Wordpress Drama

[RobinHood]

WPFusion sent a C&D to Automattic and Wordpress.com to have them remove their product from their customer-only repo:

Regarding our Cease and Desist letter to Automattic | WP Fusion

To start, if you haven't heard about the #wpdrama that's taken over WordPress in the last month, congratulations 😊. I imagine you've had a…

wpfusion.com

This was always super shady IMO.

You have wordpress.com, which is a paid hosting service. They mirror the entirety of the free.org repo, but then paywall all the free plugins behind a paid business plan.

They not only lock these free plugins behind a paywall for their customers, but they literally mirrored every listing from the .org repo on .com, and didn't use no index or canonicalize it, so the .com plugin listings frequently rank higher in search results.

That always felt super off to me, interesting to see plugin authors fighting back on that.

 

[Suzanne O]

This was always super shady IMO.

You have wordpress.com, which is a paid hosting service. They mirror the entirety of the free.org repo, but then paywall all the free plugins behind a paid business plan.

They not only lock these free plugins behind a paywall for their customers, but they literally mirrored every listing from the .org repo on .com, and didn't use no index or canonicalize it, so the .com plugin listings frequently rank higher in search results.

That always felt super off to me, interesting to see plugin authors fighting back on that.

When i used wordpress all i used it for free as only used it for blogging.
But you can use the paid version if you wanted to add your custom url.

 

[Forsaken]

This was always super shady IMO.

You have wordpress.com, which is a paid hosting service. They mirror the entirety of the free.org repo, but then paywall all the free plugins behind a paid business plan.

They not only lock these free plugins behind a paywall for their customers, but they literally mirrored every listing from the .org repo on .com, and didn't use no index or canonicalize it, so the .com plugin listings frequently rank higher in search results.

That always felt super off to me, interesting to see plugin authors fighting back on that.

You know if another company did that, and made it indexable Matt would flip and raise hell (I believe he has done so before).

 

[Mr Lucky]

Not really, the domain is open and using FR has no bearing on the domain .com

By the domain is open, do you mean it was available and therefore fair game to use. That is true providing either:

There is no confusion with the existing trademark
The trademark is used with consent from the owner.

My grandmother's name was Gladys Xenforo, she would be just as entitled to an available xenforo domain as the company xenForo. ie holding a trademark doesn't entitle anyone to a domain name - but if that name is a trademark and causes confusion within the sector then you could be in trouble.

 

[AjayJunkies]

About 2 years ago, I created xenforo.fr a XenForo support forum in French.
Before purchasing the domain name I contacted the XF team via the ticket system to ask them if it was okay for me to purchase this domain name. They said it was no problem as long as I didn't try to pass myself off as the original. Subsequently I posted a notice on the forum indicating that I was not affiliated in any way with XenForo LTD, this notice was permanent, it was Kier who kindly offered to make it dismissible from users.

Appreciate you sharing your story. I think the key is communicating your intentions up front and being ethical about it - you weren't intending to compete with XF itself, you weren't intending to pretend to be the French version of XF, etc.

 

[AjayJunkies]

To take your point a bit further, this would allow him to create a site called xenforohosting.com if mr lucky is ever to be listened to and not be infringing on xenforos trademark. To which I highly suggest they do not permit that lol but apparently Chris is fine with it.

I actually think - and this is me pontificating with all the expertise as an armchair lawyer with my zero law degrees - there is a huge distinction between:
XenforoHosting
XFHosting

The first domain and service clearly contains the full trademark name of Xenforo. The second just contains ... A scramble of two letters. Maybe it's XanyFreaks! Maybe it's XylophoneFish! MySiteGuy is a really creative guy into more than just vehicle metaphors!

In any case, and this is to go back to the original premise, I can see Matt M's point. He built an incredible ecosystem, and there are people who have profited tremendously off of the ecosystem, and it would make sense that those who benefited the most contribute back in some manner. Even if it's not required. I think part of his anger is that he shouldn't have needed to demand contributions from WPEngine, they should have been positive actors to the ecosystem to begin with.

 

[puertoblack2003]

About 2 years ago, I created xenforo.fr a XenForo support forum in French.
Before purchasing the domain name I contacted the XF team via the ticket system to ask them if it was okay for me to purchase this domain name. They said it was no problem as long as I didn't try to pass myself off as the original. Subsequently I posted a notice on the forum indicating that I was not affiliated in any way with XenForo LTD, this notice was permanent, it was Kier who kindly offered to make it dismissible from users.

I guess the domain is being occupied by the Russians

 

[MySiteGuy]

It gives me the right to drive around with it in full public display. Thanks for helping me prove my point.

Ignorance of trademark law, what trademarks actually protect, licensing, and what fair use is, isn't something you should boast about.

Driving the car is fair use of the trademark, because it is not commercial exploitation of that trademark. Its the difference between
a. Installing Xenforo, leaving the logo and running a non-related forum. This is not an attempt to commercially exploit Xenforo's logo.
b. Installing Xenforo, leaving the logo, setting up the site to try to fool people into thinking your site is Xenforo, and attempting to conduct commerce while giving the impression you're Xenforo. This is an attempt to commercially exploit Xenforo's logo.

 

[Dad.]

I actually think - and this is me pontificating with all the expertise as an armchair lawyer with my zero law degrees - there is a huge distinction between:
XenforoHosting
XFHosting

The first domain and service clearly contains the full trademark name of Xenforo. The second just contains ... A scramble of two letters. Maybe it's XanyFreaks! Maybe it's XylophoneFish! MySiteGuy is a really creative guy into more than just vehicle metaphors!

In any case, and this is to go back to the original premise, I can see Matt M's point. He built an incredible ecosystem, and there are people who have profited tremendously off of the ecosystem, and it would make sense that those who benefited the most contribute back in some manner. Even if it's not required. I think part of his anger is that he shouldn't have needed to demand contributions from WPEngine, they should have been positive actors to the ecosystem to begin with.

I tend to agree actually, though clearly its an unpopular opinion. And people don't seem to understand exactly what you said. If I built some ecosystem, and some other group had profited off my continued investment more than I was, it would make sense to not allow them to do that without paying something. And I think there absolutely is confusion in the market even with "WPEngine" (though I dont think there is a case for it). All in all I understand his perspective, and he probably could have made some reasonable claim about resource usage or something, but not sure he went about it even remotely the right way.

 

[badmonkey]

Ignorance of trademark law, what trademarks actually protect, licensing, and what fair use is, isn't something you should boast about.

Driving the car is fair use of the trademark, because it is not commercial exploitation of that trademark. Its the difference between
a. Installing Xenforo, leaving the logo and running a non-related forum. This is not an attempt to commercially exploit Xenforo's logo.
b. Installing Xenforo, leaving the logo, setting up the site to try to fool people into thinking your site is Xenforo, and attempting to conduct commerce while giving the impression you're Xenforo. This is an attempt to commercially exploit Xenforo's logo.

Perhaps ignorance of what I'm saying isn't something you should boast about.

I'm in no way suggesting anyone break tradmark law, nor in any way unfairly represent their site. However, by including said nametag, they aren't exactly ducking anyone who may press the boundaries.

Let's think about this, using your example loosely. How many Chevrolet sites exist? How many Ford? How many ......

.....and how many have properly, legally, requested permission to use any given name?? Shall we execute every individual who posts the name "Dodge"? Of course not. It's ludicrous. But it's still using a Trademark name without express consent.

Similarly, should someone operate a site dedicated to Xenforo tips and tricks, or mods or ..... how would it be different? Oh wait, there are already how many of those?

The door isn't exactly closed.

 

[Forsaken]

Perhaps ignorance of what I'm saying isn't something you should boast about.

I'm in no way suggesting anyone break tradmark law, nor in any way unfairly represent their site. However, by including said nametag, they aren't exactly ducking anyone who may press the boundaries.

Let's think about this, using your example loosely. How many Chevrolet sites exist? How many Ford? How many ......

.....and how many have properly, legally, requested permission to use any given name?? Shall we execute every individual who posts the name "Dodge"? Of course not. It's ludicrous. But it's still using a Trademark name without express consent.

Similarly, should someone operate a site dedicated to Xenforo tips and tricks, or mods or ..... how would it be different? Oh wait, there are already how many of those?

The door isn't exactly closed.

You're basically agreeing with his examples .

Back on the actual topic, and not a pointless roundabout slap fight discussion over trademark: https://ma.tt/2024/10/first-amendment/

 

[badmonkey]

You're basically agreeing with his examples .

Back on the actual topic, and not a pointless roundabout slap fight discussion over trademark: https://ma.tt/2024/10/first-amendment/

That's already been stated.

 

[tajhay]

When i used wordpress all i used it for free as only used it for blogging.
But you can use the paid version if you wanted to add your custom url.

Please stop posting incorrect info as facts. You can use wordpress for free on your own domain. Its open source.

Whoever taught you anything tech needs to be rounded up and put on stage as a circus act.

 

[Ricsca]

You can say what you want but Wordpress is Matt's and if Matt is now the proponent, he has every right to do so!
Both wordpress.org and wordpress.com are Matt's and Wordpress is identified with WP all over the world!
Matt also has wp.org and wp.com that redirect to their respective sites.
Wp-engine has never been a simple hosting that also resold personalized spaces for those who wanted to use wordpress! Wp-engine has earned millions of dollars by appearing to be a Wordpress service (it is called Wordpress Engine), using the services of wordpress.org and competing directly with wordpress.com!
If after years and millions of dollars of earnings, Matt decided to ask them for a percentage of the turnover, I would say that he was even too patient and they could not refuse since they depend 100% on wordpress which is Matt's!
The basis of every commercial activity is to diversify your earnings so Wp-engine has made mistakes on all fronts and now they are paying the consequences!

 

[Taylor J]

Now that’s a horrible take.

 

[Jake B.]

You can say what you want but Wordpress is Matt's and if Matt is now the proponent, he has every right to do so!
Both wordpress.org and wordpress.com are Matt's and Wordpress is identified with WP all over the world!
Matt also has wp.org and wp.com that redirect to their respective sites.
Wp-engine has never been a simple hosting that also resold personalized spaces for those who wanted to use wordpress! Wp-engine has earned millions of dollars by appearing to be a Wordpress service (it is called Wordpress Engine), using the services of wordpress.org and competing directly with wordpress.com!
If after years and millions of dollars of earnings, Matt decided to ask them for a percentage of the turnover, I would say that he was even too patient and they could not refuse since they depend 100% on wordpress which is Matt's!
The basis of every commercial activity is to diversify your earnings so Wp-engine has made mistakes on all fronts and now they are paying the consequences!

Wordpress is an open source software. There is no reason they would have to pay to use the software. If they wanted to license it commercially they should not have used an open source model, or should have used a license which does not allow commercial use.

As for the trademark claim, Between September 12th, 2010 (The oldest archive of this specific URL) and September 24th, 2024 their trademark policy explicitly said:

The abbreviation “WP” is not covered by the WordPress trademarks and you are free to use it in any way you see fit.

On September 25th, 2024 they updated it to say:

The abbreviation “WP” is not covered by the WordPress trademarks, but please don’t use it in a way that confuses people. For example, many people think WP Engine is “WordPress Engine” and officially associated with WordPress, which it’s not. They have never once even donated to the WordPress Foundation, despite making billions of revenue on top of WordPress.

The precedent was already set, if he had an issue with someone using "WP" as part of their name they should not have explicitly said that "you are free to use it in any way you see fit" for at least 14 years

 

[Ricsca]

@Jake B.
WordPress is open source but the program was created by Matt and the foundation is run by Matt.
wp-engine has made millions of dollars by pretending it was a WordPress service and competing with WordPress.com which is Matt's company!
You're all good at chatting but I'd like to see if anyone tries to take away your customers by pretending to be you...
Mat is being a bully but that a company that makes millions of dollars like Wp-engine hasn't diversified and calculated that this could happen is ridiculous...

 

[TLDR]

wp-engine has made millions of dollars by pretending it was a WordPress service and competing with WordPress.com which is Matt's company!

Automattic had shares of WPE (i.e. they owned it in part) before the sold them to Silver Lake. Which owns WPE now.

 

[Arantor]

Matt’s company Automattic used to be an investor in WPE for a number of years, I guess it couldn’t have been that bad. He sold up in 2018. Just when Silver Lake came in. (Edit: ninja’d)

Also do note that a consortium of PE folks including BlackRock have a share in Automattic so this “private equity is bad” stance is only true if it’s not Automattic, I guess. I wouldn’t be surprised if this whole deal is because they want more growth out of Automattic and the only way to do that is to squeeze all the ecosystem, biggest first to put the fear into the rest.

Seriously, the notes from the legal folks indicate they plan to get licensing agreements with others, not just WPE. They’re just the biggest and Matt clearly expected them to pay up so others would too.

 

[Digital Doctor]

To me, this argument is just about money. WP Engine isn't technically obligated to pay anything .... but they should definitely contribute money. Seems like very bad business on their part to NOT contribute.

Automattic (I see the Matt reference there, rolls eyes)​

how much has Automattic donated to Wordpress ? I know WP Engine is zero. I see reports of millions and other reports of "almost nothing".