Wordpress Drama

[TLDR]

In those cases if it's big guy with money vs little guy with less money, the little guy is screwed if they can't risk paying for the case and then not even getting costs even if they win

If Matt is to be believed, WPE is like similar sized as Automattic.

I think the point that WPE was in part an Automattic venture (until Automattic sold their shares) is really interesting in this case.

Also, the "WP" isn't the point (at least not initially). It is the "WordPress" part. And here is to be determined if they just name the product (which they host) or if it actually is a trademark violation.

 

[MySiteGuy]

That is all correct I believe, however as there is no clear cut Trademark per se violation (ie if a trademark was logo, font and specific colours) , it becomes a potentially very expensive lawsuit relying on "proof of public confusion."

My hunch is they will easily find many online examples over the years of public confusion, including the example on WP Engine's own website. This includes examples where professionals in the field thought WP Engine was the same company. Even now, I've seen posts on Reddit saying things similar to "until now I thought they were WordPress"

In those cases if it's big guy with money vs little guy with less money, the little guy is screwed if they can't risk paying for the case and then not even getting costs even if they win. I've been there (as the little guy) and once the big guy bamboozles you with huge swathes of paperwork that costs you more than you can afford to just pay your lawyer to read them, then you have to just give up.

WP Engine is not a little guy, nor backed by little guys. They have deep enough pockets to hire the best as well. They pull in $750 million per year, and have 1,000 employees. At about $850 million per year for Automattic, this is a pretty even match.

There are other ways out, but WP Engine, based on what Matt says (and frankly I believe this part of his story), negotiated in what at the time appeared to be good faith but WP Engine may have actually been trying to run the clock out.

I hope that isn't quite the case here.

I hope two things:

1. Matt stops doing the awful things he's doing, and reversing course with that, because it's not giving him leverage. It's making him look like a jerk and damaging the WordPress community.

2. Matt prevails with the trademark issue. I think WP Engine has traded off public confusion in a huge way. And their behavior negotiating over the past year lends credit to Matt saying they knew they were violating. Had they really not believed infringement, they'd have told him to go pound sand instead of dragging it along for so long.

 

[MySiteGuy]

If Matt is to be believed, WPE is like similar sized as Automattic.

There's plenty of public data out there about their size, so belief in Matt isn't required.

 

[Mr Lucky]

WP Engine is not a little guy, nor backed by little guys. They have deep enough pockets to hire the best as well.

Ah, I didn't realise that.

 

[RobinHood]

WP Engine are also backed by Silver Lake Capital, who have $100B in assets. Very very deep pockets.

 

[RobinHood]

Some poor sod got banned for the Wordpress Slack for posting this in a ranting channel, lol

 

[Paul B]

Mullenweg should just change his name to Musk and be done with it.

 

[RobinHood]

I hope I don't turn into a narcissistic egoistical maniac when I become a billionaire.

 

[Miri]

If you want to know the true nature of a man, you must give him great power.

-PITTACUS-​

 

[Paul B]

Man who goes to bed with itchy bum, wakes up with smelly finger.

Confucius​

 

[Suzanne O]

Man who goes to bed with itchy bum, wakes up with smelly finger.

Confucius​

Haha

 

[Digital Doctor]

WP Engine are also backed by Silver Lake Capital, who have $100B in assets. Very very deep pockets.

more reason they need to financially support Wordpress.

WP Engine = Cheapskates. They need calling out.

 

[Forsaken]

more reason they need to financially support Wordpress.

WP Engine = Cheapskates. They need calling out.

Automattic has more investors, including BlackRock which is worth more than Silver Lake: https://app.dealroom.co/companies/automattic

Also, as mentioned previously in the thread, contributions are not mandatory to open-source, financially or man hours. Wordpress has a Five for the Future, where entities contribute 5% of their resources (financial or man hours) to Wordpress or Wordpress initiatives, and WPEngine already does so, more than most other entities. This also includes companies like Namecheap, who are not part of Five for the Future, have used the Wordpress trademark similarly and have never publicly contributed to Wordpress.

Whether or not WPEngine is private equity backed or not does not matter; most people could give two ****s about them, and even if people use them, it is mostly ease of use for their clients. People are angry at Matt for his attitude and the actions he has taken, many of which have shown issues with the relationship between Automattic, Wordpress Foundation and Wordpress.org, and specifically with how much control he has and how easily he can abuse that control.

Companies should obviously contribute to projects they profit from, but that also applies to Automattic who only contributes 0.3% of their revenue ($225k) to PHP, and probably less to other projects as well.

This drama isn't about the contributions, but literally about the actions Matt has insisted on continuing to have because he does not get what he wants. WPEngine isn't even a victim here, but they're certainly not the bad guy either.

 

[Forsaken]

How (some) current Automattic employees feel about the current drama: https://www.404media.co/automattic-buyout-offer-wordpress-matt-mullenweg/ (Paywall bypass link: https://archive.is/RZ8T1)

Scott Clark (Pods & Fields API) has been blocked on WP.org and also the official Slack:

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A number of other contributors or plugin authors have seen retaliation from Matt for either criticizing, or choosing not to contribute to projects they were involved in. People get removed for asking for clarifications on the Slack, or questioning the choices or actions he has made recently.

Kellie Peterson plea to Automattic employees about Matt:

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[RobinHood]

How (some) current Automattic employees feel about the current drama

The interception of the teamblind.com emails is wild!

 

[Forsaken]

The interception of the teamblind.com emails is wild!

That's pretty standard for corporations (not Blind specifically, but monitoring emails).

What's crazy to me is the sheer pettiness of only giving 4 hours, and the fact that deciding to leave will include a lifetime ban from Wordpress essentially.

There's some more updates today (crazy that there are updates almost every 12 hours it seems), but don't have time to find links right now.

 

[Forsaken]

Companies should obviously contribute to projects they profit from, but that also applies to Automattic who only contributes 0.3% of their revenue ($225k) to PHP, and probably less to other projects as well.

So, this estimate was incorrect, as the number I used was the amount they had sponsored PHP for, and not sharing their revenue.

There's a post on Reddit that has done a deeper dive into Automattic's contributions, and it is much lower:

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For sponsorships, they sponsor PHP ($225k, as a one-time sponsorship) and MariaDB (~$28000 one-time sponsorship).

WPEngine has filed for an immediate injunction: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.437474/gov.uscourts.cand.437474.17.0.pdf

This is from a Reddit post where a copyright/open-source lawyer weighed in to explain how the injunction would work:

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There is also a quote from WPEngine regarding them hearing about Matt Mullenweg possibly pushing agency partners to stop using WPEngine products (including their plugins).

An interesting post, but I do not agree with everything, but hopefully some of the points come true:

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[Dad.]

You think the WordPress drama is bad? No body has seen the XenForo drama?

The bad guys (that are XenForo or one of their representatives) recently sent a cease and desist letter to some random SMF forum named "xenforohelp.com". Because we don't allow the use of the name "XenForo".

This is categorically untrue and clearly inspired by the recent WordPress events and fabricated by someone (we know exactly who it is, by the way) with an axe to grind. Someone who goes to extraordinary lengths to simultaneously be a part of this community by pretending to be someone else because they are no longer welcome here. Which judging by the number of reports we're getting from members here, is the worst kept secret.

They have "proof". We welcome and look forward to them sharing it. It certainly didn't come from us or one of our representatives. Some people have far too much time on their hands.

For the avoidance of doubt, we have no particular issue with people utilising the name "xenforo" in their URLs, or forum names. The only rule is that it shouldn't be an attempt to mislead or deceive to make it look like it's officially affiliated with us.

Anyway, back to the WordPress stuff. Just thought the parallels of this accusation and the WordPress drama were amusing, given that someone with clearly no imagination dreamt it up after seeing all of this.

Fwiw kier had said years ago that people were not allowed to use xenforo in domains. Imo you guys should keep that rule in place, it absolutely can cause confusion and weight organic results. It's a reasonable limitation and helps protect brand. But if that is a decision that is final, it's interesting at least.

 

[Suzanne O]

Fwiw kier had said years ago that people were not allowed to use xenforo in domains. Imo you guys should keep that rule in place, it absolutely can cause confusion and weight organic results. It's a reasonable limitation and helps protect brand. But if that is a decision that is final, it's interesting at least.

This!

 

[Mr Lucky]

Fwiw kier had said years ago that people were not allowed to use xenforo in domains. I

I somehow doubt he would say that. There is no direct correlation between trademarks and trademark words in a domain name. I could legally start a company making doughnuts and use the trademark XenForo to sell my doughnuts under. I would not be able to use the domain XenForo.com because it's already taken. But I could use xenforodoughnuts.com or XenForo.me.uk.

(NB: It would probably be a different issue regarding the actual artwork of the logo )

However I could not use xenForo.co.uk. Again nothing to do with trademarks but purely because that domain has been registered.

For the avoidance of doubt, we have no particular issue with people utilising the name "xenforo" in their URLs, or forum names. The only rule is that it shouldn't be an attempt to mislead or deceive to make it look like it's officially affiliated with us.

What Chris said here makes total sense.

XenForo ltd is not in a position to either "allow" or "disallow" the word in a domain. What I mean by that is they cannot stop you starting a company called xenforosoftware and from registering XenForosoftware.com as the domain is available. However if your company XenForosoftware is developing and selling software then I'm sure they would successfully sue your pants off.

So rather than thinking of xenForo "allowing" or "disallowing" it's better to think that of it as them not suing you for selling XenForo branded doughnuts (@Chris D may be able to confirm that or not), but also that they disallow you from selling xenForo branded software in that your trademark within the same business class is confusing.

I think there may be a great area with a domain such as xenForosupport.com. In that case I think the word "allow" may mean that they are happy not to sue you as long as your site does not make it seem that it is an official xenForo site. Obviously you may want to use the actual or adapted logo and in that case I would definitely ask for permission and get it in writing.

I think there are often issues with game sites (forums) that obviously want to use the game's logo and character illustrations. Often the game company allows it if they deem it is helping but, but they could at any time sue or(more likely) issue a cease and desist and bang goes your Game forum.