WARNING - Don't get burnt by Waindigo
- Thread starter ibaker
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melbo
Well-known member
One report of fee 'avoidance' to PP will get the account canceled and it will take 3-6 months to extract any monies from that account. PP frowns on fee dodgers who use their service - just as said coder frowns upon those who expect free work or discount.
I'm normally a lurker on the XF forum but this has struck a nerve as I've had a couple of really bad deals in my past.
Digital Doctor
Well-known member
Waindigo has done lots of good stuff in the past. 
I must admit I was surprised with this thread. First impressions of Waindigo implied he was a decent guy who could create mods and who's released a bunch of useful free mods and seemed like a decent person.
It does seem from what I've read that there wasn't complete transparency and clarity between client and coder, which is always going to create issues. Things like ownership of code I would be fairly certain to say if I made an add-on for somebody and they're paying me for it, they're paying me for ownership of that code.
I suppose this is an expensive learning process for ibaker, and hopefully now you can ask the right questions before requesting the services of a coder
As for Waindigo - shame on you for your extortion. If you couldn't provide, you could've just done what ibaker wanted, negotiated a refund (partial or full) and allowed ibaker to go elsewhere to have the add-on finished.
It does seem from what I've read that there wasn't complete transparency and clarity between client and coder, which is always going to create issues. Things like ownership of code I would be fairly certain to say if I made an add-on for somebody and they're paying me for it, they're paying me for ownership of that code.
I suppose this is an expensive learning process for ibaker, and hopefully now you can ask the right questions before requesting the services of a coder
As for Waindigo - shame on you for your extortion. If you couldn't provide, you could've just done what ibaker wanted, negotiated a refund (partial or full) and allowed ibaker to go elsewhere to have the add-on finished.
Jon W
Well-known member
While I completely respect ibaker's right to warn others of dealing with me based on his experience, I would rather not get into a long debate about the specifics of this case. I think most of my points have already been made (perhaps rather badly) in the conversation that is now (unfortunately) in the public domain.
I am sorry to everyone who feels let down by this.
I'm interested that you say this and hadn't realised that this was the case. It was suggested to me by a customer when I started selling add-ons about 10 months ago that I should do this. I would never refuse anyone's right to use PayPal's dispute service etc. and if they wanted to pay with fees then I would request that they add this on top of my quote. Like you say, it is only 3%.
It is just not feasible to have lots of progress payments/milestones for a 5 hour job. I think ibaker refers to a first copy that I sent him. This was around half way through the job and he seemed relatively happy at that point.
Couldn't have summed it up better myself. I am usually working on XenForo from the moment I wake up in a morning to last thing at night trying to please everyone and failing miserably. When things like this happen I just want to go in a corner and cry, but this is my business and my life and sitting in a corner crying isn't an option.
Almost every add-on that has been released on these forums has been paid for in this way. Regarding the copyright notice, he would only have to put this on his site if he kept updating his add-on with new features that he hasn't paid for. This only becomes an issue because I release add-ons publicly -- if everything was kept private, then no new features would be developed for his add-on. So he is in no worse position because I release his add-ons publicly other than that he doesn't own the add-on.
This is not the case. While the add-on is not working perfectly now, I have said I would fixed the bugs. I think I have said this several times in the conversation that has been posted and have never said anything differently.
Don't worry, I feel ashamed.
I won't be bullied into doing extra work without being paid. My ability to program is the skill that I am charging for. I wouldn't ask anyone else on this site to do what they do for a living for free for me, so it would be nice if people didn't expect me to do the same. Quite clearly my ability to do deal appropriately with upset customers is not my main skill.
If the general consensus is that ibaker deserves his money back, then he will get it.
I am sorry to everyone who feels let down by this.
Digital Doctor
Well-known member
I'll assume it's about money.
This one is probably clear.
ibaker wanted his vB mod converted to XF.
It either is or isn't working like the vB mod did.
If it isn't, Waindigo should either make it so, or refund.
I doubt the "extra work" argument qualifies.
I'll read the first post to make sure.
Updates:
(1)
(2) $300 for this complicated mod seems too cheap. Waindigo should have quoted more.
(3) In fairness to Waindigo, he did quote the job in hours, not dollars.
This one is probably clear.
ibaker wanted his vB mod converted to XF.
It either is or isn't working like the vB mod did.
If it isn't, Waindigo should either make it so, or refund.
I doubt the "extra work" argument qualifies.
I'll read the first post to make sure.
Updates:
(1)
Winning.
(2) $300 for this complicated mod seems too cheap. Waindigo should have quoted more.
(3) In fairness to Waindigo, he did quote the job in hours, not dollars.
Digital Doctor
Well-known member
How much is it going to cost to finish this ?
Jon W
Well-known member
Bugs are always fixed free of charge and I also said that he was not obliged to pay for the additional hour. So he will have a working add-on once these are all fixed. Requests have been made for additional features and there will obviously be further costs for this, which I think have all been outlined in the conversation attached by ibaker.
HenrikHansen
Well-known member
Can we have a link to the vb mod?
Jon W
Well-known member
EQnoble
Well-known member
I don't want to be involved because of legal things I am dealing with in my personal life at the moment...however...I will put my opinion out there hopefully leaving no hard feelings.
I have spoken to the OP on a couple of occasions previous to this and can say that he is quite a straight shooter, ofter right to the point and eager to get things done. His mannerism to me says that he is quite interested in professionalism and civility. I tend to side with him on this issue because of the facts presented and the way he communicates as far as him being clear with what he wants. In this case he wanted all functionality from the original mod I believe.
To me the job was misquoted and not the customers fault. He is hiring someone because he is not a developer specializing in gdata maps specifics and therefor shouldn't be the one responsible for knowing if someone is capable of working with it nor is it his responsibility to pay someone to learn.
example, I customized a style for someone recently for which I was compensated. I was lurking through links of stuff I have done up to this point and saw some things on the customers site that needed fixing, I took the initiative to fix it and don't expect anything for it because I told them how long it took or was going to take from the get go and they paid me. I was already compensated, I also told them in the first place it would take me three hours which is what I charged them for even though it took me slightly longer. It was my fault for not catching an error in the first place and I do not believe it is their responsibility to find my errors, point them out to me and then barter to fix them.
I have spoken to the OP on a couple of occasions previous to this and can say that he is quite a straight shooter, ofter right to the point and eager to get things done. His mannerism to me says that he is quite interested in professionalism and civility. I tend to side with him on this issue because of the facts presented and the way he communicates as far as him being clear with what he wants. In this case he wanted all functionality from the original mod I believe.
To me the job was misquoted and not the customers fault. He is hiring someone because he is not a developer specializing in gdata maps specifics and therefor shouldn't be the one responsible for knowing if someone is capable of working with it nor is it his responsibility to pay someone to learn.
example, I customized a style for someone recently for which I was compensated. I was lurking through links of stuff I have done up to this point and saw some things on the customers site that needed fixing, I took the initiative to fix it and don't expect anything for it because I told them how long it took or was going to take from the get go and they paid me. I was already compensated, I also told them in the first place it would take me three hours which is what I charged them for even though it took me slightly longer. It was my fault for not catching an error in the first place and I do not believe it is their responsibility to find my errors, point them out to me and then barter to fix them.
Adam Howard
Well-known member
And that is where you are wrong.
Look I've had 5 coders do what you're trying to do here. All 5 decided to get legal with me and all 5 lost and ended up paying me in my counter suite.
- He paid for the job he owns the code
- You did not deliver for what he wanted for the agreed upon price.
- Finishing only part of it and demanding more money to complete the work
- Threatening - Stating that you'll publicly release it with all the features he originally wanted, but he must agree to new terms; including a copyright... Unless he wants to pay more
Digital Doctor
Well-known member
Digital Doctor said: How much is it going to cost to finish this ?
Answer the question as best as possible please.
To meet ibaker's request, how much past the $300 is it going to cost ?
Answer the question as best as possible please.
To meet ibaker's request, how much past the $300 is it going to cost ?
cclaerhout
Well-known member
Well it might depend on your country regulation then. I can speak for France, whatever the field of expertise is (music, video, articles, etc) the author is the owner of what he created even if he sold it to someone, unless the contract had a legal statement that transfers the copyright to the buyer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_France
ibaker
Well-known member
If Waindigo had said it would cost $500 and he owns the code, or he said $1,000 and he keeps the code etc etc etc...all fair enough, a decision would have been made based on what he said...he changed the conditions of engagement in not only the price but also the code ownership. If it was a situation where he was simply caught out then he should have just come clean and offered a full refund saying he wasn't able to do it however he hasn't and in fact made the situation worse by extortion.
Again I ask for either a full refund or the product delivered as per the requirements and code ownership is retained by me...and then this matter can come to a close
Again I ask for either a full refund or the product delivered as per the requirements and code ownership is retained by me...and then this matter can come to a close
Adam Howard
Well-known member
France has extortion laws too
Dodgeboard
Well-known member
Here is the problem both of you face: C O N T R A C T
There should have been a clear contract between you two that clearly spelled out, prior to any agreement, who owned the code on the completed project. There wasn't. That's the meat of it. Don't you ever watch Judge Judy or Peoples Court?
Both of you are to blame for this and I'm betting both of you learned a lesson here. Going forward, I'll bet you drill this point into your business partner by way of CONTRACT next time.
Now, you both need to come back together, amicably, and work this out. Be prepared to give a little on both ends. You both screwed up. Getter Done!!
If I was Judge Marilyn, I'd say "This is the time where we administer a little rough justice....iBaker needs to fork out another $100 for the added work and code ownership, and Waindigo DOES NOT own the rights to the code." (gable bang)
There should have been a clear contract between you two that clearly spelled out, prior to any agreement, who owned the code on the completed project. There wasn't. That's the meat of it. Don't you ever watch Judge Judy or Peoples Court?
Both of you are to blame for this and I'm betting both of you learned a lesson here. Going forward, I'll bet you drill this point into your business partner by way of CONTRACT next time.
Now, you both need to come back together, amicably, and work this out. Be prepared to give a little on both ends. You both screwed up. Getter Done!!
If I was Judge Marilyn, I'd say "This is the time where we administer a little rough justice....iBaker needs to fork out another $100 for the added work and code ownership, and Waindigo DOES NOT own the rights to the code." (gable bang)
Cory Booth
Well-known member
Hmmmm.... I have a mod in development with Waindigo...
But I will say - I have NEVER had a problem with xfrocks and he has made four modifications for me.
But I will say - I have NEVER had a problem with xfrocks and he has made four modifications for me.
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