Wordpress Drama

[Jake B.]

@Jake B.
WordPress is open source but the program was created by Matt and the foundation is run by Matt.
wp-engine has made millions of dollars by pretending it was a WordPress service and competing with WordPress.com which is Matt's company!
You're all good at chatting but I'd like to see if anyone tries to take away your customers by pretending to be you...
Mat is being a bully but that a company that makes millions of dollars like Wp-engine hasn't diversified and calculated that this could happen is ridiculous...

okay, and?

How is it pretending to be a wordpress service, when Wordpress explicitly said in their trademark policy that

The abbreviation “WP” is not covered by the WordPress trademarks and you are free to use it in any way you see fit.

They're not obligated to pay them anything to use an open source software, there is no stipulation in the GPL license that if you make over $x you have to pay them y%, and it's a massive stretch for them to claim trademark infringement when up until less than a month ago they explicitly said anyone could use that abbreviation as they see fit.

Not to mention, as others have pointed out, Automattic until a few years ago invested in WP-Engine. He's destroyed any sort of respect that pretty much anyone has had in him, and his company, in a few short weeks.

 

[Digital Doctor]

BlackRock have a share in Automattic

it's definitely just about money.

 

[Sim]

WordPress is open source but the program was created by Matt

You should read up on the history of how WordPress was created.

Matt didn't write the software - he took existing software (b2 / cafelog), forked it and rebranded it Wordpress.

Being open source software, it is not been developed by Matt (at least not exclusively) - it has been developed by the community at large with contributions from hundreds of different people.

The infrastructure behind WordPress.org and Wordpress.com is a different matter and that's where the lines get blurred.

The real questions start around the philosophical debate about where the "software" ends and the "infrastructure" supporting it starts. Given WordPress.org is integral to running the software - it could be argued that the infrastructure there is just as much a part of the software as the php code itself.

Wikipedia's entry on WordPress starts: "WordPress (WP, or WordPress.org) is a web content management system." - that would imply that there is conceptually no difference between WordPress and WordPress.org - they are considered by many to be the same thing (noting that WordPress.com has always been a commercial site and is very different to WordPress.org).

Indeed the main reason for WordPress's success has been its extensive catalogue of community provided plugins, hosted on WordPress.org - without which the software would not be the success it is today. So while it's just semantics - I think the broader community would consider the WordPress.org website and the WordPress software itself to be largely synonymous.

Whether the legal system would agree is unlikely - but I think this is the reckoning that the open source community has been facing for a long time now and the fallout from this fight could have very wide-reaching implications for all open source software. When commercial interests take over, it leaves the unpaid volunteers feeling like their efforts have only been enriching someone else.

 

[Forsaken]

Regarding the money that was meant to be contributed (partially as a trademark license)... How much of it do you think will actually go towards Wordpress Foundation? The reason that the trademark is exclusively licensed to Automattic is so that they can profit off of it. The Wordpress Foundation is worth $200k cash, and $850k total (mostly assets) when there are other trademark license deals, and if they are anywhere close to what was being asked from WPEngine, then there is a significant amount Automattic takes and does not pass on to the Wordpress Foundation so I do not see how you can argue that it is contributing to Wordpress itself.

Chances are with the lawsuit we'll get some dirty laundry aired about how things are truly structured between the Wordpress Foundation, Automattic and Matt himself.

 

[MySiteGuy]

okay, and?

How is it pretending to be a wordpress service, when Wordpress explicitly said in their trademark policy that

1. WP Engine has used the term "WordPress Engine" on their site.
2. WP Engine's customer use case has the term "WordPress Engine" on their site.
3. WP Engine's makes no attempt throughout their About Us page to differentiate themselves from WordPress.

The rest of your post, I agree with. Matt is currently a bird crapping in its own nest.

 

[Arantor]

Do note, if WPE loses the lawsuits and ends up paying the tax to Automattic, other hosts will be next. This was made clear by the documents relating to the licensing plans.

NB, BlueHost is already paying a WP tax. No idea if it’s as high as 8% or not of their revenue.

 

[Ricsca]

You should read up on the history of how WordPress was created.

Matt didn't write the software - he took existing software (b2 / cafelog), forked it and rebranded it Wordpress.

Being open source software, it is not been developed by Matt (at least not exclusively) - it has been developed by the community at large with contributions from hundreds of different people.

The infrastructure behind WordPress.org and Wordpress.com is a different matter and that's where the lines get blurred.

The real questions start around the philosophical debate about where the "software" ends and the "infrastructure" supporting it starts. Given WordPress.org is integral to running the software - it could be argued that the infrastructure there is just as much a part of the software as the php code itself.

Wikipedia's entry on WordPress starts: "WordPress (WP, or WordPress.org) is a web content management system." - that would imply that there is conceptually no difference between WordPress and WordPress.org - they are considered by many to be the same thing (noting that WordPress.com has always been a commercial site and is very different to WordPress.org).

Indeed the main reason for WordPress's success has been its extensive catalogue of community provided plugins, hosted on WordPress.org - without which the software would not be the success it is today. So while it's just semantics - I think the broader community would consider the WordPress.org website and the WordPress software itself to be largely synonymous.

Whether the legal system would agree is unlikely - but I think this is the reckoning that the open source community has been facing for a long time now and the fallout from this fight could have very wide-reaching implications for all open source software. When commercial interests take over, it leaves the unpaid volunteers feeling like their efforts have only been enriching someone else.

Matt managed to make Wordpress what it is today so Wordpress belongs to Mat, there's no point in beating around the bush!
If you call yourself Wp Engine and you compete economically with Matt by pretending to be an official Wordpress site, sooner or later Matt will stop you!
There's no point in chatting about copyrights now! Those who went to Wp-engine were led to think that it was a Wordpress service!
If Matt allowed Wp-engine to use the Wordpress.org service (the various APIs for updates etc.) for years, he doesn't have to give them to him for life!
He has every right to ask for a percentage of the turnover and Wp-engine, being 100% dependent on Wordpress.org, couldn't refuse! He refused and now the consequence is that Matt doesn't let him use his services anymore! Is Matt being a bully? He's being a bully but he has every right and possibility to do so since Wordpress is his product...

 

[Mr Lucky]

Those who went to Wp-engine were led to think that it was a Wordpress service!

I looked very carefully at using WP Engine when I needed a new host and it seemed very obvious that there was nothing on their site that appeared to make it affiliated with WP beyond claiming that they were very experienced at hosting and supporting WP installations.

 

[Kirby]

Wordpress belongs to Mat, there's no point in beating around the bush!

The last time I looked at WordPress it was GPLv2 licensed software, eg. Matt does not own WordPress (the software, things may very well be different for the trademark and wordpress.org).
So everyone can do whatever GPLv2 allows them to do - including making millions of $ without legally owing Matt anything beyond the requirements of GPLv2.

Might be unpopular thinking, but really - if software developers expect to gain anyting from developing their software (except maybe some praise, appreciation, etc.) they probably should not license their works under open source licenses as that just doesn't work for the general crowd due to human attitudes at grand.

 

[Ricsca]

I looked very carefully at using WP Engine when I needed a new host and it seemed very obvious that there was nothing on their site that appeared to make it affiliated with WP beyond claiming that they were very experienced at hosting and supporting WP installations.

Wp-engine customers are not expert users looking for hosting but people who know very little about the web and who simply want a website made with wordpress managed by others!
This is why Matt created wordpress.com and Wp-engine offered the exact same service by making a site that made everyone think except the fact that it was not an official wordpress.org service
If Matt allowed them to do as they wanted for years I would say that he was far too lenient! But I would also say that such an epilogue was expected so it is ridiculous that wp-engine did not protect itself before...

 

[Ricsca]

The last time I looked at WordPress ist was GPLv2 licensed software, eg. Matt does not own WordPress (the software, things may very well be different for the trademark and wordpress.org).
So everyone can do whatever GPLv2 allows them to do - including making millions of $ without legally owing Matt anything beyond the requirements of GPLv2.

Might be unpopular thinking, but really - if software developers expect to gain anyting from developing their software (except maybe som praise, appreciation, etc.) they probably should not license their works under open source licenses as that just doesn't work for the general crowd due to human attitudes at grand.

But in fact wp-engine can use wordpress and can also make a fork of its own using the wp code but it cannot pass itself off as wordpress and cannot use the services of wordpress.org

But if you create a company that gives the illusion of being wordpress and you depend 100% on the wordpress.org api I would say that you will have the worst...

 

[Arantor]

WordPress makes it hard for you to avoid using Wordpress.org. Though you will note that WPE (and others) have set up mirrors and alternatives to support their plugins, including their free ones.

Note that Automattic isn’t complaining about users on GoDaddy or Kinsta or other hosting companies using the free resources for free for plug-in updates and core updates to WordPress, that’s fine.

 

[Ricsca]

WordPress makes it hard for you to avoid using Wordpress.org. Though you will note that WPE (and others) have set up mirrors and alternatives to support their plugins, including their free ones.

Note that Automattic isn’t complaining about users on GoDaddy or Kinsta or other hosting companies using the free resources for free for plug-in updates and core updates to WordPress, that’s fine.

If you go to GoDaddy or Kinsta you don't think they have anything to do with wordpress, they sell website hosting and like most hosters they also have plans configured and customized for wordpress since wordpress sites represent almost 50% of the sites online.
Wp-engine looked/seems like a wordpress service exactly like wordpress.com and depended 100% on wordpress.org
If you continue to ignore this FUNDAMENTAL feature, you are acting in bad faith!

 

[Arantor]

If you go to GoDaddy or Kinsta you don't think they have anything to do with wordpress, they sell website hosting and like most hosters they also have plans configured and customized for wordpress since wordpress sites represent almost 50% of the sites online.
Wp-engine looked/seems like a wordpress service exactly like wordpress.com and depended 100% on wordpress.org
If you continue to ignore this FUNDAMENTAL feature, you are acting in bad faith!

Kinsta.com, just now:

Yes, nothing to do with WordPress. Can’t wait for my hosting prices to go up when the “Managed WordPress” trademark is granted too.

And if you look at WP Engine, their wording is all good under most countries’ interpretation of fair use of trademarks.

TBH if Matt wants to pick bones out of “WP Engine is too much like WP”, he should really address the confusion between the free .org offering and the paid .com offering. Especially where he serves up a limited version of WP that is more limited than WPE’s “******* simulacra” or whatever he called it given how the cheapest WP.com plan limits what plugins and themes you can have (as opposed to limiting you having content revision history)

 

[Ricsca]

@Arantor I've explained too many elementary reasons!
If you want to continue to pretend you don't understand, go ahead...

 

[Arantor]

Ah, I see you have returned to your usual pattern of “arguing”, good show.

 

[Ricsca]

There is no pattern, it is clear that wp-engine's policy was to appear to be a WordPress service and not a simple generic hoster so by doing this it put itself in the position of being 100% dependent on Wordpress.org and Matt's moods.
If not you want to understand this thing I don't know how else to explain it to you!

 

[Miri]

Those who went to Wp-engine were led to think that it was a Wordpress service!

I didn't even know it existed. I learned about it from here. And when I first visited it, there was nothing that made me think it was the official WordPress site. It's just a matter of money.

 

[Arantor]

There is no pattern, it is clear that wp-engine's policy was to appear to be a WordPress service and not a simple generic hoster so by doing this it put itself in the position of being 100% dependent on Wordpress.org and Matt's moods.
If not you want to understand this thing I don't know how else to explain it to you!

If it was so bad that they were “pretending”, why was Matt a direct financial investor for several years??? Because they invested in WPE for a few years until selling their stake (bought by the private equity firm that is now so bad)

 

[Taylor J]

Here's hoping XenForo (example, not like they would) or some other software that @Ricsca uses comes to them and asks for a chunk of their ad revenue since that's their way of thinking. I mean you're using their product they created and all to make money, you owe it to them.