Is there a CMS planned?

[Shamil]

Indeed that is a perfect example of a CMS ... A Content management system, where the content can be simply created and edited, and it independent of the style etc...

Exactly It doesn't have to be fancy, all it has to do is just manage the content

 

[Biker]

While there may very well be one in the future, right now the guys are concentrating on the forum software.
I highly doubt that the first public release will contain a CMS.

And here we have the problem. There are a butt load of other forum packages out there that do things very well. Yes, this software looks nice, but there is absolutely nothing that it currently has that would entice me to switch from the software I currently use. In fact, there are features that are included that are a complete turn off and as it stands right now, would not even be in the top 3 if I were looking for a new solution.

I would think that the devs would wish to entice as many forum owners as possible to switch over to this package as soon as possible upon its release. IMO, concentrating just on the forums will relegate XenForo as "just another solution" rather than one that will make site owners sit up and take notice. The foo-foo stuff that's currently included won't cut it. What is needed is a feature rich environment that includes things that other packages don't do or don't do well. Part of that feature set must be some type of tightly integrated CMS system, or bridge that allows us to use a 3rd party application. THAT would make everyone sit up and take notice.

Promises of "Soon™" or "we'll look at that down the line" doesn't cut it. When the release date finally hits, the package has to be something that makes everyone go "WOW!!". Otherwise, it's nothing more than another solution with promises of better things. And quite frankly, I'm sick and bloody tired of promises of better things. I had it with vB and I currently have it with IPB. I see this too with XenForo and it's old. It was old 5 years ago and it's old today.

Sorry guys. With what I've been seeing over the past week, I've all but lost my enthusiasm. What I see now is nice, but it's not that nice. It's not something that makes me want to pull the trigger on funding another software package. Especially with promises of better things to come. The proof is in the pudding, and I'm not seeing it.

 

[Peggy]

I'm sorry that you feel this way Biker. But I tell you, imo, it's a matter of choice. Would you rather they guy work to release a bug-free forum solution that, when released, would be heads and tails above the rest as far as FORUM solutions go? OR would you rather make everyone wait a year or more for the extras that you and a handful of others want included upon release?

vB didn't start out with blog, gallery, and whatever included. They had to built up to it. IPB had to do the same. You are wanting xF to included all of these things right off the bat. Ain't gonna happen. Updates, upgrades, and add-ons will come, and they will come quickly. But it will not happen overnight.

 

[Shamil]

I'm sorry that you feel this way Biker. But I tell you, imo, it's a matter of choice. Would you rather they guy work to release a bug-free forum solution that, when released, would be heads and tails above the rest as far as FORUM solutions go? OR would you rather make everyone wait a year or more for the extras that you and a handful of others want included upon release?

vB didn't start out with blog, gallery, and whatever included. They had to built up to it. IPB had to do the same. You are wanting xF to included all of these things right off the bat. Ain't gonna happen. Updates, upgrades, and add-ons will come, and they will come quickly. But it will not happen overnight.

Not just that, XenForo doesn't have the resources to simultaneously maintain both products.

 

[Biker]

I'm sorry that you feel this way Biker. But I tell you, imo, it's a matter of choice. Would you rather they guy work to release a bug-free forum solution that, when released, would be heads and tails above the rest as far as FORUM solutions go? OR would you rather make everyone wait a year or more for the extras that you and a handful of others want included upon release?

vB didn't start out with blog, gallery, and whatever included. They had to built up to it. IPB had to do the same. You are wanting xF to included all of these things right off the bat. Ain't gonna happen. Updates, upgrades, and add-ons will come, and they will come quickly. But it will not happen overnight.

Yes, vB and IPB both built up to it, and did it poorly. But IMO, XenForo doesn't have the same luxury. Just because everyone else started out with a forum solution doesn't mean this package is tied to the same type of time line. And because it won't have the features that other solutions do, sales will not be what they could be.

In order for this solution to really shine, it MUST address those areas where the competitors screwed up. Otherwise, it's crippled at the starting line and many won't even give it a second thought as a possible solution. I know I won't.

Edit -- And I've been in the IT biz long enough to know there is no bloody thing as "bug free".

 

[Shamil]

Yes, vB and IPB both built up to it, and did it poorly. But IMO, XenForo doesn't have the same luxury. Just because everyone else started out with a forum solution doesn't mean this package is tied to the same type of time line. And because it won't have the features that other solutions do, sales will not be what they could be.

In order for this solution to really shine, it MUST address those areas where the competitors screwed up. Otherwise, it's crippled at the starting line and many won't even give it a second thought as a possible solution. I know I won't.

Whilst I agree, if you were the project manager, how would you plan this out?

 

[Brandon_R]

Yes, vB and IPB both built up to it, and did it poorly. But IMO, XenForo doesn't have the same luxury. Just because everyone else started out with a forum solution doesn't mean this package is tied to the same type of time line. And because it won't have the features that other solutions do, sales will not be what they could be.

In order for this solution to really shine, it MUST address those areas where the competitors screwed up. Otherwise, it's crippled at the starting line and many won't even give it a second thought as a possible solution. I know I won't.

You finally said something with sense. I think that is key to succeeding in this business. You've nailed it and i hope the devs see that also.

 

[Biker]

Whilst I agree, if you were the project manager, how would you plan this out?

This is where IB blew it. You had a company that had absolutely NO experience with producing commercial software purchasing Jelsoft. And by the time they did get someone who had experience in managing commercial packages, they'd alienated a good chunk of their user base. They still don't have it right. And quite honestly, as much as I'd love to go back to vB, I don't think they'll have a great product again for at LEAST another year, maybe longer.

While I don't doubt Mike and Kier have lofty plans for XenForo, it can't be approached as another forum solution. It has to be a SITE solution that makes owners of other software packages sit up and take notice. It not only needs to address the inclusion of an integrated CMS solution, it must do so in a way that blows the competition out of the water (as if that would be hard to do).

First, stop with the foo-foo crap. IB continues to throw in half baked features that don't work as they should, while ignoring things that have been broken from day one.

While pretty may sell for a small portion of users, it's not what makes me sit up and take notice. First of all, I see everyone raving about how the existing forum looks. I hate it. As an older individual, the half tones and light lines make things difficult to read. This may be great for the kiddies, but for us old farts, the style stinks.

You want to make sales, concentrate on making this an all inclusive package that does things WELL! Not half baked features with a promise of "we'll look at this later". Screw that. I've had my fill of that which is why I switched to IPB. And even now, I'm still not happy as an Administrator. My users like the IPB software, but from a "staff" standpoint, there's a lot that could be improved upon. An AWFUL lot.

If XenForo is going to succeed, it has to address those weaknesses that other solutions currently have. I can put up with a lot, but what I won't put up with are half baked promises from the developers. Sorry guys, I've put up with it far too long, and in order for you to make the sale, I have to see that this software blows the competition out of the water. So far, it ain't doing it.

 

[ManagerJosh]

Wordpress is a good front page and blog, but a CMS it's not. It's not multiuser enough.

A lot of things get called a CMS which are not a CMS.

What do you mean "multi-user" ?

 

[ManagerJosh]

This is where IB blew it. You had a company that had absolutely NO experience with producing commercial software purchasing Jelsoft. And by the time they did get someone who had experience in managing commercial packages, they'd alienated a good chunk of their user base. They still don't have it right. And quite honestly, as much as I'd love to go back to vB, I don't think they'll have a great product again for at LEAST another year, maybe longer.

While I don't doubt Mike and Kier have lofty plans for XenForo, it can't be approached as another forum solution. It has to be a SITE solution that makes owners of other software packages sit up and take notice. It not only needs to address the inclusion of an integrated CMS solution, it must do so in a way that blows the competition out of the water (as if that would be hard to do).

First, stop with the foo-foo crap. IB continues to throw in half baked features that don't work as they should, while ignoring things that have been broken from day one.

While pretty may sell for a small portion of users, it's not what makes me sit up and take notice. First of all, I see everyone raving about how the existing forum looks. I hate it. As an older individual, the half tones and light lines make things difficult to read. This may be great for the kiddies, but for us old farts, the style stinks.

You want to make sales, concentrate on making this an all inclusive package that does things WELL! Not half baked features with a promise of "we'll look at this later". Screw that. I've had my fill of that which is why I switched to IPB. And even now, I'm still not happy as an Administrator. My users like the IPB software, but from a "staff" standpoint, there's a lot that could be improved upon. An AWFUL lot.

If XenForo is going to succeed, it has to address those weaknesses that other solutions currently have. I can put up with a lot, but what I won't put up with are half baked promises from the developers. Sorry guys, I've put up with it far too long, and in order for you to make the sale, I have to see that this software blows the competition out of the water. So far, it ain't doing it.

I feel what we need are community solutions, not site solutions. Elements and building blocks that would help us build a community, expand an existing community and thrive.

 

[Biker]

However, would not a site solution include the need for a community element? By specifying a "site" solution, this is something that would encompass everything a community developer would want for their site. XenForo isn't going to topple Facebook, and I don't expect them to. But there are enough ideas floating around that could make this a top notch integrated solution that would make everyone sit up and take notice.

Marketing XenForo as a forum solution kills the product before it even gets started. There are a butt load of forum solutions out there.

 

[Shamil]

XenSite?

 

[Russ]

Yes, vB and IPB both built up to it, and did it poorly. But IMO, XenForo doesn't have the same luxury. Just because everyone else started out with a forum solution doesn't mean this package is tied to the same type of time line. And because it won't have the features that other solutions do, sales will not be what they could be.

In order for this solution to really shine, it MUST address those areas where the competitors screwed up. Otherwise, it's crippled at the starting line and many won't even give it a second thought as a possible solution. I know I won't.

Edit -- And I've been in the IT biz long enough to know there is no bloody thing as "bug free".

I think this is a battle that won't be won Biker... XenForo is being released as a new type of forum software, the devs have made it clear that they do have additional things planned but can't release an official time yet. XenForo in my eyes are doing things different than other companies, but it seems you're only definition of doing things different is a MANDATORY CMS AT LAUNCH. Which... in the end is sort of unfair.

 

[ManagerJosh]

However, would not a site solution include the need for a community element? By specifying a "site" solution, this is something that would encompass everything a community developer would want for their site. XenForo isn't going to topple Facebook, and I don't expect them to. But there are enough ideas floating around that could make this a top notch integrated solution that would make everyone sit up and take notice.

Marketing XenForo as a forum solution kills the product before it even gets started. There are a butt load of forum solutions out there.

Personally, I feel it boils down to perspective. To me, a site solution follows traditional content flow patterns where content is exclusively issued by a webmaster and his/her team.

A community solution encompasses traditional content flow patterns, but also allows for the community to actively participate and contribute to the content flow patterns. Thus content is generated not only from the webmaster team, but from the community.

 

[David Thomas]

Wordpress is a good front page and blog, but a CMS it's not. It's not multiuser enough.

A lot of things get called a CMS which are not a CMS.

How do you define "multiuser enough"???

 

[Biker]

I think this is a battle that won't be won Biker... XenForo is being released as a new type of forum software, the devs have made it clear that they do have additional things planned but can't release an official time yet. XenForo in my eyes are doing things different than other companies, but it seems you're only definition of doing things different is a MANDATORY CMS AT LAUNCH. Which... in the end is sort of unfair.

What's new about it? As I stated, there are a butt load of forum solutions already out there, some of which are free. Many of us use products from IB and/or IPB. In order for XenForo to win those individuals over, it can't just be a forum solution. Even if I were still running vB 3.x, there's nothing in XenForo as yet that even remotely makes me want to switch.

 

[Kier]

Our goal is to do whatever we do well. What we have right now is a forum system that arguably does just that. It makes no sense to delay its release until such time as we have researched and built a CMS, blog, gallery or kitchen sink solution. If that means that XenForo does not meet the requirements of some people, so be it.

We believe that there is a market for a focused, best-in-class forum system built on a modern, flexible architecture with great performance and an emphasis on user experience. We would rather get that out to people now so that we can start to build a third party developer community and have people designing new themes etc. than wait until some indeterminate point in the future where we can do everything - should that point ever even come about.

Biker, if our strategy is not inline with what you require, I'm sorry to hear that, but as you have already given up on both vBulletin and IPB it's fair to say you are not the easiest person to please. We could delay for months or years while we integrate all the great ideas out there, but I do not believe that to be the wisest course of action for us.

 

[David Thomas]

Break it down:

While I don't doubt Mike and Kier have lofty plans for XenForo, it can't be approached as another forum solution. It has to be a SITE solution that makes owners of other software packages sit up and take notice. It not only needs to address the inclusion of an integrated CMS solution, it must do so in a way that blows the competition out of the water (as if that would be hard to do).

It doesn't HAVE to be a site solution if M&K don't want it to be. Now, it just so happens, that they plan on adding the other stuff later (in whatever form is decided), but on the off-chance that they said "screw it, we're only focusing on the forums", then you'd have to either accept this fact and find a third-party bridge/solution, or move on to the next product. A forum software can sell as just forum software alone if it's built with very high quality and stability.

While pretty may sell for a small portion of users, it's not what makes me sit up and take notice. First of all, I see everyone raving about how the existing forum looks. I hate it. As an older individual, the half tones and light lines make things difficult to read. This may be great for the kiddies, but for us old farts, the style stinks.

Uhm, get a new style when you install the forum then? There's no rules governing that default styles have to be black 12px Arial text on a white background. Even then, I'm sure someone such as yourself would find a way to complain, gripe, and groan about it. Get off our internets, grandpa.

And even now, I'm still not happy as an Administrator. My users like the IPB software, but from a "staff" standpoint, there's a lot that could be improved upon. An AWFUL lot.

In the end, isn't this about your users? So what if you have to make two extra clicks to complete a task, is it worth telling your users "eff your opinions on this software" just so you can ban them quicker? I think not. Sounds to me like your "staff" needs to learn to deal with it.

If XenForo is going to succeed, it has to address those weaknesses that other solutions currently have. I can put up with a lot, but what I won't put up with are half baked promises from the developers. Sorry guys, I've put up with it far too long, and in order for you to make the sale, I have to see that this software blows the competition out of the water. So far, it ain't doing it.

Wait until the software is released, install a sandbox version somewhere, then make some claims about whether-or-not it's half-baked. Kind of hard to tell when the only thing you can see is the company forums, which are probably not even updated to whatever the latest trunk is.

 

[chousho]

<snip>

Please define "foofoo" features that are included. As well, what would make Xenforo "blow the competition out of the water"? If you really want Kier and Mike to get the idea, give them specifics!

Simply saying "the general majority of admins won't like X because I don't", only says that you don't like that feature. Yes, no program (that is worth its worth in salt) is 100% bug free; however there is a comparable difference between a rock-solid platform, and software rushed out in order to work on other integrated ports. I would much rather ONLY have a forum software if it meant said forum was rock solid. Do I want a CMS/blog/etc? Of course! But not at the chance of compromising quality! Look at Yahoo! for a prime example of how that goes.

 

[Biker]

Biker, if our strategy is not inline with what you require, I'm sorry to hear that, but as you have already given up on both vBulletin and IPB it's fair to say you are not the easiest person to please. We could delay for months or years while we integrate all the great ideas out there, but I do not believe that to be the wisest course of action for us.

Oh hell. I was happy with vB 3.x. We, like many others, got suckered into thinking that 4.0 was going to be something new and innovative. Add to that a rather lucrative "pre-release" sale and we got suckered along with countless other site owners. I'd love to go back to 3.x. However, skiing will become a favorite pastime in Hades before I go back to IB while the existing management team exists there.