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This needs attention....

Discussion in 'General XenForo Discussion and Feedback' started by Russ, Sep 28, 2012.

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  1. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

    These blatant rips need attention. I've reported these resources with no apparent course of action so now I'm taking this a bit more public.

    In regards to:


    Jake chooses not to be involved.
    Slavik says he's been gone past couple days.
    Lawrence states he misunderstood what was going on.

    Adam has still re-posted this. XenForo is literally allowing Warez on the XF.com to be posted because the style he's using is an outdated version iSkin(1.1.1) the only one available on the most popular XF warez website.

    I'm at the point where I'm about to just remove my resources and post them on an upcoming project I have. Some may ask why I'm so concerned over this... I'm not losing sleep by any means but I'm getting ready to launch a site that will be focusing on delivering premium styles and that last thing I want to see is Adam Howard releasing a new free style( a modified version of ours). At this point XF has made it clear if he does this it will be perfectly fine to keep the style on XF.com resource.

    The fact that he's doing this, 3 styles in a row is absurd...
    The fact that this thread will more than likely be locked in a short time is absurd...

    The exact person he gives credit to for doing the work on the style posted this:

    If you ask me that's the biggest red flag... even if Adam did "let this person do all the work" the fact the person who "did all the work" admitted that it should be removed instantly.

    Lastly referencing again... this post compares the styles side by side(top by bottom ;p)
    and all I did was change the background on the official iSkin style from XenFocus. That's it.



    Again I tried to handle this through the report system... but apparently it needs a bit more awareness, as we all know the contact form will go to the exact people who have already seen the reports.
    yavuz and Sheldon like this.
  2. Sheldon

    Sheldon Well-Known Member

    Shared common useage code will be the defense.

    It truly is a shame this is allowed to continue on. I'll just take an old copy I have of xenfracture, erase the name from everything, call it stewfracture and release it like Adam Howard did. Makes sense, eh? :rolleyes:

    Allowing those themes to stay shows the real state of this place now.
    SneakyDave and Russ like this.
  3. jadmperry

    jadmperry Well-Known Member

    I think it certainly is a fair concern. No one should be ripping off other people's work without permission or agreement. Has there been any response to the claim from Adam? I saw a release and then it was deleted...is that the end of it?
  4. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

    He initially released it... then I believe Lawrence deleted it because he misunderstood the situation.

    Then Adam reposted it, he states it "shared common usage code" and he lives by that defense.
  5. iTuN3r

    iTuN3r Well-Known Member

    Oh Well understand this way they are letting Pirated stuffs get into this business now guess what they don't give jack about others i guess.
  6. Adam Howard

    Adam Howard Well-Known Member

    My ignore list is getting larger.

    someone had to actually point out this thread.

    I'll say this 1 time. Then I don't think I'll be able to find this thread (it's hidden because of whomever posted it).

    Definitive answer can be found here

    Liking that answer is not required and ZERO code has been found.


    Attached Files:

  7. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

    I love his first 2 points and XF does nothing
    Sylar and Steve F like this.
  8. Sadik B

    Sadik B Well-Known Member

    Amazing... Adam, even if you did not rip it, someone did. And no decent person would be redistributing ripped styles. I just paid a coder $$ because even if he distributes his addons free, he asks people to pay for commercial sites. The coder distributes his work on good faith and so we pay him because we know he should benefit from his work. Even if you had nothing to do with ripping someone's style, the fact remains that if people use this free skin, the original author who created this is losing payment for his hard work. That just is not fair. Just say that you made an honest mistake trusting someone and remove the resources.
  9. Adam Howard

    Adam Howard Well-Known Member

    Let's get to the root of the argument...

    I or anyone else could have designed and released this skin. There is ZERO rip code. NONE.

    The trolls who have been coming down on me today..... Could NOT find ANY stolen code. ZERO.

    A few similar colors and maybe spacing, isn't (not) good enough.

    Just so we're clear .... A few images will not count as a valid argument. If I can find them in a few free image packages

    http://p.yusukekamiyamane.com/ and http://famfamfam.com/lab/icons/silk/

    ^^ For example ... It's fair game.

    Please point to me what is stolen. The two are different.
  10. Sadik B

    Sadik B Well-Known Member

    Well, I do have a license for iskin you know. I can find same code if I wanted to. Do you really want me to go there?
  11. Adam Howard

    Adam Howard Well-Known Member

    Please do.

    I do not have a copy of iSkin to compare it to, but a few people did and they even admitted there was no stolen code in it. This is why it was re-released.

    Please keep in mind that "shared common usage code" isn't a valid argument either.

    It is worth noting that I, not the staff, originally pulled the skin because of the original accusation.

    When nothing could be found, even by respected members of XenForo... Of course it was re-released.
  12. Sadik B

    Sadik B Well-Known Member

    Fair enough. I will take a look and let you know if code matches.
  13. Adam Howard

    Adam Howard Well-Known Member

    Thank you kindly.

    You will be the 15th person to do so (assuming I've not lost track). :)
  14. jadmperry

    jadmperry Well-Known Member

    Still can't really tell what is going on here. I read the Xen Peace thread and still have some questions. (As an aside, the irony of "Xen Peace" not being a peaceful release is epic).

    From what I can tell, the accusation is that this is a "rip" of Xenfocus/Ehren's style. Has Ehren posted any concerns with this?

    Without going too deep, and giving a (very abbreviated) view, I think this plays out in two potential arenas:
    1. Copyright/IP law
    2. Good business practices/accepted conduct
    As for the Copyright/IP law issue, this is horribly complicated without knowing all of the facts. Adam has stated that there is, more of less, "zero" code copied. There may be some "look and feel" issues, but I really would not want to go too far into the analysis without knowing more. A further issue, though, is that- if I understand this correctly, this was a "free" style from Adam. If there were/are Copyright issues, this may or may not be important (mainly from a potential damages point of view). I think it is relevant that iSkin was a $30 paid style from Ehren. If I have time, I may post more on my thoughts on this.
    As for the good business practices, this may be the bigger (or more applicable) issue. I would want to know more about what is generally considered "original work." As for the the common code usage, it seems that there are actually two issues, the code itself and the images used (which, Adam pointed out- if correctly- were from open source images). The images by themselves are probably not problematic, but if it is a direct copy of Ehren's work, without substantially changing things, then this may be a problem (both business practices-wise, and from a Copyright/IP perspective).
    But, making this much harder to get to the bottom of is that there seems to be several concerns here. Did Adam do wrong? If so, did XF do wrong by allowing it? There are legal answers to these questions, however, given the difficulty and costs with litigating and lack of a "big pot of money" to make anyone fight these things out, the likely bigger issue is what Russ alluded to- is XF a place or platform where developers (be it coders or style/graphics folks) can make money and have their products "protected." I think it is a fair question...though, I am not sure how pervasive a problem this might be. Community posts, reputation, etc., may resolve this (not to be a Pollyana...goodwill, intentions, and whatnot aside, some people will take free/pirated copies of work over paying for them; but, if a product is good, supported, developed and their is a good reputation behind the original "creator" most people will use the paid product. Not to say this won't cut into profits, but if it were otherwise, all the ripped copies of MS Office, any movie you can think of, Adobe, or whatever, would run the legitimate companies out of business).
    If I were to dig into this issue further (and no one asked me to, I am just giving my 2 cents, taking a break from my actual job and "writing"/thinking out loud) I would want to know from Adam if he spent time changing the original work (he stated it was a pirated copy, I think, and if I understood correctly- this may not matter though from the Copyright law issues), and if so, how.
    I don't know that anyone, especially Adam, would care to spend the time to respond to really get to the bottom of this. Like I said, I think it is a viable issue/question. However, it seems on its face to be at least slightly more complicated than Adam did wrong, or XF allows piracy.
  15. jadmperry

    jadmperry Well-Known Member

    Sorry, I may have posted the above while being ninja'd by later posts.

    I have a generally good opinion of Adam's reputation here, so I am not at all quick to believe that he has done wrong. That said, I do think code comparison is helpful. Interested to see what shakes out. (At the same time, I do think Russ raises valid issues with having assurances that original work will not be allowed to be pirated/downloaded here...all I can say is, Support your Developers, People!).
    Adam Howard likes this.
  16. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

    Adams reputation fell when he got caught originally copying the social style, duplicate code was found there. Now we have this style where he claims he did not do it and someone gave it to him and that exact person said it was a rip, I'm not seeing what the big deal here is other than the resource is still up.
    SneakyDave, Martyn and Sylar like this.
  17. jadmperry

    jadmperry Well-Known Member

    Did Ehren say that? I am not trying to defend Adam, per se, I am wondering what the facts are.

    Did he admit to copying the "social style"? Is there a link?
  18. Adam Howard

    Adam Howard Well-Known Member

    The quick summery in reply to your post (paragraphs please in the future if you do not mind).....

    A member here by the name of, miuiru

    Contacted me and said he / she wanted to help release a new skin. Which was fine with me. I was trying to develop a new one anyway. I happily submitted what I had so he / she could review it. What I got back was an almost completed skin. Which I thought was very good of him / her.

    Upon releasing that skin, miuiru, the very person who help me. Suddenly trolled the releasing claiming it was a rip. How is that for a mind f*ck ? ! ? ! :eek::confused:

    Assuming that I had been successfully trolled, I pulled the release.

    Upon further review it was discovered that the skin was actually developed by a pirate on another site. I have zero love for people who would pirate XenForo. I think we can all agree with that concept. Fair enough?

    The skin was looked over and even though it was released on a pirate site... Was still viewed as original work. Surprised? I sure was and so was everyone else who reviewed it.

    Feeling justified in sticking it to pirates, who rightfully do owe everyone who owns a valid copy of XenForo; the skin remained. It's not like they, themselves, could ever cry foul.

    The accusation was that it was a rip of iSkin. Upon further review between comparing this release with iSkin... No valid stolen content could be found.

    Had there been any .... We'd not be having this "debate" and the skin would have stayed in the trash can.
  19. Steve F

    Steve F Well-Known Member

    SneakyDave and Russ like this.
  20. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

    We contacted Ehren already, awaiting response. Is this my directly my argument? Not directly but as stated before, I see it clearly as a rip, left every image in tact minus a few. He even left Xen Focus's page and link node icon in, which I would love to see where he found those on the internet.

    Adam doesn't admit to any wrong doing, he's stubborn, or has an extreme case of denial.

    This is a post referenced to that thread:

    It's a CSS file Adam did not change minus a few lines from the original Social skin, however said it was all his. His defense I believe was he "google'd it".

    Just because I've done a few good deeds on here gives me NO right to do what he's done.
    SneakyDave and Sheldon like this.
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