RM 1.0 Resource Manager Feedback and Thoughts

[Mike]

There has been a considerable amount of discussion and comments on the Resource Manager since it has been implemented... not all of which has been positive. However, I do want to mention that it is still early days and what you're seeing borders on the "minimum viable product" (MVP) concept and will be improved. You can't develop a product solely in a vacuum -- you need to see how it works when people use it and that's when you discover things that need to be changed.

We have taken a lot of feedback on board, and there are various features that we're looking at. Some of these include:

• Purchase support for resources (both for a "single owner" like a shop and "app store" style)
• Custom resource fields (by category, ideally)
• Category hierarchy
• Review support for ratings
• Better limits on who can rate
• And some others

Conversely, there are some suggestions that we don't necessarily agree with and some considerations that need to be taken into account that might not be immediately obvious. I want to cover some of these suggestions to let you know what we think and to try to foster some in-depth discussion. I feel that a lot of the initial thoughts that have been posted have not necessarily thought about other perspectives or what the purpose of X is.

The Resource Manager is a "general use" add-on

This means that despite it only being used on XenForo.com, it's designed to be used by other people with different requirements and desires. As such, when we implement something, we can't just hack in something specific for XF.com. It needs to be approached in a more generic way. Sometimes this way is obvious and most ideas can be spun into something more generic, but it always means more work -- the amount more is what varies, sometimes orders of magnitude more.

The category sidebar should be on the right to be consistent

I find this a slightly weird suggestion and one I don't really understand completely.

First, you'll note that the right sidebar you see on most pages contains less important information. In most cases, if it weren't there, you'd still be able to get around. The category sidebar is the primary navigation system within the resource manager, so it deserves a more prominent display. Most sites either use top- and/or left-based navigation system; I can't think of one with primary navigation in a right column.

Second, it's not actually inconsistent. There are various other places in XenForo that use left-column navigation: Help, the account pages, and automatic page node navigation.

The Resource Manager is a shop front for digital downloads / discussions in resources

(I'm aware of the irony of me calling it that when you can't sell individual items directly, but as we've repeatedly said, it's something we want, but wasn't part of the MVP.)

The talk about whether discussions should be in resources gets to the heart of what the purpose of the Resource Manager is. Foremost, the RM is designed to be a shop front for digital downloads - like Amazon (they do digital downloads ) and your pick of app stores. The primary purpose is to make it easier to discover resources and to keep up to date with them.

Going back to just using threads means that updates to resources are intermixed with general questions, so if you're running add-on X, you have to watch the thread if you want to be informed of updates, but then you're forced to wade through the other stuff to find updates. The RM solves that by allowing you to watch a resource and be notified whenever it's updated, not when there's a comment. Always keep in mind that there are a large number of people that don't post in the add-on threads at all; they just use them. (The same way we have plenty of customers that never post here and probably haven't even registered and have never had "human" contact with us.)

So, this leads me into a few philosophical sounding questions...

In the context of resources, what are discussions? Is it saying that you love it or it worked well (or you hate it)? The reviews system (which would display within a resource) seems to handle that. Is it saying thanks (or other form of appreciation)? The like system and possibly reviews can solve that, but regardless that doesn't make for compelling reading for most others.

So, then we have functionality questions, support, and suggestions. (Anything else I can't think of?) So if the thread is made up of that, what is the distinct value of including that in the resource? Keep in mind that you can always watch the thread if you're interested in more than just the resource (which a lot of people aren't). As a matter of fact, doesn't using the thread system make it easier to work with the comments on resources if you feel they're very important? They keep the visibility via new/recent threads, whereas they wouldn't be there if they were in the resource. There's also the question of whether it's actually worth it to implement all the additional functionality when we have a thread system, though that may vary on a case by case basis.

I do take that allowing the resource author to moderate their own thread would be cool.

Then, the next philosophical question, what is in a resource? Is it just keeping the layout? Is it showing when you view the resource from the list? I'm genuinely curious about this. In theory, we could make the resource threads not show up in what's new and only be discoverable via the resource system. You'd only get updates to them if you watched them. While that would appear to be "in" the resource (the technical implementation notwithstanding), but what's the benefit?

I am after some serious discussion on this, as I'm trying to understand the mindset -- the discussion just seems to pale in comparison to the importance of the resource (for people looking for resources), and the fact that I don't need to ever visit the resource itself to keep up with the discussion means that I don't see a disadvantage to the thread system.

Resources as a "forum" (multiple discussions)

I understand this idea, and it's not unreasonable as a general concept, though it isn't a priority based on what I mentioned earlier: the focus of the resource is on the resource and keeping up to date with it. It's also a big undertaking.

In terms of XF.com, there are some add-ons (in particular) that it'd be useful for, but there's nothing preventing authors from setting up their own areas that consist of more than one thread. People will have different approaches and desires with this, so I don't think they should necessarily be shoehorned into a particular approach. You might say that the thread is a particular approach, but the thread isn't required--we have locked one as the author requested support via his site--and there may be some changes to emphasize that down the line. I'm not sure yet.





I'm sure there are more things I'll come up with, but I think that's enough for now...

 

[Paul B]

As I said a week or so ago:

At this point I would say wait and see what comes next.

We were up until 0130 discussing some changes and Mike was up writing code until 0330.

The Resource Manager has undergone a major rewrite with some significant changes.

The fact that is has taken almost two weeks to implement those changes should indicate exactly how much has changed.

Don't assume also that the suggestions made have been ignored.

There is no point commenting on the current incarnation as it will soon be superseded, with yet further changes planned which will be implemented in due course.

 

[Morgain]

It appears like this was more a vent thread and there was never any intention to honestly include any of the given feedback, at least with the major suggestions.

Oh dear. That's very different to XF philosophy do far.
I hope it's not losing its way so soon.

 

[Morgain]

Don't assume also that the suggestions made have been ignored.

Fair point Brogan.
But I think it would be wise to indicate clearly that a suggestion is being considered. That doesn't mean it will be adopted but it does show suggestions are not ignored.

If suggestions - and especially serious discontent - floats out there with no response, it does give the impression of being ignored.

Two words of respect, from you or any other leading XF person "Good idea" would do it.

 

[Shelley]

1. no, watch thread does that. They should be watching it themselves, I read every post I see in my threads. Their own fault if they miss them.
2. agreed
3. agreed, at least something similar
4. there is a blog somewhere I believe, should be linked like 3 as well though
5. it is fine where it is, not everyone needs to discuss crap. Probably like 5% do.
6. suggestions like this have been made, it would be a big undertaking and I do think something better will come in the future. Currently devs should have their own sites to handle everything. What I would like is an API from XenForo.com so we can have people post on other sites with their XenForo account. Registration is another step people don't like making (again).

5. A persons resource and they're discussions are not crap, they may very well be in your eyes but the fact of the matter to use the RM your being asked to archive make posts and resources on your site redundant because using the RM will not allow for your existing content to be saved. who are you to say what's crap on our forums?

Now, you and many other people may not give two hoots about this because we have to fall inline with the "RM current method of thinking that posts should be separated" but for some of us to be asked to loose 90% of our content shows that "we don't care about your content~

And secondly, An rm that doesn't cater for multiple file uploads? what the hell can someone explain that one to me? how am I supposed to create and upload resources such as this that come in a variety of colours?http://xenforo.com/community/threads/xenforo-square-forum-status-icons.7837/

Again, legitimate concerns. And a resource manager that certainly doesn't cater for graphic packs.

 

[Jon W]

Then this should be automatic for the author dev. Crazy not.

I have to completely agree with this. I have missed out on people commenting on my add-on because I am not automatically set to watch. I know I should know better, but this is a bit ridiculous and I hope it is not the same in whatever incarnation is to come.

There is no point commenting on the current incarnation as it will soon be superseded, with yet further changes planned which will be implemented in due course.

Sorry. Morgain made me! Looking forward to what is to come...

 

[ragtek]

Resource Manager has undergone a major rewrite with some significant changes.

The fact that is has taken almost two weeks to implement those changes should indicate exactly how much has changed.
.

That's why IMO earlier presentations and more "discussions between the team and the customers" would be better... => You wouldn't need to change so much of the already done work ( = wasted time)
It's the same with xf...
After most of the have you seen videos, kier and mike got our feedback and changed several things...
Why not present & discuss the ideas earlier, get the feedback and then start coding?
I'm aware that even this would't make everybody happy, BUT wouldn't this save time and frustrations?



(I know, i've posted the same post some months ago... bla bla...)
*scnr*

 

[Robbo]

5. A persons resource and they're discussions are not crap, they may very well be in your eyes but the fact of the matter to use the RM your being asked to archive make posts and resources on your site redundant because using the RM will not allow for your existing content to be saved. who are you to say what's crap on our forums?

Sorry, that is just Aussie slang. Everything is "crap". I meant it as a general term... same as "stuff".

Also don't think that this does everything I want. I have seen a massive drop in sales to the point where I have to do more client work due to the RM not supporting paid products. Updates to my add-ons and adding existing ones is basically on the back burner now (except for a couple things) due to it being a waste of my time causing me to go into more debt. I approach the team before the RM was on here to at least be able to hack it to change the download button to a buy button linking to where we want but they won't do it.

 

[Robbo]

Then this should be automatic for the author dev. Crazy not.

There is an option for that.

What exactly is crap about separating Installation support from General support for how the addon works? Neither of those are "crap" and it helps both dev and users to separate the topics. The dev can then easily find a post to give a link instead of redoing support. They are less likely to get repeat requests if the threads are shorter and better focused.

See above post, just miss-communication on my part. I'll keep it in mind in future.

 

[Paul B]

I approach the team before the RM was on here to at least be able to hack it to change the download button to a buy button linking to where we want but they won't do it.

Mike has already stated that purchasing paid add-ons is planned.

Purchase support for resources (both for a "single owner" like a shop and "app store" style)

 

[Shelley]

Sorry, that is just Aussie slang. Everything is "crap". I meant it as a general term... same as "stuff".

Also don't think that this does everything I want. I have seen a massive drop in sales to the point where I have to do more client work due to the RM not supporting paid products. Updates to my add-ons and adding existing ones is basically on the back burner now (except for a couple things) due to it being a waste of my time causing me to go into more debt. I approach the team before the RM was on here to at least be able to hack it to change the download button to a buy button linking to where we want but they won't do it.

Ah apologies Robbo. Fact of the matter we are going to loose posts, resources.

I never did expect the rm to do everything I wanted, i expected parts of it that didn't compliment the resources I provide. What I never expected was that to use the RM I would loose all my resources, my posts associated to those resources because the RM doesn't allow this. This for me is the major sticking point, that your loosing content that quite frankly nobody really wants to discuss and try to work around.

I'm surprised nobody or more people haven't realised that their content resources posts are basically redundant if you want to use the RM which I very much would like to use.

 

[Robbo]

Mike has already stated that purchasing paid add-ons is planned.

I know, was just whinging. I still think a hacky solution could have been in place, it has basically taken my sales down by around about 95% because people don't check the forum for paid add-ons. Which means I have to turn my focus away from XenForo add-ons otherwise I'll disappear because of bills not paid. I hope the big update has something but I'm not expecting anything. As long as their focus doesn't turn away from the RM before this is done I am happy.

Ah apologies Robbo. Fact of the matter we are going to loose posts, resources.

I never did expect the rm to do everything I wanted, i expected parts of it that didn't compliment the resources I provide. What I never expected was that to use the RM I would loose all my resources, my posts associated to those resources because the RM doesn't allow this. This for me is the major sticking point, that your loosing content that quite frankly nobody really wants to discuss and try to work around.

I'm surprised nobody or more people haven't realised that their content resources posts are basically redundant if you want to use the RM which I very much would like to use.

I have just settled with it being an early version that has a small amount of what is planned done. It's what my first betas are when I release them, I need that feedback from the first few buyers.

 

[Shelley]

I know, was just whinging. I still think a hacky solution could have been in place, it has basically taken my sales down by around about 95% because people don't check the forum for paid add-ons. Which means I have to turn my focus away from XenForo add-ons otherwise I'll disappear because of bills not paid. I hope the big update has something but I'm not expecting anything. As long as their focus doesn't turn away from the RM before this is done I am happy.


I have just settled with it being an early version that has a small amount of what is planned done. It's what my first betas are when I release them, I need that feedback from the first few buyers.

I could buy into the fact that it's an early version and that discussion integrated into releases would eventually come so I'll post my concerns what I wrote on adminextra that really tells us our content wont be saved amongst other things and paste it below. Anyone that can't see the concerns below either just doesn't care, or merely overlooking the fact and in denial.

it may not make sense in the opening sentence as it was a response to another member on another forum.

The concerns are primarily about the structure not features and the to-do list your speaking of his pure speculation and not fact and from hat I got told some of the features are not on the to-do list.

Q: If I use the resource manager will my existing resources and posts they are tied to be lost?

A: Yes, you'll loose all your existing resources and posts and you'll have to hope your members re-post those resources on your site.


Q: Surely they will eventually tie in discussions with resource releases so we don't loose anything?

A: No. The area underneath the release area will be taken up by the upcoming comment ratings feature which eliminates my thinking it will be introduced later


Q: I'll be able to use the comment ratings feature as a discussion area?

A: No. The comment ratings will not be an editor and posts will be for commenting on resource with a text count limit plus you'll only be able to use the comment ratings once per release


To me, this isn't asking to much of the developers this is me wanting to retain my existing content. If adminextra were to use the resource manager we would effectively loose all the content threads/posts in this area http://adminextra.com/forums/resources.75/

Not to mention the feature people are concerned about with regards to tieing in releases and discussions won't be happening from the tweet I got from mike Sullivan which I knew already since you mention it's probably on their to-do list, its not you will loose all your resources and posts tied to those resources.

Secondly it's not to much to ask for a clean look. Do you really want your discussion area looking like this with add-ons, graphic & style discussions looking, unorganized like this erratically sorted and hard to find http://xenforo.com/community/forums/resource-and-add-on-release-discussions.59/

I'm not bashing the devs, I just feel that asked to loose all your existing content if you want to use the rm you waited on for so long is asking to much.

 

[Mike]

I never did expect the rm to do everything I wanted, i expected parts of it that didn't compliment the resources I provide. What I never expected was that to use the RM I would loose all my resources, my posts associated to those resources because the RM doesn't allow this. This for me is the major sticking point, that your loosing content that quite frankly nobody really wants to discuss and try to work around.

I'm surprised nobody or more people haven't realised that their content resources posts are basically redundant if you want to use the RM which I very much would like to use.

Shelley, I discussed this a bit earlier when you brought it up: http://xenforo.com/community/threads/resource-manager-feedback-and-thoughts.26969/page-4#post-321512

Some of your examples here show exactly why it can't be automated. They're structured different, especially with threads just being free-form. As I said in that post, that's an entirely separate issue as an importer can only ever be tackled after the system is developed.

 

[Mike]

That's why IMO earlier presentations and more "discussions between the team and the customers" would be better... => You wouldn't need to change so much of the already done work ( = wasted time)
It's the same with xf...
After most of the have you seen videos, kier and mike got our feedback and changed several things...
Why not present & discuss the ideas earlier, get the feedback and then start coding?
I'm aware that even this would't make everybody happy, BUT wouldn't this save time and frustrations?



(I know, i've posted the same post some months ago... bla bla...)
*scnr*

Well you always have to see it in place, but none of it is really "changing work already done" or wasting time. Some things were planned before, but you really need to see things in place and see how they get used to see how to make things work better. It's generally just improvements.

 

[Shelley]

Shelley, I discussed this a bit earlier when you brought it up: http://xenforo.com/community/threads/resource-manager-feedback-and-thoughts.26969/page-4#post-321512

Some of your examples here show exactly why it can't be automated. They're structured different, especially with threads just being free-form. As I said in that post, that's an entirely separate issue as an importer can only ever be tackled after the system is developed.

Your a talented developer that is never going to be questioned. But that is not a solution to a problem people are facing and your only highlighting a minute issue I'm touching upon. The separated discussions (as you can see I highlighted many issues in this thread).

How will an importer allow our discussions to appear under releases, when rating comments will reside under releases?

And mike, I'm not telling you what do just a legitimate concern whether you believe it or not or even care about this problem for us resource providers that have resources that make up 90% of our content.

 

[Morgain]

Why cannot the existing resources threads at least be linked off the page?

A box under the discussion button could list:-

New Installations queries
General Support queries
Discussion (pre- 2012)
Suggestions

Then if each of those threads also had a similar link box at top and bottom of their pages like this:

RM: Name of addon // New Installations queries.
General Support queries // Discussion (pre- 2012) // Suggestions

this would let us all move about efficiently and valuable material wouldn't be lost.
A useful addition would be a dev ability to move particularly useful posts from the previous resource thread to the new ones.

Speaking as one who adores addons and customisation the RM is a complete demotivator.
It REALLY puts me off trying anything new. Apart from being able to search categories of resources - which I could do before via the different grouped forums - I honestly can't see what it achieves.
Maybe it has some functions the devs like? But they seem to be complaining too and about really substantial things.

We are risking losing a lot of the XF addon community with this.
I don't like the sound of 95% lost income, strong resentment that built up content has been trashed; and loss of connection with users. All uncomfortably ominous.
The team can't fix it all overnight but I think a clear statement of intent is needed to reassure everyone.
Plus some hacking on the existing system to put the worst things right, or at least better. I can't see that a few links on the RM pages and its resource discussion pages, plus a warning in the RM to devs in the setup to enable Watching - none of that seems mega to me.

I have missed out on people commenting on my add-on because I am not automatically set to watch. I know I should know better, but this is a bit ridiculous and I hope it is not the same in whatever incarnation is to come.

Can anyone enlighten me - when a dev starts using the RM do they get a prominent warning that they should check this setting? It doesn't sound like it.
I can't really see why it can't be set to default YES (notify) but if the thinking is the other way at least a dev should be warned that this vital lifeline between them and their users needs them to manually make it possible.

 

[Saeed]

I seem to have somehow missed on a lot of discussion on an add-on I am really looking forward to having on my site. I wonder how I missed this thread.

Firstly, thank you Mike, for gathering such useful feedback from everyone. This is exactly what I like about XenForo...the way our feedback matters to you.

May I give some feedback about the actual page that showcases a resource?

I think that you guys have improved the resources home a lot, and it seems to be growing on me. Though, I do not feel the same way about the way a particular resource shows once you open it.

Below is an example of the latest resource that I can see in the resource manager at the moment.

​

I'm not a designer or a coder, so I'm not sure how much what I say is possible or how much makes sense. But I'll try to explain what I expect when I open this page.

After spotting a resource of interest which I have never viewed before, the information most likely to stick in my mind is the title. I read the title...yes, I think it may be of use to me. And I open it, hopefully with an open mind, to see what it's all about.

Most of us start reading any page from the top left corner of the screen. Here I see a huge avatar of the uploader. Not useful...yes, it tells me who the uploader is, but I came here to see what the resource is all about, not the uploader.

Ok, moving on. Yes, I can see a description about the resource! Good. Reading the description...reading...yes, I think this resource may be useful on my site. It would really help if I could see a nice screenshot of it in action though...this one seems to be a bit too sandwiched in this space. Ok, let's click on it. Hmmm, good, me likes!

From what I understand, the information in the left most column (the avatar and the buttons related to the resource) is all related to the resource, isn't it? Perhaps we could shift it all to the right as well, so the first thing that we view is in continuity of what we were viewing on the page just before we opened this one...i.e. what the resource is about. Moving it to the right also gives us some vital space which could be added to the area that houses the description of the resource as well as the screenshots, making them feel a bit less congested. If someone is impressed by what he gathers from the description of a resource, only then is he going to download it. No need to worry that he won't find the download buttons. They are big, coloured...and well, he WILL find it.

Below is a proposed layout...a mock is perhaps what it is called, though I'm not sure. It's the first time I've tried making one.

​

Personally, I think it would look nice also if "Watch this resource" were a button as well, and the text of the buttons were perhaps something like:

Download this resource
Discuss this resource
Watch this resource

Also, does the avatar really need to be that big? I couldn't think of any way to accommodate a smaller version of it on the right that looks nice, but maybe you guys can.

I hope the above all makes some sense.

 

[Paul B]

That layout has already completely changed.

 

[Saeed]

That layout has already completely changed.

Oh. Ummm, well I based the above on what I can see on the site at the moment.

 

[Paul B]

I know, which is why I've posted a few times now: http://xenforo.com/community/threads/resource-manager-feedback-and-thoughts.26969/page-9#post-325200