Implemented The position of key buttons next to the breadcrumb

[Grover]

I am gonna to have a break from XenForo in the time to come. I just want to put the following in the limelight, because I feel it is or will become an issue when using XenForo. I think XenForo is (almost) perfect when it comes to the UI/UX, but I feel this could need some attention before XF becomes Gold.

I am talking about the position of key buttons like [Post New Thread] or [Search Threads and Posts] next to the breadcrumb. I believe this is a fundamentally wrong position and I will show why I think that.

[Search Threads and Posts]
First, there is this example about the [Search Threads and Posts]-button:
http://xenforo.com/community/thread...ics.2082/#post-30259

The [Search Threads and Posts] button there is more or less unrecognizable as a button that should be pressed to get more search options. It gets overlooked, very understandably, by endusers. To prevent it from being overlooked, it has to be put more into the viewpoint of the enduser. And that means... as close to the information-area as possible, there where the eye-focus of the enduser is. Meaning: in the center of the screen (right above the search input fields for example), not somewhere in a corner where it is not visible/clear/intuitive enough.

[Post New Thread]
The same problem occurs when users need to post a New Thread, as pointed out by Shanj in the following discussion where a visual example is posted in:
http://xenforo.com/community/thread...ead.2538/#post-41403

Needless to say that this can become obviously problematic. I don't know how XenForo displays multiple subforums underneath each other, but I could imagine it would be like this:

I believe a good UI should make it as easy/intuitive as possible to post a thread. Posting threads is THE BASIS of forums in the first place. That's why I find it a bit remarkable that XenForo puts the KEY button for this in a really counter-productive and non-intuitive position. A button with such an importance should be placed right there where the focus of the endusers-eye is, the moment he/she wants to post a new thread. And that is as near to the existing threadtitles as possible.

Those are my last constructive suggestions I will put out for a while (XF is near perfect in it's UI/UX for me). Hopefully M&K can share a part of this vision and re-think a bit the positions of those key buttons. I believe it will make XF better.

Keep up the good work (developers + community) and see you again after XF Gold's release!

Grover.

Please do [like] this first posting if you think it is a good feature suggestion for XenForo

 

[Jeffin]

edit: the screen-shot above should have the blue Post new thread button.

 

[Grover]

A few questions:
1. Do we have scientific data supporting the statement that having the button at the top is worse than having it further on the page?

Answer to question 1: Do we really need scientific data if this real-life example (!) so clearly shows what is wrong with the button all the way at the top next to the breadcrumb? It is a bit puzzling to me that people still would prefer something like that instead of choosing for the obvious benefits of putting the button closer to the threadtitles (being it to the left or the right of the screen), away from the breadcrumb.

2. Assuming the answer is yes, do people expect the button further on the page because they are used to vBulletin, or because they can naturally find it easier there?

Do you think it is natural to browse the threadtitles and then being forced to leave that context and click the browser scrollbar for seconds (if you have lots of subforums) to discover the [Post New Thread]-button all the way up there next to the breadcrumb? I am happy there is still the [Post New Thread] at the bottom, because at least that is more or less close to the threadtitles (where it should be).

Ofcourse it is more intuitive/natural/easier for the end user to put action buttons there where the context is. I have explained this before here and here when it came to the [Search Thread and Posts]-button and it was explained later that placement was a temporarily solution indeed. The current implementation with [tabs] right there where the focus of the enduser is, is -as everyone can see I hope- so much better.

So, since the [Post New Thread] is the only button left there (in the frontend interface of XenForo) next to the breadcrumb, it is time to also repositioning that . Because the same arguments also apply to that button: it needs to be as close to the context/focus of the enduser as possible. Surely one will understand that having to browse 50 centimeters up (when you have lots of subforums) to visit the breadcrumb is not in line with that?

Let's say people are used to vB, and this is the reason we should place the button directly above the thread list, are we then creating a new product with the best possible UI or are we just cloning vBulletin?

Why do some people keep coming back to this argument of comparing XenForo to vBulletin? No-one is doing this in this lively discussion... except I would say the people who keep stating this argument . Look, if it matters, I believe Internet Brands' vBulletin 4 UI/UX is horrendous. That is one of the reasons why I am such a big fan of XenForo. The UI/UX of XenForo is simply near-perfect. As far as I am concerned XenForo has already created the best possible UI of any forum product out there on the market. Why people would want to hold onto this out of 'fear' of loosing 'uniqueness' or 'cloning'... are arguments I fail to understand, I'm afraid.

What we need to know is: where do people look when they never visited a forum before, again we have no data for this AFAIK. It could very well be the case that they look for this button at the top of the page, next to their trusty breadcrumb. These kind of things require investigation, not speculation.

I am sure there is thought/insight/investigation put into the fact that the page-nav is on the left and the [Post New Thread] is on the right in XenForo (oh, dear... they cloned Invision Power Board! Just joking ) for example. I personally prefer the [Post New Thread] on the left, but I can live with it being on the right. XenForo started out with having buttons next to the breadcrumb. However, in the current state of XenForo most of those buttons have been removed, thanks to customer feedback in this discussion. So for me the argument '...It could very well be the case that they look for this button at the top of the page, next to their trusty breadcrumb' doesn't stand anymore. Because the breadcrumb is not the 'trusty' place anymore where XenForo endusers could consistently find action-buttons. So, not only for the obvious usability reasons, but also for consistency reasons this [Post New Reply] button has no place there anymore, as explained and argumented in depth in this lovely discussion.

Hopefully we can see at least example 4 (which is Brogan's idea) implemented in Gold.

And now I am off to the snow! Brrrrr....

 

[dutchbb]

You did not see my point the way I meant it. I never meant 'XF should do something different than vBulletin, because vB are doing it'. I meant: 'XF should not do what vBulletin does, simply because some people are used to that'.

Again, it remains uncertain what the best location is. Your view is that having this navigation besides the breadcrumb is a bad idea, you based that hypothesis on screenshots of (extreme and rare) examples, assuming people will not see and find this clearly visible button. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just not sure you are right.

We have made our points, let's see what else can be brought to the discussion

 

[Paul B]

With regards to the example showing a huge amount of sub-forums, I would say that is not great for UX anyway as members have to scroll a long way to reach the forum content.

Far better to edit the template and place them below the thread list, like this: http://xenforo.com/community/threads/how-to-move-sub-forums-to-below-the-thread-list.8366/

In which case the button/breadcrumb issue is eliminated

 

[Grover]

You did not see my point the way I meant it. I never meant 'XF should do something different than vBulletin, because vB are doing it'. I meant: 'XF should not do what vBulletin does, simply because some people are used to that'.

I got your point the first time , so my answer is still the same .

Again, it remains uncertain what the best location is. Your view is that having this navigation besides the breadcrumb is a bad idea, you based that hypothesis on screenshots of (extreme and rare) examples...

I certainly agree this example is extreme indeed. However, (my own vBulletin 3.8 powered) platform consist of lots of subforums as well, especially in our Staff Forums. And maybe not so extreme, but my situation resembles this first mockup actually and I think more platforms out there will have situations where they have 4 or more subforums. And even with 4 subforums the position of the upper [Post New Thread] is... well you know my point by now .

....assuming people will not see and find this clearly visible button. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just not sure you are right.

Well... I certainly agree with you that I also believe that in most cases people will see and find the button. Sure. But that is not quite the point. The point is: is it the most convenient position to put a button?

It's up to the developers to eventually offer us what they think is the best thing to do. They already (certainly by now! ) are aware of our arguments, so further discussion amongst each other only seems to happen for our own 'pleasure' . Without kidding... I am in the process of wanting to transfer one (very big) vBulletin 3.8 powered website to XenForo and using a second license to create a new platform. Especially for transferring this first site (with lots of subforums) I would like the change to be as easy as possible. I believe the suggestion of repositioning the [Post New Thread] will add to this ease of change.

Let's wait and see...

 

[dutchbb]

I got your point the first time , so my answer is still the same .

Well I got that impression from your reply, so just making sure we understand each other here

I certainly agree this example is extreme indeed. However, (my own vBulletin 3.8 powered) platform consist of lots of subforums as well, especially in our Staff Forums. And maybe not so extreme, but my situation resembles this first mockup actually and I think more platforms out there will have situations where they have 4 or more subforums. And even with 4 subforums the position of the upper [Post New Thread] is... well you know my point by now .



Well... I certainly agree with you that I also believe that in most cases people will see and find the button. Sure. But that is not quite the point. The point is: is it the most convenient position to put a button?

It's up to the developers to eventually offer us what they think is the best thing to do. They already (certainly by now! ) are aware of our arguments, so further discussion amongst each other only seems to happen for our own 'pleasure' . Without kidding... I am in the process of wanting to transfer one (very big) vBulletin 3.8 powered website to XenForo and using a second license to create a new platform. Especially for transferring this first site (with lots of subforums) I would like the change to be as easy as possible. I believe the suggestion of repositioning the [Post New Thread] will add to this ease of change.

Let's wait and see...

Assuming that the location doesn't matter, or even that the location above the list of threads is better, you still have to deal with the clutter that is created in the examples you and Brogan have posted. I'm sorry, but having 3-4 links and a button in one row does not look good. Other examples posted in this thread, including my own suffer the same problem. I'm sure this was an argument to place it besides the breadcrumb in the first place. That's just another reason why we have this discussion and why the devs have kept it the way it is until now. I'll leave it here and see what others have to say.

 

[Digital Doctor]

As I said previously, if it was to be moved I feel it would be better off next to the other links on the right.
Both aesthetically and functionally.
View attachment 7930

 

[Paul B]

Putting links/buttons at the end of text which can vary in length isn't a good idea.
A good UI/UX should dictate that buttons, links, etc. should always be in the same place on every page view.

I use "Mark this forum read" a lot. I don't want to have to go looking for it.

 

[Kier]

Of course we wouldn't have this problem at all if we'd stuck with my original design that placed the sub-forums below the thread list.

IMHO, the list of sub-forums is vastly less important than the list of threads directly contained by the current forum.

 

[Kier]

A solution has been implemented here. Let's see what people think.

 

[dutchbb]

This may work. It could even be an ACP option 'if more than X sub-forums, show new thread button below sub-forums'.

 

[Paul B]

I have to say I'm not a fan of this implementation for 2 reasons:
1. It introduces more vertical space with just 1 small button on the row
2. Having the button appear at different places on the page based on whether there are sub-forums or not isn't ideal

Still, it's a simple template edit to put it back to the breadcrumb so I'm not going to worry about it.

 

[dutchbb]

Agree with Brogan. And maybe the people with a long list of sub-forums should do the template edit, most forums do not have that many sub-forums. I'm still not convinced this needs to be changed at all, how many people have really complained about the current location?

 

[Grover]

Of course we wouldn't have this problem at all if we'd stuck with my original design that placed the sub-forums below the thread list.

Yes, I was thinking the same when I read Brogan's explanation here, that putting the subforums on top apparently resulted in the breadcrumb-button not having an ideal position anymore indeed. But that got me thinking/wondering if -with such a template modification that puts the subforums below the threadlist- the subforums would be overlooked. And then I remembered the earlier discussions about it. I do understand that the subforums will get overlooked in that way, but at the same time I also agree with:

IMHO, the list of sub-forums is vastly less important than the list of threads directly contained by the current forum.

Hmm... what to do indeed?

 

[Jeffin]

Of course we wouldn't have this problem at all if we'd stuck with my original design that placed the sub-forums below the thread list.

IMHO, the list of sub-forums is vastly less important than the list of threads directly contained by the current forum.

You are a genius Kier!

 

[Grover]

I have to say I'm not a fan of this implementation for 2 reasons:
1. It introduces more vertical space with just 1 small button on the row
2. Having the button appear at different places on the page based on whether there are sub-forums or not isn't ideal

I agree with Brogan, in line with what he said before:

A good UI/UX should dictate that buttons, links, etc. should always be in the same place on every page view.

Buttons should always have the same position indeed, so I also feel the new alternative is -although creative!- not that ideal:

Location 1:


... and now it jumps down to Location 2:


---
Actually, seeing the example of Location 2: why not choose this one as the default? I think it might look/work good anyway this way when there are no subforums. The only 'downside' would then be that it 'introduces more vertical space with just 1 small button on the row' -like Brogan stated-, but only when there are subforum. But otherwise it would be a fine solution? Because these are the benefits of having Location2 as default:

• We can get rid of the button next to the breadcrumb: XenForo doesn't use buttons next to the breadcrumb anymore, only in this single instance with [Post New Thread], so getting rid of it will make the UI more consistent,
• We have a gain in usability, because having subforums on top will not result in the problematic breadcrumb-positioning of [Post New Thread] anymore,
• The new position will be vertically aligned/in line with the [Post New Thread] button at the bottom of the threadlist (already the same with the breadcrumb position ofcourse)

 

[Paul B]

Optimise for the common case would be my suggestion

 

[Peggy]

I don't get it.

 

[Jeffin]

How about this?

 

[Grover]

Actually, seeing the example of Location 2: why not choose this one as the default? I think it might look/work good anyway this way when there are no subforums...

I decided to create a mockup to see how it looks:



Well... pretty good I would say!

Of all the alternatives (I added this one now as Example 5 there for comparison pleasure... this is turning out to be an in-depth documentary/investigation by now! ) we thought of this one looks pretty good, if not the best. But it's also a personal taste ofcourse. Obviously, the button next to the breadcrumb is the most aesthetically pleasing actually. But due to the subforums now visible at the top (instead of the bottom) that position is problematic.