Test xenForo with mybb Import

[soeren]

Hey There

i want to test xenForo with mybb Migration. I can request the 7 day demo account, but the mybb importer is not in the admin panel. I have to download it, but i have no account to get to the download... what can i do?

 

[Chris D]

My point is, if the admin has the credentials to import to, then there should be minimal onboarding requirements. IF there is additional "hand-holding" required, then additional charges may be incurred.
Exactly HOW hard is it to tell your cloud customers the username/password of the DB?

You think the onboarding requirements are as simple as providing a username and password for a database? That's not at all the case and I know you have enough technical knowledge about how XenForo and the importers to work to the point that I feel you're being disingenuous here.

There is a significant amount of work involved in just getting the customer's database and their files onto the server in the first place. There are typically access issues that need to be resolved, particularly on the customer's side. We've dealt with customers who need to transfer over 100s of GB of data and files to us for us to facilitate the installation. Funnily enough it takes a lot of preparation, planning and knowledge to transfer that amount of data in the least amount of time possible. Aside from that, we often have to provision additional storage above and beyond what is provided as part of the package so that we can store two copies of the data while it is being imported.

As @Slavik pointed out, there IS a notice in the cloud subscription about onboarding... and since I don't (and won't) use the XF cloud, I was not familiar with it. Since there IS that notice, then I have no great issue.

Perhaps your attitude to such things could be kept within a more reasonable and professional tone until you have all of the facts, rather than just outrageously calling a perfectly reasonable business practice "********", in future?

 

[soeren]

this is getting weird here

i ve asked my question before buying here, and everyone told me: no prob, just buy, then download and import the migration addon, it´s well tested

so my company bought... i ve logged in and hell yea, there is nothing to download! it´s still not the problem about the 240 bucks, the problem is: i´ve asked here before.

xenforo lost a new customer, if you/they can life with that, i am fine and we get an other solution for our needs.

 

[Chris D]

We answered the question correctly, but the answer only applied to the self-hosted version of the software. If you had expressed interest in XenForo Cloud before today, a different answer would have been given.

We don't want to lose you as a customer and there are ways forward if you're still interested in XenForo.

XenForo Cloud is a good option if you're no longer interested in managing the underlying server hardware and software for your forum, then we can do that with the software already priced in but due to the amount of work involved, there's an additional fee of $240 for us to import your existing forum to our service.

If you're comfortable with managing your own server, and performing the import yourself, then purchasing a self-hosted license may be a better solution.

 

[soeren]

We answered the question correctly, but the answer only applied to the self-hosted version of the software. If you had expressed interest in XenForo Cloud before today, a different answer would have been given.

We don't want to lose you as a customer and there are ways forward if you're still interested in XenForo.

XenForo Cloud is a good option if you're no longer interested in managing the underlying server hardware and software for your forum, then we can do that with the software already priced in but due to the amount of work involved, there's an additional fee of $240 for us to import your existing forum to our service.

If you're comfortable with managing your own server, and performing the import yourself, then purchasing a self-hosted license may be a better solution.

i ve asked:


the demo account is always your cloud service i ve never asked for on prem

okay, i have to talk to my colleagues what we would do now...

 

[Chris D]

The demo system has existed long before our Cloud service was a thing.

I can see why you may correlate the two, but the demo system doesn't actually exist on our Cloud service. It's always been there as a way for people to demo the software and make a decision before purchasing, traditionally, the self-hosted license for the software.

So ultimately a bit of a misunderstanding overall and I apologise for it, but hopefully the situation is clearer now and you now have enough information to decide what to do next.

Please let us know if you're unclear about anything or have any questions.

 

[TPerry]

The pricing has recently been fixed so that it will depend on the cloud plan

Suggestion.. since it is a FIXED amount.. detail it in your documentation instead of calling it a "small one-off fee" amount. That way, future clients know exactly what they are looking at. What YOU may consider a "small" fee may not equate to what others would consider a "small" fee. You have access to the site, and can easily change that amount if it increases/decreases in the future.

 

[Arantor]

At the point the fee is paid I don't think they do have access, I think that's the point, is that it's a fixed fee so that for some it's unfortunately over what it actually costs but for others it's a bargain due to time involved.

The alternative is to figure out a time and materials costing and how long it actually takes of someone's time to do an import. Chances are... it's actually more than $240 worth of a developer's time to do a typical import. Would be if you came to the company I work for, because it'd be me doing it and the whole thing would have to be done such that no more than two hours of my time in total was taken. (Even if the actual operation took much longer, chances are I wouldn't be sitting watching it like a hawk)

In my professional life... no migration of any size was ever only 2 hours of my actual time.

 

[TPerry]

In my professional life... no migration of any size was ever only 2 hours of my actual time.

And honestly.. when I actually charge folks (which is almost never), 2 hours of labor would be WELL more than that...
but my point is, if they have a fixed rate, they need to denote that amount instead of the "a small one-off fee". They apparently (for whatever reason) have decided that is a valid median amount - although, to me it should honestly be an hourly rate (estimated with final amount given once done) and that estimate provided to the client.

 

[Arantor]

Denoting the amount is fair - but getting all rowdy and swearing about it... not so much.

Should it be an hourly rate? I tend to disagree - if clients were shown the actual cost up front, I rather suspect they'd be less inclined to go on board with it, hence XF has picked a number that they're comfortable with, and are presumably willing to swallow some up front loss on to get the customer on board.

 

[Paul B]

In many cases, estimates are just that and rarely translate into reality.
Just a few examples.

I did an XF2 migration last week which had a locked down server so I couldn't rsync. That required creating a new key on the customer's server, adding it to ours and pushing the content from their server to ours. The amount of data involved required several hours to complete (I can of course do other things while waiting but it still needs to be monitored).

I did an XF1 migration earlier this week which should have taken no more than a couple of hours but due to firewall, SSH, and other issues took almost 6 hours.

I have an SMF import booked for Monday which has no SSH access so I will have to make backups and dumps using cPanel (and we all know how that frequently goes wrong), then wget the files or download and upload them via FTP. The opportunities for failure are way higher than using rsync and I won't know if the dump is viable until I import and test it.

There are arguments for and against fixed prices, in favour of both parties.

 

[TPerry]

There are arguments for and against fixed prices, in favour of both parties.

Well, is or is not the price fixed?
If it's fixed, then simply detail that amount. If it's not, provide an hourly amount charge with an estimated average time of importation so the possible licensee can budget for it.
As for migrations... it's easy to show the one-off's that have issues... but you have to look at the average. With as many folks as using cPanel as there is, I would have assumed (bad word I know) that there was the ability to use a cPanel backup to import from?

 

[Arantor]

With as many folks as using cPanel as there is, I would have assumed (bad word I know) that there was the ability to use a cPanel backup to import from?

Spoken like someone who's never had to recover from broken cPanel backups, which happen more than you'd think.

I'm seeing more and more hosts beginning to integrate Acronis Backup via WHM to get around this issue.

 

[Chris D]

Suggestion.. since it is a FIXED amount.. detail it in your documentation instead of calling it a "small one-off fee" amount. That way, future clients know exactly what they are looking at. What YOU may consider a "small" fee may not equate to what others would consider a "small" fee. You have access to the site, and can easily change that amount if it increases/decreases in the future.

Longer term, the plan is to absolutely have a fixed price menu for import and migration costs, perhaps even being able to purchase them at the point of subscription, similar to installation/upgrade services for self-hosted customers.

For now, this is our current approach. We're open to the idea of tweaking the prices relative to how much it actually costs. We've been providing import/migration services for little over a year, doing several a week, on average. More experience and customer feedback will tell us if we have the pricing right and at that point we'll feel more comfortable publishing our fixed prices to the masses.

For now, the request is simple; get in touch and we'll give you the price. You have to speak to us anyway for us to explain how it works and for us to coordinate the service being completed.

In over 12 months we've had precisely zero complaints about our approach (aside from the slight miscommunication in this thread) from anyone who has taken the time to contact us to ask about import/migration so, while the suggestion is noted, things are currently fine as they are.

 

[TPerry]

Spoken like someone who's never had to recover from broken cPanel backups, which happen more than you'd think.

I'm seeing more and more hosts beginning to integrate Acronis Backup via WHM to get around this issue.

Oh, considering that I REFUSE to use ANY panel like that as I want more control, I don't doubt there are issues... same way that the same admins lacking knowledge continue to use phpMyAdmin to do their backups (and imports) with. I'll stick with my CLI dumps and then checking the dump after it's done for integrity and my CLI imports personally.
The simple fact is... there IS a process in place. Could it be a BETTER process. You betcha... but for years a cPanel back up has generally worked fine (and by far and away, cPanel is what most use from my experience).... and if it doesn't, a new one is easily created. In a conversion/move, a bad backup will be noticeable fairly quickly (or at least the ones I've been exposed to were).

 

[TPerry]

Longer term, the plan is to absolutely have a fixed price menu for import and migration costs, perhaps even being able to purchase them at the point of subscription, similar to installation/upgrade services for self-hosted customers.

In over 12 months we've had precisely zero complaints about our approach (aside from the slight miscommunication in this thread) from anyone who has taken the time to contact us to ask about import/migration so, while the suggestion is noted, things are currently fine as they are.

Honestly.. I personally would not have a fixed price... I'd have a base price and then a notice that if there are abnormal issues that crop up (as long as they are documented), that the importation could encompass additional fees.
That would be more equitable to XF, AND to the users. That way, they know that they are looking at a base of $xx, but if there are issues (which would be detailed) then it could increase by $yy per hour of work.
I don't expect ANYONE to work for free... and I've been fairly vocal on that here and elsewhere when I tell others that they can't simply look at the base cost of a cloud solution and compare it to a licensed script on a VPS or shared hosting, as there ARE additional costs that are incurred in administration of the server, whether it's done by them or others.
Time IS money, even if one does it as a "hobby" and to do an equitable comparison, one has to take that server admin time into consideration. My issue is the client should know what to expect in general nature on expenditures.