RM 1.0 Resource Manager Feedback and Thoughts

[Mike]

There has been a considerable amount of discussion and comments on the Resource Manager since it has been implemented... not all of which has been positive. However, I do want to mention that it is still early days and what you're seeing borders on the "minimum viable product" (MVP) concept and will be improved. You can't develop a product solely in a vacuum -- you need to see how it works when people use it and that's when you discover things that need to be changed.

We have taken a lot of feedback on board, and there are various features that we're looking at. Some of these include:

• Purchase support for resources (both for a "single owner" like a shop and "app store" style)
• Custom resource fields (by category, ideally)
• Category hierarchy
• Review support for ratings
• Better limits on who can rate
• And some others

Conversely, there are some suggestions that we don't necessarily agree with and some considerations that need to be taken into account that might not be immediately obvious. I want to cover some of these suggestions to let you know what we think and to try to foster some in-depth discussion. I feel that a lot of the initial thoughts that have been posted have not necessarily thought about other perspectives or what the purpose of X is.

The Resource Manager is a "general use" add-on

This means that despite it only being used on XenForo.com, it's designed to be used by other people with different requirements and desires. As such, when we implement something, we can't just hack in something specific for XF.com. It needs to be approached in a more generic way. Sometimes this way is obvious and most ideas can be spun into something more generic, but it always means more work -- the amount more is what varies, sometimes orders of magnitude more.

The category sidebar should be on the right to be consistent

I find this a slightly weird suggestion and one I don't really understand completely.

First, you'll note that the right sidebar you see on most pages contains less important information. In most cases, if it weren't there, you'd still be able to get around. The category sidebar is the primary navigation system within the resource manager, so it deserves a more prominent display. Most sites either use top- and/or left-based navigation system; I can't think of one with primary navigation in a right column.

Second, it's not actually inconsistent. There are various other places in XenForo that use left-column navigation: Help, the account pages, and automatic page node navigation.

The Resource Manager is a shop front for digital downloads / discussions in resources

(I'm aware of the irony of me calling it that when you can't sell individual items directly, but as we've repeatedly said, it's something we want, but wasn't part of the MVP.)

The talk about whether discussions should be in resources gets to the heart of what the purpose of the Resource Manager is. Foremost, the RM is designed to be a shop front for digital downloads - like Amazon (they do digital downloads ) and your pick of app stores. The primary purpose is to make it easier to discover resources and to keep up to date with them.

Going back to just using threads means that updates to resources are intermixed with general questions, so if you're running add-on X, you have to watch the thread if you want to be informed of updates, but then you're forced to wade through the other stuff to find updates. The RM solves that by allowing you to watch a resource and be notified whenever it's updated, not when there's a comment. Always keep in mind that there are a large number of people that don't post in the add-on threads at all; they just use them. (The same way we have plenty of customers that never post here and probably haven't even registered and have never had "human" contact with us.)

So, this leads me into a few philosophical sounding questions...

In the context of resources, what are discussions? Is it saying that you love it or it worked well (or you hate it)? The reviews system (which would display within a resource) seems to handle that. Is it saying thanks (or other form of appreciation)? The like system and possibly reviews can solve that, but regardless that doesn't make for compelling reading for most others.

So, then we have functionality questions, support, and suggestions. (Anything else I can't think of?) So if the thread is made up of that, what is the distinct value of including that in the resource? Keep in mind that you can always watch the thread if you're interested in more than just the resource (which a lot of people aren't). As a matter of fact, doesn't using the thread system make it easier to work with the comments on resources if you feel they're very important? They keep the visibility via new/recent threads, whereas they wouldn't be there if they were in the resource. There's also the question of whether it's actually worth it to implement all the additional functionality when we have a thread system, though that may vary on a case by case basis.

I do take that allowing the resource author to moderate their own thread would be cool.

Then, the next philosophical question, what is in a resource? Is it just keeping the layout? Is it showing when you view the resource from the list? I'm genuinely curious about this. In theory, we could make the resource threads not show up in what's new and only be discoverable via the resource system. You'd only get updates to them if you watched them. While that would appear to be "in" the resource (the technical implementation notwithstanding), but what's the benefit?

I am after some serious discussion on this, as I'm trying to understand the mindset -- the discussion just seems to pale in comparison to the importance of the resource (for people looking for resources), and the fact that I don't need to ever visit the resource itself to keep up with the discussion means that I don't see a disadvantage to the thread system.

Resources as a "forum" (multiple discussions)

I understand this idea, and it's not unreasonable as a general concept, though it isn't a priority based on what I mentioned earlier: the focus of the resource is on the resource and keeping up to date with it. It's also a big undertaking.

In terms of XF.com, there are some add-ons (in particular) that it'd be useful for, but there's nothing preventing authors from setting up their own areas that consist of more than one thread. People will have different approaches and desires with this, so I don't think they should necessarily be shoehorned into a particular approach. You might say that the thread is a particular approach, but the thread isn't required--we have locked one as the author requested support via his site--and there may be some changes to emphasize that down the line. I'm not sure yet.





I'm sure there are more things I'll come up with, but I think that's enough for now...

 

[Paul B]

Now, for a scenario. What stops people from abusing the rating comment system and using this feature for asking support, asking for features for that release?

A limited number of characters for each review, only one review per member, no BB Code support so no images, etc.
Essentially just short plain text comments.

The alternative is no review/feedback rating system at all.

 

[Shelley]

About losing the old resources which exist in threads prior to the resource manager being made, and I think this was posted by someone else too, you can merge the old thread with the new RM thread after you post the resource. So you don't lose the old discussions. Yeah if you already have hundreds of resources existing in threads, it can be a bit painful, but it's a one time job.

And about people abusing the ratings comments system, what then is your alternative? Not have the reviews system at all? Surely there would be permissions and almost every successful resource site has a reviews/ratings system. Take a look at Joomla extensions for instance.

That is not a solution if your wanting to keep discussion posts/releases together as the Rm doesn't support this structure. what do you do then once the rm is installed? it's not even possible if the devs don't give those that want combine resource discussions/release combined (in the same area). Without the option the concerns and limitations still remain.

 

[Shelley]

A limited number of characters for each review, only one review per member, no BB Code support so no images, etc.
Essentially just short plain text comments.

The alternative is no review/feedback rating system at all.

I knew those specifications for the rating comments would be something I envisioned which confirms my post above to sadikb that the comment system for discussion isn't a solution to compensate for discussions/releases combined for people that want this structure. I did say.

 

[Sadik B]

Yes the devs have made a decision to separate discussions from resources. I too would like the discussions to remain below the resource. But they have clarified their thought process and why the decision was made. At this point it comes down to the fact that if someone is not happy with the functionality, they may not buy it. Personally for me the review comments system would suffice but I realize that for others it may not. In the end it is what it is. If the product doesn't satisfy the need of someone, they have a legitimate reason to not buy it.

Btw I totally think that once the RM would be out, it won't be long before we see an addon which allows for discussions below the resource.

 

[Shelley]

Yes the devs have made a decision to separate discussions from resources. I too would like the discussions to remain below the resource. But they have clarified their though process and why the decision was made. At this point it comes down to the fact that if someone is not happy with the functionality, they may not buy it. Personally for me the review comments system would suffice but I realize that for others it may not. In the end it is what it is. If the product doesn't satisfy the need of someone, they have a legitimate reason to not buy it.

Btw I totally think that once the RM would be out, it won't be long before we see an addon which allows for discussions below the resource.

That is what this area accommodates, or atleast I would like to think it does that either the developers are open to suggestions, giving users an option to switch between combined resource discussions/releases as indeed an option so we've got the option to use a product we've (I personally) been waiting for for a long time.

The old argument of Don't buy it would effectively eliminate alot of people and show that optional changes in the way of suggestions are not being listened to. This is what I expect from another product solution, not xenforo. There's alot of people that want the combined structure so interactivity (amongst other stuff) is retained this can't be ignored or sweeped under the rug so to speak.

 

[Sheldon]

I'm confused... when exactly have the developers not listened to the customers on feedback? Just because one of your suggestions is not being met, does not mean that haven't heard it. They listened, discussed it, made their choice. Why continue to beat a dead horse?

*and to add to that, from my experiences, xenForo has went above and beyond listening to customers.

 

[Shelley]

I'm confused... when exactly have the developers not listened to the customers on feedback? Just because one of your suggestions is not being met, does not mean that haven't heard it. They listened, discussed it, made their choice. Why continue to beat a dead horse?

*and to add to that, from my experiences, xenForo has went above and beyond listening to customers.

It was an example, never did say specifically the xenforo devs weren't listening.

 

[Sheldon]

This is what I expect from another product solution, not xenforo.

It was an example, never did say specifically the xenforo devs weren't listening.

Just how it reads to me.....

 

[Shelley]

Just how it reads to me.....

Basically it was responding to the "if it doesn't fit your needs don't buy" comment that if the xenforo devs developed this method of thinking it would imply that they don't want to listen and that I expect this from another company. Not that any of this implies to xenforo.

And you don't need tell me about the implementations Mike & kier have made in the past, they've had glowing posts from me for their efforts to the point I'm a "Fan" I just don't happen to agree with the structure of the RM and will post why I think it doesn't work and how it would effect sites without feeling pressured doing it. This is what the area accommodates. The concerns I have are very much legitimate.

 

[Morgain]

It would require a lot of additional code to get all the thread controller stuff to work on the RM page.
Regarding your other points, there is only one thread per resource so there's nothing else to link to.
Multiple threads per resource have been discussed (offline) but there are yet further technical issues related to that, so it wouldn't be a trivial matter.

Brogan thank you. It's good to have it explained.
Need a Like that you explained though I don't Like what you had to tell us.

 

[Razasharp]

Just some general feedback for the Resource Manager...

I'm not quite sure whether this is being released as a commercial product or it's just for use here on Xenforo.com? I'll provide feedback for both:

RM @ XF.com

Think it's great! Especially like how we can browse (meaningful) categories. I also like how the mod-scene is being embraced and incorporated here on XF and not pushed away to a different domain - definitely think that will pay dividends in the long run.

RM as a paid add-on

Sorry guys but I think this is a very bad idea - 90% of forum owners will not be interested in a resource manager add-on, and those that aren't will begrudge precious developer time being spent on it. Not just to support it, but maintain it and keep developing it to keep those that did buy it, happy.

I think it would be better to give it away as a free-add on, that way your time is dedicated to your core product and you only really need to develop or maintain it for your own use - far less pressure, and arguably more profitable use of your time (core product). Giving it away relieves pressure and expectations too (not to mention keeps users happy for getting something for free).

Just my two pence worth.

 

[dieketzer]

im not sure if it makes much sense, but ok.

Template and code modifications, along with CSS tips and guides don't really fit the RM, which is why those forums have not been archived and will carry on as before:
http://xenforo.com/community/forums/template-modifications.37/
http://xenforo.com/community/forums/code-modifications.50/

Of course that's just the policy which has been decided for here, anyone is free to use the RM for whichever purpose suits their needs on their own site.

 

[Sheldon]

im not sure if it makes much sense, but ok.

My only though would be RM have an actual file to download... The others are really FAQs. I assume once you add it to your own site, you could set it however you want.

 

[Ranger375]

I don't have any use for this on my site, but I would definitely use it as social groups if threads were incorporated in it, as well as privacy settings.

 

[RobParker]

Clicking watched resources, then the resource title, then the discussion link is quite inelegant. I understand separating them out but still think the discussion should be linked from a higher level rather than having to dig down. Hopefully that's something that's considered as I'd expect the discussion to gets 100s more visits/re-visits than the resource page itself.

 

[MilesDB]

Clicking watched resources, then the resource title, then the discussion link is quite inelegant. ....... I'd expect the discussion to gets 100s more visits/re-visits than the resource page itself.

Yep, it's inelegant. While searching forums one can easily stumble on the resource discussion thread and decide to download the resource. Unfortunately getting to the resource page might require several clicks.

Making the first post of the resource discussion page sticky by default on each subsequent page would help.

 

[Morgain]

I've now had a bit to do with the RM in operation through helping to support waindigo's Library (Articles) addon.

Sorry but it's not good. No fun. Not friendly. Not efficient.
As expected it's all about the hidden discussion and the navigation between it and the RM page.

When the developer posts an update via RM an automatic message appears in the discussion thread. It's uninformative and unhelpful. All it says is that the dev has posted an upgraded version.
Now in this case there were several different errors different users had found. waindigo immediately came to my call and fixed them in a 40 minute turnaround. Pretty good. But the message his upgrade generated didn't show us that. So we wre left floundering around trying to find our way to the right place to see what he'd done.
The really stupid thing is that he had carefully listed all the fixed items on the RM but this was not included in the post to the discussion thread. Apparently this was generated automatically and beyond the dev's control.
The dev should be able to highlight their text on the RM page for inclusion ion the discussion post.

Also the generated posts refer to "blogs" - wha?
We're sitting there on a forum discussion thread and it's going on about blogs? Where are these blogs? So I hunted around and found no blogs. I assume it means the discussion thread we were already on!

Worst of all apparently all the reports on the discussion thread about a series of small errors wre not reaching the dev!
If I hadn't been monitoring it, and emailed him privately there could have been a pack of problems building up without him even knowing about it. That would have made him look very bad.

IMPROVEMENTS TO RESOURCE MANAGER

1. Any message on the discussion should automatically notify the addon dev by email and by Alert. In fact they should get a Notice on their next visit, with a link to the thread; so the situation is unmissable.

2. The message automatically generated by an upgrade - or any other automatically generated message from the RM - should have a textfield for the dev to add notes.
The form should show its default content so the dev can see how to integrate notes intelligently.
Better it should also pre-fill with any text newly added to the RM page, for the dev to check and edit. Or vice versdea - what goes in the discussion message is added to the RM page for editing - so the dev doesn't have to do it twice.

3. The discussion thread should have a big notice top AND bottom of its pages, stating it is servicing the X addon, in the Resource Manager.

4. The references to blogs should go as they are confusing.
Or is there a blog somewhere invisible to me?

5. The discussion thread should be featured PROMINENTLY on the RM page - not hidden behind a button.
Under where the button is now I suggest a preview box with the last 10 posts, title and snippet.
It's been stated before that after the resource is accessed the main focus shifts to the discussion.

6. Ideally a dev should be able to add to the single default discussion. They could then have an Installation thread; a general Support thread; Suggestions thread; and Additions threads for extra addons sometimes made to enhance the original. The dev should be enabled to move posts between these threads.

The Resource Manager is clearly going to be a major pillar of XF. It's a fantastic project. I'm looking forward to seeing it made comfortable to use.

 

[Robbo]

1. no, watch thread does that. They should be watching it themselves, I read every post I see in my threads. Their own fault if they miss them.
2. agreed
3. agreed, at least something similar
4. there is a blog somewhere I believe, should be linked like 3 as well though
5. it is fine where it is, not everyone needs to discuss crap. Probably like 5% do.
6. suggestions like this have been made, it would be a big undertaking and I do think something better will come in the future. Currently devs should have their own sites to handle everything. What I would like is an API from XenForo.com so we can have people post on other sites with their XenForo account. Registration is another step people don't like making (again).

 

[Morgain]

1. no, watch thread does that. They should be watching it themselves, I read every post I see in my threads. Their own fault if they miss them.

Then this should be automatic for the author dev. Crazy not.

2. agreed
3. agreed, at least something similar
4. there is a blog somewhere I believe, should be linked like 3 as well though
5. it is fine where it is, not everyone needs to discuss crap. Probably like 5% do.

What exactly is crap about separating Installation support from General support for how the addon works? Neither of those are "crap" and it helps both dev and users to separate the topics. The dev can then easily find a post to give a link instead of redoing support. They are less likely to get repeat requests if the threads are shorter and better focused.

Similarly for a busy addon we as users don't want to wade through creative discussions about suggestions, or about secondary additions when we urgently need help to get installed or get it working or understand the basic controls. Some addons generate 20 - or far more - pages to plough through on a single thread and this can only get worse as time goes on.

I can see though that this could promote shallow threads by a dev wrongly thinking they MUST do them all, or else being bigheaded about it and rtumpeting with lots of unnecessary threads. That could be covered by a single starter thread and the dev has option to split it after its 3rd page. Which could get more fine tuned but that'll do for now.

 

[ChemicalKicks]

It appears like this was more a vent thread and there was never any intention to honestly include any of the given feedback, at least with the major suggestions.