Looking for feedback: A new look at forum user experience

[Mike C]

A roadmap... that hasn't appeared after 12 years of XF. Yeah, they may just change it up soon.

Im not expecting that or any change, again meeerely answering why Im not releasing anything until HYS is out. Ideally not that bizarre but here we are. I tried asking, and I shared my experience with why that didn't work.

You really want me to run through them?

There are MANY I used only to see you "re-create" them

Bookmarks
"emoticons"
Install and Upgrade
Donate
Wordpress bridge. There were a few already in testing when yours came out

I am sure there are more I am forgetting.

Install and Upgrade had a XF1 version, and ours was built to ideally integrate with other third party devs. We even open sourced it I think but it never kicked off. Happens. We use it now for managing our own stuff, and if it helps we could rename it to "ThemeHouse installer" or something. But it does work generically. I can take blame for it not working with other third party devs, Im sure I could have done more but was likely more of a lack of time issue.

We've had WordPress tools for I imagine 5 years now. XPress did something completely different with moving WP into XF, something that there still doesnt exist anything for and probably shouldn't as it was extremely hard to get right for everyone.

For the rest: there were XF1 versions of these, same with Reactions and such. And sometimes there may have been something like I think Andy had a donate add-on for XF2 but we wanted to add certain other features that expanded the scope. Others have addons that do slightly more than ours did and vice versa, that is never the concern and is to be entirely expected. More strawmans to my argument which I dont think I wish to humor responses to any longer forgive me.

But again, for the fifteenth time, my issue is NOT with the existance of a PWA which makes sense, its in my response in asking. But heaven forbid I show a bit of public criticism here Im just saying what a lot of people who wish to stay private are thinking.

I need to move on. If mods could either move back to topic or just close thatd be great.

 

[Frode789]

Would be a shame to close this thread, as Mike brings up a lot of excellent points (read the OP if you haven't) worth discussing, on how to bring forward XF and improve on the user experience.

 

[Blatchy]

I need to move on. If mods could either move back to topic or just close thatd be great.

So you come on here

1. air your dirty laundry
2. try and show you have some clout by "telling" on chris to the other devs
3. Go around and "like" any negative comments made about xenforo
4. Leave with a parting shot

And now YOU want the last word?

 

[RDR]

So you come on here

1. air your dirty laundry
2. try and show you have some clout by "telling" on chris to the other devs
3. Go around and "like" any negative comments made about xenforo
4. Leave with a parting shot

And now YOU want the last word?

Was thinking along the same lines.

There is a pattern over the years which is a shame. I guess take the good with the bad.

 

[Sheldon]

Im not expecting that or any change, again meeerely answering why Im not releasing anything until HYS is out.

I get it, I do. However, my only question... why would you advise others not to release anything. That is simply what baffles me. Unless you are trying to unite everyone with torches and pitchforks, that comment serves no other purpose. Really.

If I am wrong, I apologize. That is, however, how an outsider will most likely read that statement.

 

[Mike C]

I get it, I do. However, my only question... why would you advise others not to release anything. That is simply what baffles me. Unless you are trying to unite everyone with torches and pitchforks, that comment serves no other purpose. Really.

If I am wrong, I apologize. That is, however, how an outsider will most likely read that statement.

You might be right that I forgot to, at least in that particular post, mention the HYS videos or roadmap but I did mention that in all prior posts. Fair point. That isn't my intention, but instead to advise developers who have developed so much into their addons to wait for HYSs.

 

[Blatchy]

That isn't my intention, but instead to advise developers who have developed so much into their addons to wait for HYSs.

Or run everything by you first...

 

[Kevin]

[/QUOTE]

advise developers who have developed so much into their addons to wait for HYSs.

And then what? 🤔 Somebody has an idea for a new add-on but you "advise" developers to wait for the next round of HYS videos for presumably 2.3 before they work on it? OK, the HYS videos for 2.3 come out, the idea isn't mentioned, what then? Go ahead and work on the add-on or wait until the 2.4 HYS videos come out? Then wait for 2.5 HYS's? What if 2.4 comes out with the same idea as the 3rd-party add-on that was developed after the 2.3 HYS's and before the 2.4 HYS's?

 

[Brogan]

Sigh ...

I've seen the reports related to this thead, but it's Friday night and I'm well into beer mode so they will be addressed at a later date.

In the meantime, try and play nice.

 

[Kevin]

I'm well into beer mode

Based on some of the comments in this thread, I think some folks started beer mode way earlier than you.

 

[sbj]

It feels like a "witch hunt" or like a "fanboy syndrome" seeing all the people attacking Mike Creuzer because of his dialogue between him and Chris and gatekeeping XF.

I think it can be classified as mobbing, I don't like this kind of attitude at all. At the end of the day, it is his thread and he was asked questions or it was talked about TH. So it is quite normal him writing stuff. You guys should be neutral and not interfere like this. And also it is normal him trying to end the conversation here since you guys are getting personal. That behaviour is not nice.

With that being said, I also can't understand how those 4 days could have made a difference. It simply reads like that Chris didn't intentionally skip any information. I think it didn't come to his mind that PWA can be or is considered as an app, so he didn't include that in his reply. However, even if he intentionally did not mention it, firstly, XF never promised anyone to mention anything and secondly those 4 days should have made no difference I believe.

And yet again, with that being said, I also dislike the way XF handles development. To me it feels like they don't have the same passion as we users have. We don't get to know when things will be released, we don't get to say what we want to see, we don't get any information at all. It is not just bad for developers but bad for us admins, too. We all need so many things done on our boards and need to hire devs for expensive work. I don't live in a luxurious environment, I can't afford just like that anything I want. I have to think about in what I will invest and not. All those addon linceses, renewals, server costs etc. add so much up. Having to pay extra for custom development sucks in addition to that. But it sucks more, knowing that it could have been avoided if we knew what XF is working on. Imagine paying someone for a custom development and 1 month later seeing it added to the XF core. That feels bad. So I understand also Mike Creuzer. Because it sucks probably more for him because a company loses much more investment (money and time) than a regular admin.

As a simple admin I like so many things about XF, they do so many things right, but I don't think development they do right. I have this feeling since XF 1.4. Where is Mike (the XF admin)? He hasn't written a single post since July 2021. He is away for 2-3 years now basically. Kier was away for a long time, too, came back for a short time, now away again. Not to mention that XF got 2 new developers added to the team, yet XF became slower than before. How is this possible? I don't understand this at all. Because the development stuff is not transparent, all we can do is just guess and assume. Maybe my complaint is not right, maybe Mike Creuzer's view is wrong, but without transparency this is the outcome.

And it feels like they don't have an internal roadmap which is why they can't share it with us, even if they wanted. I try not to be this negative in the official XF forums, I always try to stay positive and be supporting. I save it for other places, just so I don't shed a bad light here. Overall XF is a great platform, so it would be disingenuous to sabotage it. But when the time comes, like here, one also should be courageous and also say it out loud. Just like Mike Creuzer did or like I do partly. At the end of the day, we all want the best for XF. If XF wins, we win, if XF gets better, we get better. But again, the passion is not there I think. And I believe Mike Creuzer has had enough with XF because of that. It blew my mind when they announced that they are (semi-)leaving XF. Imagine seeing all the official collaborations they have done and then getting that news. It just feels like more and more devs are leaving XF and XF just does not care. It makes me worried about the future.

PS: But I also have to say that XF never censored anyone from what I have seen all these years. Their integrity is top notch.

 

[Blatchy]

like a "fanboy syndrome"

should be courageous and also say it out loud. Just like Mike Creuzer did or like I do partly

Yeah you dont have a horse in the race /s

 

[sbj]

Yeah you dont have a horse in the race /s

Look, you are acting childish. In 8 years I received 2 warnings I believe, I don't want to receive my 3rd one by showing your place. Stop getting personal.

In any case, if you are insinuating I am somehow on Mike Creuzer's corner, whatever that might be, you can't be more wrong. Since I openly also criticized his business a lot in the past and do so now. Heck, read post number 10 in this thread I've written on June last year. This is also the reason I keep getting alerts from this thread, because I participated in this thread long ago. Before you were even aware of this thread, fanboy. So, take your attitude with you and think before you write.

 

[Blatchy]

Before you were even aware of this thread, fanboy. So, take your attitude with you and think before you write.

Stop getting personal.

Hypocrite much?

 

[Nicolas FR]

In the meantime, try and play nice.

 

[Kier]

Kier was away for a long time, too, came back for a short time, now away again.

I'm not away. There is far more to what I do than what is publicly visible.

It's a great shame this thread has deteriorated to the extent that it has, that I have to come and post here.

I think that comparisons between the work involved in adding PWA functionality to XenForo versus producing a native app are disingenuous. There is a gaping chasm of difference between the two and I'm really not surprised that Chris did not mention anything about PWA functionality (the most important and developmentally complex parts of which, namely responsive design and push notifications were already in XenForo) when he was asked specifically about whether or not we had plans to produce a native app. Having read the exchange, he was in fact especially forthcoming about our plans and considerations in that arena, and didn't mention our PWA work because as one developer speaking to another about a specific approach, he did not consider it relevant.

To address the age old concerns about the lack of transparency regarding future XenForo feature development, I have been badly burned in the past two decades by announcing plans too early, and having the dual impact of competitors rushing out half-baked implementations of functionality we have described in order to be 'first', together with negative feedback from customers upset that we are not immediately working on the specific features they may want for their own sites. Contrary to popular misconception, we have an extensive internal backlog of features and functionality that we work from, with systems frequently in development and stages of refinement years in advance of their public debut. This is not unusual practice.

If you are a developer considering working on a particular feature, get in touch and ask specific questions. While we will expect our answers to be confidential, we're not averse to confirming whether or not we are working on something that you might be thinking about, or that we might in future, as some parties contributing to this thread can attest.

 

[Mike C]

Since we are continuing:

What was intended to be rationale on why I cannot afford to invest heavily in XenForo until hys videos are posted has spiraled into certain people being rather defensive on what, to me, was an obvious and clear disingenuous response from Chris and is highlighting the core reason we are not releasing anything right now. Customers deserve an honest, transparent answer and that is my rationale which I fail to see what was unreasonable. I don't understand the hostile response from Chris but it's all too familiar on this forum. It's quite sad to see but my complaints I hope help change that. I think, in reality, constructive feedback really isn't appreciated at the moment, I'll stay quiet and eventually be moving on entirely. It's just a bit sad is all but I'll get over it. I've met amazing lifelong friends and colleagues here and am grateful to be a part of this space.

Given this stance from Chris I have a strong idea of what's in the next HYS videos anyways. For the record, any features added to XenForo save's money for all of us so please add away . My involvement in XenForo for 12 years shows I'm no threat to XenForo. I am happy not selling licenses in any major capacity as I am now and being a regular license holder in most respects. I simply wished to share some thoughts, write some thought pieces, and who knows what.

Chris could have mentioned the pwa if he wasnt being disingenuous (btw UI.X had pwa support for at least two years prior to XF launch anyways, pwa is still not the point) He could have given more than a day to let us know before launching all the features in 2.1 that caused us to start over with almost our entire addon product line. Private messages and reports that I send to staff could go with even the slightest response or even sign of kindness. Threads I post could do without being closed unceremoniously. When the same ol XenForo forum boys come in with their broken record responses some level of moderation to keep things civil would be nice, (they've ruined this community fyi) my team members who donated their editing, planning, and hosting time could go with being respected and replied to (the main reason I decided to leave Insights, among other reasons). Some sign of solidarity with people who have supported this software for so many years could I don't know be worthwhile?

XenForo didn't become the most popular commerical forum software on it's own, it was this entire community particularly the third party developers (of which I personally am a mere theme designer originally mind you - we maybe dont deserve as much credit ) and I certainly don't mean me, I mean the pioneers who helped move people from VB here and we'll they seem to mostly be gone now.

I wouldn't have gone into some of these issues if this issue was treated in any normal way and I'm now indirectly invited to respond to this thread instead. There is truth, strong truth, in what I have said though. People can believe my perspective and experience or go with the status quo and typical defenses. I am a mere customer and heavy supporter and investor into the XenForo space and deserve to not be attacked when I respond to the provable reasons why I don't wish to release the feeds products which people have continually asked for. The fact I have been personally attacked by official XenForo staff and official XenForo discord clique is profoundly troubling. A private message or email goes a long way fellas. Perhaps my opinion of what community is is just that far off and away different.

I'll share more of my perspective some other time and certainly some other place. Meanwhile since I assume emails will be ignored, I'd like to request for at least the third time that this thread be moved on topic or closed (assuming that is still standard procedure) If neither please delete my first post at least. I always welcome a message from anyone but I do need to be moving on as I've said what I've come to say.

In closing, I do wish XenForo the best. Truly. I wouldn't be here if I didn't. Hopefully some of my ideas here get implemented. Hopefully others have a better experience than I have had. I have strong admiration in @Kier and @Mike as people I looked up to as a kid to now. We see differently and that is ok (someone made a nice quote on that). I look forward to seeing what 2022 brings xf and will be watching with the rest.

 

[Mike C]

Worth noting that this WHOLE thing started with me replying to someone regarding releasing feeds. I had asked @nikkiradloff to prep the page for release as a free supported addon and my hesitancy was waiting for HYS first. We were even prepping it. :/

 

[Anatoliy]

If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired.
Anton Chekhov

When you started this thread with "look at my UX ideas" you already knew that you'll fire in the second act with "but it will never happen unless they respect my authoritah!". Correct?

 

[Mike C]

If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired.
Anton Chekhov

When you started this thread with "look at my UX ideas" you already knew that you'll fire in the second act with "but it will never happen unless they respect my authoritah!". Correct?

If they took umbridge they can just delete tho. This was supposed to be ideas and a new experience for forums in general not just XenForo per se as it's in off topic. But mainly XenForo as that has been my favorite forum software.

But you may be right and my tone may be incorrect in places. That is definitely frustration seeping through. I've spoken truths but I also am guilty of not always carrying the right tone.