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WARNING - Don't get burnt by Waindigo

Discussion in 'Resource and Add-on Discussions' started by ibaker, Oct 13, 2012.

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  1. ibaker

    ibaker Well-Known Member

    I am making this post as warning to other XF users that may wish to obtain the services of an external developer to create an enhancement for your site. We all know that there can be problems when dealing with people who claim to know what they are doing and yes there are many "Don't Do's" derived from the unfortunate experiences of others and that is what this post is about. This is one of those experiences and hopefully others may learn not to deal with this person who calls himself Waindigo (real name Jon Wainwright) or if you choose to then at least hopefully this post will serve as an advisory caution when doing so.

    I had a mod on my old vb site that needed to be converted to XF. I am currently using a version that has been amended to work in an iframe on an XF page however the work load to manage it is enormous given it is not integrated with XF and sits in a vb install within my XF site.

    I approached Waindigo to provide a price to convert the mod to XF. A price that you hope will be for what you are asking for and that a certain amount of professionalism and knowledge in providing a quote for what you are asking for.

    It is important to note from the outset of what I provided Waindigo for him to provide a quote from:
    All the vb files of code, including the php file, the xml file of templates used and their code, the database tables needed and the fields within those tables that are needed.
    The comprehensive manual of the mod including screen shots, field lists, installation and use
    A link to it being used on my own web site
    ...ALL of the above was provided so he could perform a comprehensive analysis that would enable him to provide a reasonably accurate price PLUS the ability to know EXACTLY what was needed.

    Waindigo submitted a price to create the XF version of the vb mod of which I accepted.

    The first example of his work contained hardly any of the features of the example that was given, included bugs and had obviously not had any testing. When asked about all the other features his reply was "I hoped you didn't want them". When I said that I did he said he would only include some of them.

    He also advised then that he hadn't any knowledge in the technologies used by the mod but that he wasn't charging me for him to learn about it. Note he didn't advise prior to accepting payment that he didn't have any knowledge in what was needed.

    He provided a 2nd version with some bug fixes but still without the features that replicated the mod that was to be converted like not having a field that records the user who entered an entry even though the first page of the manual, plus more, had a screen shot of all the fields that were required.

    He then tried to tell me that he has the right to change any of the requirements in any way he wanted to.

    I advised him that the mod was not what I needed and paid for, it didn't do what the vb mod example, that I provided him with, does and thus is not usable.

    At this stage he then says that he owns the code and says "oops, sorry I didn't tell you".

    I advised him that as I was paying him to provide a service, and that I provided him with what I needed, and he didn't advise in his quote or prior to accepting money from me, that I owned the code PLUS would he provide the service that I paid for based on the details of what was given to him.

    Now, he will not provide anything that is usable, his previous work, that is missing the required components of the mod, contains many bugs that he admits to, yet has not provided anything that has them rectified, and has now undertaken to extortion in saying that he won't provide the product, that doesn't include what I asked for, until I pay him more money.

    I have attached a text file that shows the conversation with him from day 1 about all this for you to see exactly what he, what I can only call a crook and thief, is like. You can see for yourself what you may have to go through if you ever get Waindigo to do any kind of work for you. Sure, there may be a small job that he has done for others that, only by the grace of God, have worked out for them but are you prepared to risk dealing with him given this outcome and that you can see exactly for yourself, what he is like?

    I am now out nearly $300, do not even have a bug free product of any kind or a product resembling anything like what I asked for, based on what was provided to him.

    Things to note in the attached text file conversation with him are:
    - There were no questions about the work to be done prior to his quote, acceptance of his quote, payment requested and payment made so one can only assume he was fully aware of what was required
    - His admission that he didn't know anything about the technologies that were required to be used in the mod.
    - His arrogance towards his customer e.g. talking about how many hours he has been on this planet, his statements on how I should run my site and if I don't run my site his way then he will not provide me with the tools that I need, and have paid him to provide, to do so etc
    - His demand of changing the deal that was entered into by later changing the conditions of engagement by saying he owned the work that I paid him to do...even admitting that he didn't tell me of a condition prior to paying him money to provide me with what I required.

    As a footnote I will say that I have used many developers to either create addons or perform work for me and every single one of them has conducted themselves professionally, with integrity, and delivered EXACTLY what was required and paid for without any trouble what so ever. These include people here on XF like Naatan, Slavik, Blandt, Steve@Codiums (he created the XF version of my vb mod "News Reader" http://xenforo.com/community/resources/news-reader.417/) plus others, also developers when I was using vb, so I guess that I have been lucky till now. The above are great people and I would recommend them without hesitation.

    Waindigo has conned me out of nearly $300 so I am posting this as a caution for all XF owners to hopefully take note and be more informed when dealing with Waindigo...you could be lucky OR he could put you through what he has done to me, take your money and give you nothing.

    I have many more mods, enhancements etc that I need to get done so I will be looking for someone that is reputable, professional and capable to do them...then this character?

    Thanks for listening
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 5, 2013
    Crazy-Achmet likes this.
  2. melbo

    melbo Well-Known Member

    I've learned over the years that this is normally a flag...
     
    D.O.A. and 0xym0r0n like this.
  3. ibaker

    ibaker Well-Known Member

    Thanks Melbo, I wasn't aware of that till now
     
  4. BGL

    BGL Well-Known Member

    A good example of why agreed on progress payments/milestones are a good idea. Nobody gets in too deep.
     
    Dan, 0xym0r0n and Walter like this.
  5. DRE

    DRE Well-Known Member

    No offense to Waindigo but those convo's don't surprise me at all no offense but you suck dude, no offense love your work, you still suck, no offense, oh yeah thanks for library it's awesome, you suck btw, just kidding oh btw alot of your mods break my site so you still suck, haha just kidding no forreal they did break my site but it's okay cause some of them were free so you don't suck that bad, just kidding you don't suck at all. hahahah okay maybe a tad bit but sometimes the awesomeness outweighs the suckiness, except when your being an azzhole with your quotes but it's all good cause Jesus still loves you, oh and I 5 starred a lot of your mods so you can't suck that much right? Most definitely not... until sh!t hits the fan then it's like F U DUDE YOU SUCK! especially with that copyright removal crap, i mean who does that? Just you and Dragonbyte and we hate that sh!t but it doesn't matter because you end up making a cool mod every now and then that outweighs the suckiness and floats you to the realm of awesome, but only for awhile then it's back to the usual same ole shiet. Waindigo, what's good breh?
     
    Steve F, karll, 0xym0r0n and 2 others like this.
  6. melbo

    melbo Well-Known Member

    I don't know the specifics of the deal other than your side but would think it a given that if I paid someone hundreds of dollars to create a piece of software for me, it would belong to me. From the attached, it would also appear that you would begin to have a copyright notice in your footer after 12 months unless you paid more? This would be unacceptable to me.

    Paypal cancels accounts for avoidance of fees charged for services...
     
  7. robdog

    robdog Well-Known Member

    I not sure why but I do have a man crush on 8thos...
     
  8. bubbl3

    bubbl3 Active Member

    Well, until the other part explains his point of view, what is certainly clear is that there wasn't enough transparency in this business transaction.
     
  9. ibaker

    ibaker Well-Known Member

    Everything for you to go by is:
    1. The vb mod including all the files and the manual that was provided can be downloaded from:
    http://www.recreationalflying.com/airstrips.zip
    Note the screen shots and information contained in the manual that was provided to him

    2. Every communication is in the text file attached to the OP...nothing else of relevance was said

    3. An image showing the differences in the fields of data that were to be captured compared to what he did, the information that is displayed to a user compared to what he has done (the manual even shows screen shots of what fields are displayed) is attached...very obvious in the shortcomings of what he provided
    2.jpg

    Screen shot on the first page of the provided manual:
    3.jpg

    That is everything that has occurred and the files of the mod that were provided is one hell of a requirements document and enough to ascertain not only a price but the skills required which he admits he didn't have in the text conversation file. Plus as you can see by the text conversation of how he comes back later after the deal is done that he forgot to say that he owns the work that I have paid him to do and is now applying that condition...after the money was paid

    It is up to him...he can give a full refund which means he can keep his work and we can both be on our way OR deliver a product based on what was provided, screen shots, code and all, as provided in this post above for you, for the price quoted and I maintain code ownership...then this matter would be finished...I have provided all the facts for you to make up your own mind.
     
  10. cclaerhout

    cclaerhout Well-Known Member

    I don't want to interfere in that thread but a few comments:
    • It's also the only way to avoid some members ask for a refund 10 minutes after they bought an addon, and then see your addon leaked on warez board (Paypal policy is sometimes very strange, developers here now it very well). Now considering the situation described in that thread, it's of course not the case. I just wanted to underline the word "normally". :)
    • 300 dollars are of course a quite amount of money for 1 person, but if you really count ALL hours to develop, debug and update, it's nothing (of course it depends on which kind of addon). Especially if it's a one shot payment AND there is not a kind of annual contract to keep the addon updated AND the developer can't sell this addon to anyone else. Of course, both of you seem to have agreed (I didn't read the attached file) the terms... so good luck to both of you to deal with that.

     
    HWS likes this.
  11. ibaker

    ibaker Well-Known Member

    When all said and done, it is out there to show everyone as a warning to what he does and by looking at the conversation plus everything else, everyone will be able to make their own mind up now whether to use him at all or one of the great developers that can be found here on XF as I have done in the past and the next one I use I will be more the wiser, which I hope this thread does for others...even in some small way that others can help protect themselves from this ever happening to them...it does make it bad for the really good developers that are here on XF though.
     
    Shelley likes this.
  12. BamaStangGuy

    BamaStangGuy Well-Known Member

    After I saw this comment long ago, I never wanted anything to do with him: Screen Shot 2012-10-13 at 1.01.02 AM.png
     
    D.O.A., euantor, Ingenious and 2 others like this.
  13. Forsaken

    Forsaken Well-Known Member

    As you said it's against their TOS, and will get their account closed if evidence is shown, or if large amounts of money are transferred. Paypal follows the close first, deal with repercussion later model of detecting abuse.

    Use a shopping cart and be sure that the good is labeled as non-tangible/digital. Unless the account is proven to be hacked they will not be able to chargeback unless done through a credit card, in which case you're not protected by Paypal but can report as fraud on the buyers part. ibaker is also a well-known user who's reputation would be at stake if he scammed, making such a precaution kind of moot.

    While there are misunderstandings (who owns the code etc), it is generally the responsibility of the coder to lay out the terms they follow. If they require an additional fee for code ownership, they need to state it. In this case however, the original code was property of ibaker, and it makes almost no sense that Waindigo should own the product in anyway.

    Waindigo isn't wrong; Jaxel completely disregards everyone else and does his own thing which causes issues for many people (Including me). His add-on isn't (Or wasn't, because I had to take the time to fix it) compatible with my framework when sidebar collapse is turned on because he re-uses the .sidebar class for his portals blocks. I don't tell my users to leave him bad feedback or harass him, just that they should avoid his add-ons due to his support and attitude.
     
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  14. melbo

    melbo Well-Known Member

    I understand that PP payments made as personal aren't able to be reversed (offers protection) but in the .txt file, he states that he wants it paid that way to avoid paypal fees (WTH? 3%?). Charging for a service and suggesting a way to avoid PP fees is against PP ToS. For any business to suggest this is shady - regardless of the rest of the story.

    FWIW, I've contracted with a few devs here and explicitly stated that I wanted them to keep the code and use it for themselves, distribute or sell, with no strings attached. These instances weren't for hundreds of dollars though. I also donate to kind folks on a pretty regular basis. If the txt is accurate. I support the outing of a bad business practice.
     
  15. Sadik B

    Sadik B Well-Known Member

    Hi ibaker

    I have been working online both sometimes as a buyer of services and often as a contractor and here's my advice to you or anyone who is interested

    As a buyer,
    1. Always use an escrow service. Do not work with anyone no matter how reputable, if he/she asks for money in advance. Quality contractors know that once the client has seen their work they will be customers for life so they are not interested in short term immediate gain.
    2. Be as specific as possible, screenshots, examples, documentations, mockups etc of what you want will help you get better results
    3. Value Quality. If you understand that something requires a lot of work, do not try and buy it for cheap. You will always only get what you pay for. A Quality developer's one hour development time is worth at least $50.
    As a contractor
    1. Always use an escrow service. Do not work with anyone who have any excuse for not using an escrow service. Of course when long term relationships are made, escrow isn't a must but still the better option.
    2. Do not underquote. Under Quoting makes you lose motivation and provide sub standard results. In the long term that product will only cause problems. People who value quality will be willing to pay the right price. Those who want things cheap aren't worth the time.
    3. Do not mind the extra time required if something unplanned comes up which you realize will improve the quality of the product. If you do it perfectly, you can ask for a bonus. A satisfied client will more than happily give you a bonus which is better than you arguing for more money without showing the client your work.
    If you think who am I to be giving advice, look at my elance profile. :)

    And lastly, I can understand ibaker's frustration but washing your dirty laundry in public is never ever a good idea. Also Jon has made some brilliant addons which he releases for free so I cannot judge him based on this one bad example alone. I have bought one of his addons for a commercial site and he was more than professional.
     
    HWS, Andrej and Rigel Kentaurus like this.
  16. ibaker

    ibaker Well-Known Member

    You guys may be forgetting one thing...I don't have a working product of any kind to show for my money but as included in the conversation notes he won't give me anything till I pay him more money...isn't that just straight out extortion along with the PayPal con?
     
  17. Adam Howard

    Adam Howard Well-Known Member

    His option C that he claims.... Is illegal, not to forget immoral.

    I'd publicly release what you have. You paid for the code, you own it.

    He only tried to change that after getting paid which makes his "claim" invalid.
     
  18. Brentnauer

    Brentnauer Well-Known Member

    Wow, shame on you, Waindigo.

    The amount of time you spent arguing with ibaker is probably almost as much time as it would take to get you 80 to 90 percent of the way to what you agreed upon.

    ibaker, I'd file a dispute with PayPal if I were you. Even if you can't get your money back, it may lead to them red-flagging his account so he can't pull this crap in the future.
     
    D.O.A. and Adam Howard like this.
  19. ibaker

    ibaker Well-Known Member

    Seems I am not the only one he has done this to...received a PM from another person who says Waindigo did the same thing to him
     
  20. Brentnauer

    Brentnauer Well-Known Member

    Perhaps that person would like to share?
     
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