This needs attention....

[Adam Howard]

Did Ehren say that? I am not trying to defend Adam, per se, I am wondering what the facts are.

Did he admit to copying the "social style"? Is there a link?

Let's not start that debate again ... Shall we. In fact it is because of that accusation that when miuiru offered to help... I jumped at the chance.

Here is a screen shot of Social. And a screen shot of my skin (title Socially Uncensored, after the name of my site)

There was some "shared common usage code". Perfectly valid and acceptable.

And if you look at the two side by side, you can clearly see there is a big world of difference.

 

[Sadik B]

Ok, quickly went through both the codes. First thing I must admit is that it is indeed ripped from iskin. But... whoever did the rip knew very well what he / she was doing and is quite good at it.

When investigating cases like these, the best place to start are the unique features. What is unique about iskin is that it's navbar navlink is very different from almost all other Xenforo skins. The navbar does not extend to the entire width of the container, instead only the navlinks show while the page background shows up to the right. This is achieved in iskin by applying another css class primary_nav on navTabs

From iskin, The Html is

<div class="navTabs primary_nav">

And the Css is

.navTabs.primary_nav{
    float: left;
}

The exact same CSS is present in Blue Angel Style released by Adam,

On line 2883 Blue angel xml we have

.navTabs.primary_nav{
float: left;
}

Now interestingly primary_nav CSS class is not used on the div element in Blue Angel, instead the float is pushed to the child element, publicTabs, achieving the same outcome. Also primary_nav is a CSS class NOT present in default Xenforo style (I checked), so it couldn't have come from exporting default Xenforo.

This is just one example. I can find many others if I wanted to. My conclusion is that whoever did Blue Angel, started with the CSS file of iskin (not the XML, but the CSS available from browser) and then played around with it ensuring that some things are changed here and there.

 

[Russ]

It's ok everyone, a pirate uniquely designed this style, even though he used every image from XenFocus, including the CUSTOM page and link node icons.

It's OK

 

[Russ]

snip

Nice find, but Shared common usage code! It's a div he google'd the name.

 

[jadmperry]

Were there substantial changes to the code? That is, "derivative work" (may be another way of saying "shared common usage code") is generally fine. The real question is whether the style was substantially changed or was it essentially copied.

I have to admit that I still am up in the air on this... though, Adam did confuse me somewhat as to whether he actually did the work on this (or whether he changed what he was given), or whether it was this member miuiru, or the original "pirate."

I can't tell or understand if Adam is saying that the pirate ripped it, so he felt alright in releasing it because what he got was from a pirate?

Or if he is saying that he really didn't look too much into it because is was a pirate?

Or that he took what he got, changed it around and then released it.

To me, a big factor is Ehren's concern about this- and if he has one, whether it is supported.

 

[jadmperry]

Reading around a bit, the .png file seems to be problematic. Not sure how this could be "shared common usage code."

 

[Adam Howard]

The skins in question have been removed.

 

[Steve F]

Reading around a bit, the .png file seems to be problematic. Not sure how this could be "shared common usage code."

Oh it is if Adam can you link you to a free pack of icons randomly found on the internet with 1000 icons in the folder that he knows people are not going to dig through.

Were there substantial changes to the code? That is, "derivative work" (may be another way of saying "shared common usage code") is generally fine. The real question is whether the style was substantially changed or was it essentially copied.

I have to admit that I still am up in the air on this... though, Adam did confuse me somewhat as to whether he actually did the work on this (or whether he changed what he was given), or whether it was this member miuiru, or the original "pirate."

I can't tell or understand if Adam is saying that the pirate ripped it, so he felt alright in releasing it because what he got was from a pirate?

Or if he is saying that he really didn't look too much into it because is was a pirate?

Or that he took what he got, changed it around and then released it.

To me, a big factor is Ehren's concern about this- and if he has one, whether it is supported.

Most likely we may not see a comment from anyone at XenFocus...

The images ARE protected under XenFocus copyright correct? It is THEIR property correct? They created it..

So why does it take an exhausting amount of proof to show people that this was a rip?

 

[Russ]

Last bit, and I'm glad this is settled for now*

I think most people who follow my posts know I don't discourage anyone from contributing things for the community, but I definitely frown upon it when it's done in a terrible taste.

 

[Adam Howard]

Were there substantial changes to the code? That is, "derivative work" (may be another way of saying "shared common usage code") is generally fine. The real question is whether the style was substantially changed or was it essentially copied.

I have to admit that I still am up in the air on this... though, Adam did confuse me somewhat as to whether he actually did the work on this (or whether he changed what he was given), or whether it was this member miuiru, or the original "pirate."

I can't tell or understand if Adam is saying that the pirate ripped it, so he felt alright in releasing it because what he got was from a pirate?

Or if he is saying that he really didn't look too much into it because is was a pirate?

Or that he took what he got, changed it around and then released it.

To me, a big factor is Ehren's concern about this- and if he has one, whether it is supported.

In this exact order....

I started some work on my own design.

miuiru asked me if I could use some help designing a skin.

I passed on to what I already had and miuiru didn't just submit back some cool tips on advice or maybe a tweak or two, but rather the majority of the work done. Claimed it was a "thank you" for the help I did for others.

At this time I made a few small tweaks and accepted it for what it was claimed to be.

Released the skin in good faith

miuiru wasted no time to troll the release (claiming it was a rip).

Assuming this action was not logical and I had been successfully trolled.... I pulled the skin.

I pulled the skin.

Reviewed it and others who obtained a copy before I pulled it reviewed it.

Was told or lead to believe that there were some similarities, but that it was not a rip

Re-released on this ideology

Was point out that it was not originally miuiru work, but rather he / she got it from a pirate

Further reviewed code and no one could find any valid code to suggest it was anyone else's work ( until now )

ZERO respect for pirates and so justified in "reverse pirating" (pirate the pirate)

Ignored usual trolls.... What do you expect? Do you take the people who troll you seriously?

No valid proof of accusation were given ( until now )

Proof given now ( just now )

DELETED content.

 

[jadmperry]

Most likely we may not see a comment from anyone at XenFocus...

The images ARE protected under XenFocus copyright correct? It is THEIR property correct? They created it..

So why does it take an exhausting amount of proof to show people that this was a rip?

I don't know...did they create the images or commission them with assignment of copyrights? Generally, copyrights come into existence on creation of the original work. However, you can register the work and that fixes additional rights, including statutory damages. But, if they did create them, then I would say yes.

If by "people" you mean me, well, I don't know a thing about the original work, what Adam released and anything about the files in question. I asked about Ehren/Xenfocus because it would seem to me that he/they would know more about their own work than anyone, and if they have no problem with it, it would seem to set the issue to rest. That said, if someone says that someone else ripped something, to convince me, I need to know what actually happened. Not that my opinion matters much...the community/buyers, etc., overall is likely what matters. But, by the same token, personally, I won't just take a claim at face value. The facts matter.

It is possible to take something and change it enough to make the new thing original. I have no idea if that is what happened here or not. However, to a degree, Adam taking down the styles may make the issue less important (not to the "original sin," if there was one...but by ameliorating Russ' concern with the styles being available). Not saying whether this means he thinks he did wrong or not. Just that the thread itself seems to have caused a change.

 

[ManagerJosh]

sigh.... I love how the rules of the internet goes by "it's guilty until proven innocent"

 

[jadmperry]

In this exact order....

I started some work on my own design.

miuiru asked me if I could use some help designing a skin.

I passed on to what I already had and miuiru didn't just submit back some cool tips on advice or maybe a tweak or two, but rather the majority of the work done. Claimed it was a "thank you" for the help I did for others.

At this time I made a few small tweaks and accepted it for what it was claimed to be.

Released the skin in good faith

miuiru wasted no time to troll the release (claiming it was a rip).

Assuming this action was not logical and I had been successfully trolled.... I pulled the skin.

I pulled the skin.

Reviewed it and others who obtained a copy before I pulled it reviewed it.

Was told or lead to believe that there were some similarities, but that it was not a rip

Re-released on this ideology

Was point out that it was not originally miuiru work, but rather he / she got it from a pirate

Further reviewed code and no one could find any valid code to suggest it was anyone else's work ( until now )

ZERO respect for pirates and so justified in "reverse pirating" (pirate the pirate)

Ignored usual trolls.... What do you expect? Do you take the people who troll you seriously?

No valid proof of accusation were given ( until now )

Proof given now ( just now )

DELETED content.

Like I stated before, I don't have a dog in this fight. Assuming all you stated was true (I don't doubt it), seems to me you relied on miuiru for his/her statements that the work was original. You released in good faith. No problem to that point.

Still sketchy on the "pirating the pirate" idea. Sure, it does not take crediting the pirate, but the original author...that is a different matter.

Making things look better, in my view, though, is that you pulled the styles. I think that was a good move.

Ignored usual trolls.... What do you expect? Do you take the people who troll you seriously?

Nothing much from me on this...trolls generally suck (and make sucky sites, too). I wasn't calling you out on this, just offering my thoughts.

Maybe this tarnishes your reputation. Because you pulled the styles, and given your explanation, while my sense is that this was not an ideal situation and was probably at least a gray area, I don't think less of you and think your decision should be credited. All you can do is keep on contributing, helping people, and releasing good things. If you do that, my hunch is that all will be good. Maybe I am wrong. Based on your contributions and help before, I give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Adam Howard]

sigh.... I love how the rules of the internet goes by "it's guilty until proven innocent"

^ This is my thoughts exactly.

I have a lot of people here on ignore, because of the negative mob mentality. So I would think maybe more than 1/2 the people in this thread.... I can not see or read their reply. Because honestly I have no interest in what they say. And the few times I see a quote or two, I just dismiss it.

That is what most people do when you've been trolled. You completely ignore the troll. And thankfully XenForo has an ignore button and you don't even see the things being said.

But as you said and I fully agree... On the internet there is often this negative view-point of "guilty until proven innocent". And it is those people whom I make a good effort to ignore and pay not attention to.

Seriously and realistic... Who here really ever listens to a troll and takes them seriously? I sure do not.

The deciding factor was this.



This was good enough for me and I would hope in good faith it is good enough for everyone else to accept.

A wrong was indeed done by those involved. I was badly misinformed and also trolled. And clearly even some other innocent individuals also ignored the trolls (as I did) and in reviewing the code, couldn't find anything themselves either.

However, I believe the develop would know his / her own work. And that is good enough for me.

 

[Sadik B]

The skins in question have been removed.

I have to say that I have found many of your posts and what you share here quite helpful. I assume that what you state is true and you received content from someone in good faith and didn't know their sources weren't legit.

Overall... I think things like these shouldn't be so public. I assume this was first taken up through reports. This should have been resolved through Private Conversations between the parties involved.

 

[jadmperry]

Seems like a fair and good resolution. Adam did the right thing after checking with Ehren. I applaud him for having the guts to acknowledge all of this and, like I said before, he is very helpful to people (at least in my opinion).

 

[Adam Howard]

I have to say that I have found many of your posts and what you share here quite helpful. I assume that what you state is true and you received content from someone in good faith and didn't know their sources weren't legit.

Overall... I think things like these shouldn't be so public. I assume this was first taken up through reports. This should have been resolved through Private Conversations between the parties involved.

I agree this should have been handled a little better, but there are some people here who fully do enjoy "jumping" at the opportunity in causing a larger than life public issue. They just enjoy drama.

But there are some things that should sometimes be made public. For example and out of respect....



While I have not told Ehren this... I would like to make some right out of this.

1) I will be purchasing several skins directly from him (for my own personal use)

2) I will also be adding a permanent link (advertisement) on my site (without any referral credit)

This is the very least I can do out of respect and for whatever unknowing and unwilling of my part.

 

[Steve F]

Geez, wish I could have attained the same respect when I asked you to politely to abide by my feelings about sharing my work..Especially since you had been using my skin for nearly 2 years on your site...But all I got was some flak and eventually made out to be the bad guy, as is with this thread and anyone that stands up for this crap.

Adam, not sure if you just overlooked it or what it may be but that is clearly the Social skin underneath with node icons and templates. Just looking at the EXTRA.css tells me its my skin underneath. I wouldn't have a issue with it at all if permission was given and no credit/footer links were added, as Social is link free and my resource states not to redistribute the package in any way shape or form.

All you did was change file paths to fit your needs, please either A) remove the resource or B) leave it and remove the credit links and donation requirement to remove footer link.

 

[oman]

Lol... I am on your ignore list. Doesn't bother me....

 

[Shelley]

I'm surprised there isn't a vb5 screenshot in this thread.