Service providers - Clients who walk out on jobs

[stilly]

Appreciate that. It would work both ways though. If you had good reputation on the forum community, such as the people who have posted in this thread so far, it wouldn't be necessary. Just for the ones who come and go, who I cannot verify as active participants in the community. But then would it be singling people out and make them feel uncomfortable? Definitely an art to it.

Often times this is not an option. Did a website for a football site, guy just completely backed out and gave me no opportunity to make adjustments (and made sure to let me finish the project before telling me). Im stuck with a site with gator skins on it, unique logos as node icons, specific customization that most people really wouldn't care much for as it was too specific. I used to do this in the past, but with the amount of customization I often do, it just doesn't make much sense to sell the work. I'd have to find someone in the exact same niche.

PM me, I may be interested in the gators style, born and raised one, as loyal as they come, to a fault, lol, but tnite *takes deep breath* go Noles, cant believe I said that out loud, lol,

 

[craigiri]

I had a client walk years ago and left me with two domain names.....he didn't renew them despite the fact that I told him to......

So I did....and sold them for about $3K.
I guess I collected on his $150 bill....

 

[Carlos]

So I did....and sold them for about $3K.
I guess I collected on his $150 bill....

Whoa. Niiiiiiiice job, man! Seriously, brilliant.

 

[Bryan Gilchrist]

If anything, I would suggest that you amend your contract to state that you own the skin until they have paid the complete invoice, and if they don't you have full rights to sell said skin to make up for any money you lost (if it's not in there already).

I was working on a contracted project once, and the guy kept changing things over and over again, things that were outside of the scope of the contract. Then he wanted to sue us because we were "taking too long". His lawyer (who I happened to know through a friend) laughed at him.

 

[xIsabel38]

See, I'm in the exact same boat you are in yet on the opposite end. I've had issues with Developers before (not all mind you, but some) not fulfilling their end. There's one here on XenForo that I've given a 50% upfront payment to and received nothing so far, almost a month later. Not even a simple Screenshot as I requested a few weeks ago.

Then there's others that perform work, I pay them in full, and then the work I get is not what I need or not how I want it done and there are issues or problems with the work they performed that they then don't fix, yet did they give me a partial refund? Of course not. If you can't do everything I asked you to do and you leave what you have done as a mess, then I would expect you to initiate a partial refund on your own.

I can understand your frustration at clients as mine is becoming the same for developers.

As for your questions about charging 50% upfront or 100% upfront. To me, it all depends on who is doing it. If I was getting an Add-on created by someone that has a lot of high quality mods here and is quite reputable then this would be okay with me. But for others, no, I'm not doing 100%. In fact, if I don't know them, I'm getting to the stage of not even doing 50% as this is getting quite ridiculous.

A good example is just recently I hired @Haswell to fix some of my forum bugs. I don't know him so I didn't pay anything upfront and he was okay with that. He fixed most of my bugs so far so I have given him his requested payment plus a little extra. This is a good scenario. Unfortunately, not all scenarios work out this way.

Oh and I'm also getting quite annoyed with people ignoring you. I send custom requests to developers here via PM as it seems that is the quickest way to reach them but then the ones that don't answer you yet are active all over the forum... wtf! If you're not interested say so. But ignoring me really makes me mad.

Argh... rant. I feel you @Audentio. Sometimes we just need to let lose. PS- I actually sent you a work request via your site.

 

[EQnoble]

In my opinion there is a great overlapping of understanding, expectation, misconception and assumed comprehension over the ideas and ideals of guarantees, promissory communication, work ethic, faith, honor, respect and dignity and specifically how they apply when talking about tailoring for needs and wants that there ends up being not one person who is exactly on the same page as another.


Disclaimer: Naturally this has been a very broad and generalized statement with no real value towards the topic at hand or not pending it being groundhogs day.


As far as what would I do in the situation where someone walked out on an actual paid job (this happens in more places than the web actually and in different ways has happened to me directly and indirectly) or compromised it in a way where they are not willing to take responsibility for their own actions, it really depends on the exact parameters of engagement between the parties but for the most part if it is a case of irreconcilable differences ... I think divido termentum, divisius separatus, alius tempus, alius numerus and keep it moving on to people who are capable of having a mutual respect and what I loosely and generally would summarize as 'good peoples' or better.



Since this thread is out here and it also loosely applies to things I will just say this while I am reminded of it as Isabel brought up a point that is semi related to the whole thing..

Oh and I'm also getting quite annoyed with people ignoring you. I send custom requests to developers here via PM as it seems that is the quickest way to reach them but then the ones that don't answer you yet are active all over the forum... wtf! If you're not interested say so. But ignoring me really makes me mad.

I know you are not referring to me but all the same I know a few people who may feel something similar to that way about me at the current moment so instead of starting a whole bunch of convos or making a new thread for it I will just tag it on the end of this seeing that it is service related.


In the event that someone reading this thinks that I suddenly ignoring them allow me to air it out and sum up the current situation like this...


Time is precious
Times are tough
Time is money


While I have to time to help out with little things like regular expressions that get repeat use to help the incoming new board conversions or poking at someone's site when I get a minute to help fix a little thing here and there or make a post like this or whatever, I just don't have large blocks of time which I can afford to give freely anymore going crazy doing stuff on your sites because of my own personal needs at this point in time. So as cliche as it sounds..."it's me, not you" and I am sorry that this is what it is at the moment.

 

[Carlos]

A good example is just recently I hired @Haswell to fix some of my forum bugs. I don't know him so I didn't pay anything upfront and he was okay with that. He fixed most of my bugs so far so I have given him his requested payment plus a little extra. This is a good scenario. Unfortunately, not all scenarios work out this way.

Great story there. It's good to see some good people!

Oh and I'm also getting quite annoyed with people ignoring you. I send custom requests to developers here via PM as it seems that is the quickest way to reach them but then the ones that don't answer you yet are active all over the forum... wtf! If you're not interested say so. But ignoring me really makes me mad.

Amen!

 

[ManagerJosh]

Hey all! Hope you have time for a rant.

Never had a problem with this at XenForo.com until recently, but a few times now I've had people ask for refunds or just walk away from a project when I'm done or near finishing. And subsequently, do not receive the second payment on a finished product. Even though I will message them saying I will fix whatever issues they have with the product, they still just walk away and generally ignore all messages. So I've been thinking of ways to cover myself.

So I'm asking service providers, do you ask for full payment from first-time clients? Do you think this is acceptable?

And everyone else, would you be comfortable paying 100% upfront for the first job? Or using escrow services? Builds trust on both sides, but clearly you, the one paying for the service, would have to put up first and thus take on greater risk.

Most people do not have a problem paying 50% down, which is what I normally ask, though many ask to pay after the job is done. When I did this, people would be even more inclined to just walk away from projects because regardless of whether or not they liked the work or not they didn't want to pay. Eyes bigger than the stomach as they say perhaps. I can name three or four people here on XenForo who have done this to me. I don't intend to complain. And I stand by my work and if someone ever took issue with my work I'd be happy to fix whatever issues came up within/related to my skill sets and the job description of the project.

And to continue on, if I do a bad job generally people publicize it. Thankfully I've worked with amazing people who, if something comes up, generally understand my point of view and I always work hard to ensure that they are taken care of as best I can before parting ways. But if someone does me wrong, I look unprofessional for bringing their name up. Don't get me wrong, I would never do that, as I would agree it is unprofessional.

In summary, my reputation is all I have to go on. I'm hoping it is enough to stop some of this from happening. This is my bread and butter, and if this continues, I don't know what I'll do.

Thanks!

The question is always one of contract and what the contractual obligations are. I would think writing a cancellation clause and setting the terms within it would be something worth defining over.

 

[ExpertPixels.com]

I will weigh in on this....

Firstly i have 10+ years online exp !! (That should could for some credibility right ?.. well i would think so and considering you wont hear a bad word against me)....

Of late, Ive been inactive due to health issues and also weighing up if this online stuff is really a real job / going to pay my bills consistently. Anyhow my quality of work is second to none!! (I don't love myself or have tickets on myself either !!).. But as i am resuming from a break ive take on a few jobs and done nothing but what the client wanted plus gone above and beyond to make improvements to that even... Now... These clients have been horrible of late.. refusing to make payment or making excuses as to why the will have to make payments much later than agreed upon in the first place.

I spend 2-3 weeks solid and i mean solid.. Customizing / re-building this "Get Paid To Click Script" now... I originally got told it was simply to install the script / create a new design and that was all it was.. so i quoted $300 and and assigned a full 7 days to this task.. the script was that outdated it had no SEO juice / power whatso ever so i re-wrote 20+ templates to make it HTML5 valid (as valid as html5 was at the time)... Long story short I went above and beyond what any other front-end dev would have done !! and ended up spending 3 solid weeks doing this as i wanted to use it in a custom design portfolio to showcase my overall skill skill set !!

The site has now been taken down (I did advise this person that Paid to Click scripts don't really make the end-users money) and it was clear he was not to listen so i put my head down and did the work like you wouldn't believe it came up a awesome design.. much more functional then when he first set it live using his old template system...

I offered a very heavily discount as i needed to fill a new "Custom Portfolio" and to this day I not only wasted a lot of time / money and even more time adding extra features / .js scripts to extend the functionality of the limited script.. Would of been a great piece in a showcase / case study to show what i was able to do to a average script... And now it's offline.. and Not one bit of credit goes back to me...

SADLY !!! I take other peoples projects on like they are my own, I optimize them to be as SEO friendly as posible, Use very strict standards and it seems that no one these customers could actually give a **** about the extra yards / lengths i go to to ensure my customers best chance of succsess for their project... After all this i still can not rip anyone off / rip any clients off.. I can't even try to take any shortcuts when i could actually get away with it !!!

Anyways anyone readings this that may have some paid work in the future i would love to put my hand up for this... I really do go above and beyond what some people will do (Not everyone, but most people these days are happy to rip people off !! I am the polar opposite when it comes to this kind of thing and usually under-quote / provide a quote in the clients favor !!!

I mst say this tho: When you get a Client / Customers that evaluates your standard of work and can easily see that you have really dug deep and really looked after them... The acknowledgment you receive can sometimes make you realize that not everyone is out to get rock bottom prices for premium services.. which does make it easier to come back time and time again to continue doing what i love... I only ask to get paid for the quality of work i supply / the on-going support offered and my ability to really deliver exactly what the client wants.. and if i can make a few changes that will improve the clients project esthetically or improve the core coding standards to give the customer the best chance of success makes it easier to sleep at night.

Regards, Darren

 

[HWS]

In our business we charge the unknown customer upfront as the work progresses.

For example:
Customer pays 50% upfront and we do 50% of the work.
Then the customer pays the other 50% and we do the other 50% of the work.
It is easy and understandable.

Of course we also make special agreements with known customers.

 

[ExpertPixels.com]

In our business we charge the unknown customer upfront as the work progresses.

For example:
Customer pays 50% upfront and we do 50% of the work.
Then the customer pays the other 50% and we do the other 50% of the work.
It is easy and understandable.

Of course we also make special agreements with known customers.

Most my customers have made similar offers tho, Ive said no that's not necessary and given them the benefit of the doubt !!! but from here on in i will have to do something like this to protect myself, It is hard when this online stuff is my only source of income and i have to refund a custom in full because they simply change their mind.

Darren

 

[Alpha1]

I frequently hire developers for other software and have had PSD to html programmers and developers run with the money or just not being able to produce reasonable quality. Its hard to find trustworthy & quality developers. I swear by milestones and escrow. However, once trust is established its another matter.

Reputation in a community like xenforo.com is extremely powerful. It should be further enhanced IMHO because it will have a very positive effect on the addon community.

Normally that would never be an option.

However, knowing your reputation, work ethic and ability, I would have no such issue in your case.

This is exactly why it would be great to have a developer reputation system, similar to itrader and freelancer.com

 

[Paul B]

That has been discussed internally.

 

[Alpha1]

That has been discussed internally.

That's good to read.

 

[ExpertPixels.com]

I frequently hire developers for other software and have had PSD to html programmers and developers run with the money or just not being able to produce reasonable quality. Its hard to find trustworthy & quality developers. I swear by milestones and escrow. However, once trust is established its another matter.

Reputation in a community like xenforo.com is extremely powerful. It should be further enhanced IMHO because it will have a very positive effect on the addon community.


This is exactly why it would be great to have a developer reputation system, similar to itrader and freelancer.com

Hey on your "Feedback" type system / addon for areas such as custom work / development / and more front-end type jobs, we are actually working on a small addon such as this.. It's not anything close to a full blown iTrader system but will be enough to provide potential customers (people considering hiring someone for a small job).. we are a few weeks away from A using it ourselfs on Expertpixels.com and B releasing it here for free provided there are no major bugs.

 

[Eoj Nawoh]

Honestly, I can relate. Awhile back I made a bunch of custom graphics for a site, I provided drafts and examples, they enjoyed them.

They paid for them, included some information about me/ways to contact me and then when they requested some more work from me (ridiculous time table/price ex: $10 for 50 images in a week) and I said it couldn't be done. They revoked the previous payment, removed all references to me/my name and banned my IP from the site. (Which I was able to get around anyway).

I wish there was a way to protect designers and at the end of the day, it all falls on to the people you deal with. I definitely am more cautious with most of my work, and I generally like working for repeat customers/those with a nice reputation.

And to add one, those that use the XF Underground and Pirated addons, I personally do not do work for, regardless of payment. I had a user approach me and ask for some custom logos/avatars and etc, but as soon as I saw pirated XF addons I got out of there. Doesn't matter if he would have paid me or not, it's not the sort of person I want to work with.


On a different note,

What about forum members who illegally download music, games and software?
Should we also deal with those?
Why should we limit it to just XenForo add-on and style developers?

You'll never take me alive!

 

[Mike Edge]

If it is something that does not require a proof of concept, I require 100% up front.. I'm just simply too busy to deal with getting burned or tracking someone down for weeks for payment. If the job has a proof of concept, I require 60% up front and the remaining 40% at the proof of concept before I finish.. tweek final things and give access to it.

 

[Dan]

I require 100% up front..

I wish we would have done this will all our clients and custom jobs

 

[xIsabel38]

If it is something that does not require a proof of concept, I require 100% up front.. I'm just simply too busy to deal with getting burned or tracking someone down for weeks for payment. If the job has a proof of concept, I require 60% up front and the remaining 40% at the proof of concept before I finish.. tweek final things and give access to it.

See in some of cases it is Client problems and in others it is Developer problem. I think we've shown it definitely goes both ways here. I can't do a 100% upfront payment unless under very specific circumstances ie... I know the person or have worked with the person before or they have an exceptional reputation with me. And note that with me means different than just having a well known reputation, what I mean is we actually have a good relationship together.

A developer that asks me for 100% is basically telling me that they want me to take the full risk in our "working relationship" as they don't trust me. It's understandable but also insulting if you think about it. You don't trust me but I'm supposed to just suddenly trust you? I'm currently in the process of filing my first ever payment dispute on Paypal for a job I hired someone for here on XenForo. It's not fun at all and quite a bad experience.

In the end, I'm just looking for that one developer here that I can actually work with and trust over multiple jobs.

 

[=MGN=RedEagle]

Hey all! Hope you have time for a rant.

Never had a problem with this at XenForo.com until recently, but a few times now I've had people ask for refunds or just walk away from a project when I'm done or near finishing. And subsequently, do not receive the second payment on a finished product. Even though I will message them saying I will fix whatever issues they have with the product, they still just walk away and generally ignore all messages. So I've been thinking of ways to cover myself.

So I'm asking service providers, do you ask for full payment from first-time clients? Do you think this is acceptable?

And everyone else, would you be comfortable paying 100% upfront for the first job? Or using escrow services? Builds trust on both sides, but clearly you, the one paying for the service, would have to put up first and thus take on greater risk.

Most people do not have a problem paying 50% down, which is what I normally ask, though many ask to pay after the job is done. When I did this, people would be even more inclined to just walk away from projects because regardless of whether or not they liked the work or not they didn't want to pay. Eyes bigger than the stomach as they say perhaps. I can name three or four people here on XenForo who have done this to me. I don't intend to complain. And I stand by my work and if someone ever took issue with my work I'd be happy to fix whatever issues came up within/related to my skill sets and the job description of the project.

And to continue on, if I do a bad job generally people publicize it. Thankfully I've worked with amazing people who, if something comes up, generally understand my point of view and I always work hard to ensure that they are taken care of as best I can before parting ways. But if someone does me wrong, I look unprofessional for bringing their name up. Don't get me wrong, I would never do that, as I would agree it is unprofessional.

In summary, my reputation is all I have to go on. I'm hoping it is enough to stop some of this from happening. This is my bread and butter, and if this continues, I don't know what I'll do.

Thanks!

Don't take 100% pay before you are done but ALWAYS take pay before you work. So once you are in the last quarter, take 100% of the pay.

I work in the Christian niche where everyone is suppose to be nice and i have learnt the hard way... take pay upfront or it will ruin relationships as it tempts people to take what they got and run without pay.