Again mate, no one is saying that. The issue is and was simply that I came to you to ask and you made literally no mention of it and four days later yeah... It was kinda crappy, but it's done, we built the app anyways btw, I'm not mad but I also do not wish to do anymore development for XenForo, probably to you and others delight. At least not until I see roadmaps or I see the slew of hys videos. If I see a feeds or what's new improvement, I'm going to snicker a bit and know I made the right choice. If I don't, I'll probably send someone a message asking, and then release. I don't know really what else anyone would expect of me.
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Forsaken
Well-known member
They had clearly been working on it longer than four days
. I do not personally care about whether a PWA or native app are differentiated, I only said I could understand his frustration, as he had already voiced frustration going as far back as the reaction system announcement, and also the bookmark announcement.Mike took a risk on a native app after years and years of people requesting one, and had bad timing. Nothing more and nothing less, and it's a risk you take doing business. Neither you or he was in the wrong, so not sure why you're getting defensive, especially to someone who literally couldn't care either way.
Frode789
Well-known member
Well I sure would imagine, it's really needed..
I don't even know what you're trying to insinuate here. What difference would the four days have made, given that clearly your native app was already in the advanced stages of development? (You announced it five days after you messaged me).
I'm frustrated enough at the disingenuity of this as it is given you're picking fault about something nearly 2 years later that seemingly would have had zero impact on anything, and there was no intention to be "crappy" to you - and you should know that - but I really hope you're not trying to imply we introduced the PWA feature because you contacted me about a native app?
Either way, I'm extremely disappointed you've gone down this road with me when I clearly had no ill-intention and even responded to the question you asked candidly which was a courtesy that, at the time, we would likely not have extended to anyone else.
Whatever you decide to do from here out, I wish you and your businesses and ventures the best of luck.
imno007
Well-known member
Somebody needs a holiday. Take a break, mate.
By the way, I'm personally really enjoying the new AC.UI style and Feeds addon. I'm probably not using Feeds exactly as you guys intended, but it's made for a much superior What's New replacement for me. Thank you!
Why even bother asking if it was deep into development like you are suggesting.
That dog dont hunt.
Anatoliy
Well-known member
I do my thing and you do your thing.
I am not in this world to live up to your expectations,
and you are not in this world to live up to mine.
You are you, and I am I,
and if by chance we find each other, it's beautiful.
If not, it can't be helped.
— Fritz Perls, Gestalt Therapy Verbatim, 1969
I am not in this world to live up to your expectations,
and you are not in this world to live up to mine.
You are you, and I am I,
and if by chance we find each other, it's beautiful.
If not, it can't be helped.
— Fritz Perls, Gestalt Therapy Verbatim, 1969
Forsaken
Well-known member
Because they had at least two other add-ons that have been adopted into the core software twice prior? Because there may have been a hint dropped by a staff member at one point? How the hell should I know, I am clearly not @Mike Creuzer.
Clearly there was development done prior because there was enough to showcase what they had been working on around the same time PWA was announced, but they likely had to push up the announcement for their service to be relevant. Generally Audentio does not announce things until they are relatively close to some form of public testing or release, and they do a considerable amount of research into UI/UX patterns.
The only person who knows how much time investment or money investment was made is Mike, and my estimate on investment and conjecture on time is based solely on what I stated above.
You seem to be implying something nefarious that in reality doesnt exist.
Before you shed too many tears, keep in mind that Audentio has their own history of treading into other developers waters.
I think it is understandable that Mike would feel frustrated about the PWA not being mentioned in that conversation, even if he did not explicitly ask about PWA. I also think it is understandable that Chris did not feel he was being asked about PWA and did not realize that Mike would want to know about it. Both can be true at the same time.
If anything informative can be concluded from this conversation, it is that 3rd party developers and website admins running XF (such as myself) would benefit from and appreciate it if the XF Dev Team were to share their roadmap sooner and in more detail (with the understanding that plans do and can change at any moment). The XF Dev Team may or may not choose to do so. If they choose not to, I am sure they have their reasons for it. All we can do is express our preference.
If anything informative can be concluded from this conversation, it is that 3rd party developers and website admins running XF (such as myself) would benefit from and appreciate it if the XF Dev Team were to share their roadmap sooner and in more detail (with the understanding that plans do and can change at any moment). The XF Dev Team may or may not choose to do so. If they choose not to, I am sure they have their reasons for it. All we can do is express our preference.
1) History. vB4 had a lot of "features" promised, when they didnt appear in the first release or took time to be implemented, the webmaster community kicked up a stink with it for years.
2) Commercial advantage to new ideas/tech implementation.
3) A roadmap and features can be extremely fluid. Items can be canceled, postponed or changed many times, which can be just as frustrating for devs as not having one.
That was going to be my exact response. Any ideas tossed out would be held against them if they never bear fruit.
It happens every time.
Mendalla
Well-known member
In my 20+ years in IT, it has been bloody rare to have any "roadmap" actually be an accurate representation of what actually happened in the end. A certain large corporation beginning with M is terrible for constantly changing their "vision" and consequently their roadmaps. So I tend to take software roadmaps with a grain (okay, a whole shaker sometimes) of salt. At best, they tend to be an indication of general direction, but any specific features may or may not show up as planned.
I do hope the tonality of folks might change more into a positive light, but perhaps not. I simply wish to speak my perspective on why I don't feel comfortable releasing anything right away until I suppose Im proven wrong (and I suspect I wont be 
). I've said what I needed to, to XenForo's credit it wasn't deleted and I respect that. We can move back to on topic whenever. Ill forego a continued discussion of being "disingenuous" from Chris as clearly we disagree on what that word means and who is being what to whom. Its his community space, and if he wants to follow his own company's rules or not well Ill leave that up to him and XF. To my knowledge I am following rules here by criticizing politely and replying to why I haven't released anything related to the ideas I posted in the first post yet. And the potentiality that I may never.
I've been a member of XenForo since day 1 (12 years or so!), and I still care about this community, those who use XenForo, and have massive respect for Mike and Kier and others at XF. I hope at least some people out there see that I have been genuine in my attempt to help innovate this software, and perhaps that effort is simply just not appreciated. But Ive always been a fan of XenForo software, continue to be to this day, and at least would love to share some ideas (if that works for XenForo)
If I do release now, and they do this again, well everyone's life is now more complex with respect to their platform. Youll change your theme and lose time invested in it (as someone originally said and where this discussion diverged), move back to the native systems (sometimes) and just waste everyone's time with difficult work. I suppose Im falling on my sword a bit to save all of us a bit of time and money as well. Perhaps I should ask the folks at our team to post...somewhere...how complex it is to fix when this happens and how much stress and turmoil it causes everyone.
Thanks for the thoughts all.
). I've said what I needed to, to XenForo's credit it wasn't deleted and I respect that. We can move back to on topic whenever. Ill forego a continued discussion of being "disingenuous" from Chris as clearly we disagree on what that word means and who is being what to whom. Its his community space, and if he wants to follow his own company's rules or not well Ill leave that up to him and XF. To my knowledge I am following rules here by criticizing politely and replying to why I haven't released anything related to the ideas I posted in the first post yet. And the potentiality that I may never.I've been a member of XenForo since day 1 (12 years or so!), and I still care about this community, those who use XenForo, and have massive respect for Mike and Kier and others at XF. I hope at least some people out there see that I have been genuine in my attempt to help innovate this software, and perhaps that effort is simply just not appreciated. But Ive always been a fan of XenForo software, continue to be to this day, and at least would love to share some ideas (if that works for XenForo)
This is not the case, simply as it is horrible business to do so (why build something where you will split your sales?). At very least completely unintentionally. Im not sure of any such examples. On at least three separate occasions developers here have released similar products within days or weeks of each other. Its frustrating but it happens. (WordPress integration, Reactions, Im sure there are others)
Im not sure how to respond exactly. We decided to invest anyways into native app, none of that is being disputed. My point, again, was simply that I didn't receive a response that was accurate at least in my opinion. Perhaps for example if I were to ask if a Feeds product or modern theme were being developed I might get a similar response. "Feeds? No." And then later "Oh but a complete revamp of whats new, well you didn't say that." I hold no grudge, but again I don't feel like I wish to release anything any more. My advice to other developers here would be the same, but thats up to them to decide what is best.
If I do release now, and they do this again, well everyone's life is now more complex with respect to their platform. Youll change your theme and lose time invested in it (as someone originally said and where this discussion diverged), move back to the native systems (sometimes) and just waste everyone's time with difficult work. I suppose Im falling on my sword a bit to save all of us a bit of time and money as well. Perhaps I should ask the folks at our team to post...somewhere...how complex it is to fix when this happens and how much stress and turmoil it causes everyone.
Thanks for the thoughts all.
Nicolas FR
Well-known member
I asked myself this type of question when @Nulumia released its SEO add-on, a titanic job of several months... And if XF releases the same thing natively with 2.3 it would be a disaster for him so I was wondering if the developers third parties communicated with XenForo developers, a priori not. It's risky so...
Sheldon
Well-known member
Those seem a bit contradictory... Care about the community, Kier, Mike, "others", want to innovate the software, etc... But yet, your advice to other developers is to not release anything any more? WTF? So, you advising others not to help out the community by releasing perhaps innovative add-ons, shows you care about the community. Got it.
I think.
Looks to me like we are union-ing up. Good luck everyone.
To wait for HYS videos or threads? To wait for a more concrete roadmap? That is THAT crazy to advise after my experience with doing otherwise?
I recommend you read the thread before jumping in...this is what Ive said I want to wait for. But as usual using logic on this community sometimes with some people is just not possible.
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Sheldon
Well-known member
A roadmap... that hasn't appeared after 12 years of XF. Yeah, they may just change it up soon.
I've read the thread. Thanks.
You really want me to run through them?
There are MANY I used only to see you "re-create" them
Bookmarks
"emoticons"
Install and Upgrade
Donate
Wordpress bridge. There were a few already in testing when yours came out
I am sure there are more I am forgetting.
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