clear enough about this and it caused bad feeling later.
Later on there is argument based on the misunderstanding on a Waindigo estimate or quote. ibaker wants the job done within the original estimate. Waindigo says it can't be done "mainly because of the google API" and willl not continue without more payment.
Both get puffed up and boast of professional status, long years of experience etc. It goes downhill badly.
I have carefully read ibaker's post and the attached record of conversations. This is what I found.
The roots of the problems lie in the early communication, before work began or in the first stage.
A major disagreement is whether the job was estimated or quoted.
ibaker says in his post that it was quoted, that is, Waindigo gave a fixed price.
But in the text file Waindigo says:
Waindigo only states that the work “should be” possible in 4-5 hours. In the second statement he speaks clearly of a prepayment for 5 hours work.
This is therefore an estimate not a fixed quote.
It would have been better to have used the term "estimate" but to anyone at all used to business, which ibaker clearly is, this is obviously an estimate, and an offer of 5 hours work which "should be" enough.
ibaker in his post is very contemptuous of the first draft done.
However that is not his reaction in the log.
The Paypal issue is a tricky one. Some coders I know on this site do ask for personal payment to protect against unfair cancellation. It;s up to the client whether they choose to accept the recommendation or not.
IMPORTANT From the log ibaker accepted the method of payment so has no position to complain of it later.
MORE IMPORTANT any complaint to Paypal by ibaker or anyone else would bring serious trouble for ibaker. (His Paypal address is now public.)
Waindigo can be seen as at fault together with others like him, for suggesting this method on record.
But the person who commits fraud is the person who makes the payment in this way - the client.
Waindigo says in his terms (text file)
This later caused immense trouble. The way it is stated here is unclear as it sounds like the client gets it looking the way they want it, only the coding is different on backend.
But Waindigo means more: he is trying to protect his integrity as a designer. A difficult area that needs to be clearer at the outset.
Waindigo is not happy about the quantity of features and comments that ibaker's request to use the new google API will add to costs.
There was then a misunderstanding because Waindigo said he would not charge for the extra time it would need to learn this new system. ibaker thought he said he WOULD charge for this time. Waindigo confirmed what he had originally said - that he was NOT charging for it, but damage was done.
Waindigo refers to distributing the addon himself (ownership)
This is a definite statement of ownership. ibaker appears to accept this as he does not object.
However this seems to be an area which had NOT been clearly stated and understood by both sides at the start. A coder shuld always state this issue clearly AND a client should always ask and check it, if it is not stated. Neither side weer clear enough about this and it caused bad feeling later.
Later on there is argument based on the misunderstanding on a Waindigo estimate or quote. ibaker wants the job done within the original estimate. Waindigo says it can't be done "mainly because of the google API" and willl not continue without more payment.
Both get puffed up and boast of professional status, long years of experience etc. It goes downhill badly.
Adam Howard
Well-known member
^^ THIS
Mistakes were made by both parties.
I did the exact same thing as I have done here with another developer of a mod that I got a vb developer to create and then needed it to be done for XF. It was done by an XF developer to the exact price given and exactly as per the specs, even field name to field name as the vb mod. I then released it here for everyone to use it for free:
http://xenforo.com/community/resources/news-reader.417/
The News Reader was a vb mod that I paid a developer to create. It was created without any issues. I then paid an XF developer to convert it, again it was done without any issues.
http://xenforo.com/community/resources/news-reader.417/
The News Reader was a vb mod that I paid a developer to create. It was created without any issues. I then paid an XF developer to convert it, again it was done without any issues.
That's very sweet words for developers, even 'small ones' like me who are doing the best they can to support XenForo now.
Nothing more to add except that I'm very surprised by your reaction after the problems you had a few weeks ago.
According to my rates, for my time, I've spent $200 on this issue so far.
[wink]$173 to close this seems fair.
Is this agreeable by both parties ?
Adam Howard
Well-known member
It depends on how you see it.
profiteer
Free
Small jobs
Coder
XenForo has a lot of free and small job developers. Coder is someone who could release their own forum software. But who also has demonstrated friendly communication and easy to work with.
For the record. I would not fall under the "coder" group. I'd count myself under the "small job" group.
But don't take my words out of context. I'm thankful for everyone who is here. I just personally am and continue to be hesitant to seek employing people here.
...and how is this any form of compromise on Waindigo's partAccording to my rates, for my time, I've spent $200 on this issue so far.
$173 to close this seems fair.
Is this agreeable by both parties ?
Jon W
Well-known member
The ownership issue is a bigger deal for me. I'm willing to compromise on price if you are willing to compromise on this.
Where?
I'm not an advanced developer but from personal experience of reporting bugs to Waindigo on his free add-ons he has promptly fixed and addressed the issue. I've never had it break my site to pieces except once... and it was fixed pretty fast 
He even offered to personally fix it.
I see this as bad rep for Waindigo and I side quite a bit with ibaker about being ripped off. I hope everything works out because we lack developers who actually put stuff out. Waindigo puts stuff out and I'm reluctant to recommend a combination of his modifications to create something people need.
I know how some people feel about his scripts but I've never had an issue yet or at least one that I see. Again I've always been able to get him to fix it fairly quick! In my experience he is reasonable and I hope that this fixes itself and doesn't affect his future releases and developments.
He even offered to personally fix it.I see this as bad rep for Waindigo and I side quite a bit with ibaker about being ripped off. I hope everything works out because we lack developers who actually put stuff out. Waindigo puts stuff out and I'm reluctant to recommend a combination of his modifications to create something people need.
I know how some people feel about his scripts but I've never had an issue yet or at least one that I see. Again I've always been able to get him to fix it fairly quick! In my experience he is reasonable and I hope that this fixes itself and doesn't affect his future releases and developments.
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