If you thought GDPR is a joke, joke's on you

You're making huge assumptions about someone's situation you don't know the details of.

I am in the USA, my forums are in the USA and most of my users are in the USA. For two years small businesses like mine were assured it didn't impact us unless we targetted EU users. Two months ago Google tells us we must comply if we want to continue to use their tools so they can be compliant. The first few weeks after this there wasn't even a clear indication from Google or on forums such as TAZ what needed to be done in order to be in full compliance.

I'm not making any assumptions, though. If you are operating in the EU (and regardless of where you're physically located, you're using a global service - the internet - and not explicitly blocking European users), you have to comply with European internet regulations. That's something that isn't new to the GDPR; most privacy laws operate the same way (e.g., you technically have to comply with the Russian data protection laws and if you don't, you'll get blocked - that's why linkedin is unavailable in Russia).

Well good for you, but everyone's situation isn't the same. Any time I spent on this I had to take away from billable time with my clients. I'm not implementing GDPR on my sites while being paid for it by an employer, and spending time in my off hours with my wife and children is a priority.

Again, that time was supposed to be spread out over a much longer time than the past month or two. It really shouldn't have been an issue.

It's only taxing because most people didn't prepare for it early. And, believe me, I know that pain. I had to do a last minute implementation for a company that didn't prepare and I was up until 7 AM without sleep; it wasn't fun. But, that was our problem; not the European Union's.

Taking personal shots at me is uncalled for.

It's not a personal shot as much as the plural "you" as in "one". But, I stand by what I said. There are a lot of people, especially Americans, who simply didn't fulfil their duty and are now paying the price.
 
I'm not making any assumptions, though. If you are operating in the EU (and regardless of where you're physically located, you're using a global service - the internet - and not explicitly blocking European users), you have to comply with European internet regulations. That's something that isn't new to the GDPR; most privacy laws operate the same way (e.g., you technically have to comply with the Russian data protection laws and if you don't, you'll get blocked - that's why linkedin is unavailable in Russia).

Under US law, we are not subject to laws in other countries unless we are physically there, or actively doing business there. Technically my sites are not subject to GDPR, because I do not do business there, nor target their users. Google, however, decided at the last minute that sites such as mine had to comply if we wanted to continue to use their tools such as Google Analytics. Had they notified me of this two years ago it would not have been an issue and I could have easily taken care of it when business wasn't busy.

Again, that time was supposed to be spread out over a much longer time than the past month or two. It really shouldn't have been an issue.

Again, I wasn't subject to this until two months ago when Google decided to tell publishers at the last minute it was part of their new terms.
 
It is that simple, actually. You guys had TWO WHOLE YEARS to update your software. The problem is that everyone forgot about it until the last minute. That is a personal problem; not a problem with the GDPR itself.

ftsservice has a point. It's not as if anyone was told about GDPR two years ago, I mean they could have opted everyone into a GDPR newsletter and sent it out. Oh wait...
 
Under US law, we are not subject to laws in other countries unless we are physically there, or actively doing business there. Technically my sites are not subject to GDPR, because I do not do business there, nor target their users. Google, however, decided at the last minute that sites such as mine had to comply if we wanted to continue to use their tools such as Google Analytics. Had they notified me of this two years ago it would not have been an issue and I could have easily taken care of it when business wasn't busy.

You're effectively subject to it regardless of what your country's laws say because the EU has control over data coming in and going out of their borders.

I would not be surprised at all if the EU started going Russia on non-compliant sites eventually and just blocking them (e.g., like Russia and Linkedin).

Again, I wasn't subject to this until two months ago when Google decided to tell publishers at the last minute it was part of their new terms.

See above.
 
You're effectively subject to it regardless of what your country's laws say because the EU has control over data coming in and going out of their borders.

If this were the case then every country would have to enforce the Great Firewall of China, and every other country's internet related laws. GDRP is overreaching and anti-sovereignty. What if China decided foreign websites critical of their leadership owed them a large fine if a Chinese visitor read it? What if Russia decides any foreign website which is pro-LGBT rights is subject to a fine if a Russian reads it?

If a citizen in the EU wants EU privacy protection and more protections than another country provides its really simple: don't send a browser request to another country asking for information to be sent back to them, and especially... don't share information with that server. It should not be on my shoulder's to determine where every user is coming from in order to determine compliance with their country's laws.
 
Sure, there's a lot to know. But, again, it's not all that hard for a small company to do the TL;DR version of it and they'll generally be fine. Larger companies that are actually in danger can easily afford to pay their lawyers to actually go through the law.

And, again, the main point that I'm trying to get across is this law was implemented more than two years ago. It's really not the European Union's fault that everyone forgot until last week.

@Assadi

Again, assumptions. The main problem with GDPR is that it did not scale the law. A business making $50,000 annually versus making $50,000,000 had to do the exact same level of milestones (effort/work is varies between business to business) to achieve GDPR compliance.

Larger companies, in my opinion, have a lot easier time implementing GDPR because they potentially have money and resources to throw at the problem. With money, they can hire lawyers, purchase resources, and recruit an army of talent to help them achieve compliance with GDPR.

Two years later, some businesses are barely finding out about GDPR. Why? Because they reside outside of the EU and we typically view laws as territorial in nature, not one binded to an individual. The perception is that it does not apply to them. Is it negligence? Maybe, but the EU has not done much awareness outside of the EU regarding GDPR.

Moreover, two years later, some of the best lawyers I've talked to and worked with have questions regarding GDPR because there is too much questions, not enough answers, and too much blanket language that it leaves much of it open to interpretation. I have a difficult enough time understanding GDPR, and the exceptions, and nuisances of law. But if lawyers are having trouble understanding GDPR, imagine how much trouble the average IT or average business owner will have.

Plus there are far more bigger, complex GDPR issues that has created conflicts with laws outside the EU.

For example, does the 72 hour data breach notification rule apply when the laws in your own country supersede the GDPR requirement when law enforcement is involved and that they explicitly tell you to not do any notification because doing so would impede their investigation? So who is right here? Do I get fined 4% of global annual income or 20 million euros?

What about small businesses who don't have 20 million euros sitting around?
 
The GDPR at it's most basic level is a laughable law. It fails to answer how one determines if a user is in the EU.

People will say by IP address. But, I am from the US and with 2 clicks of a mouse I can look like I'm in Germany. So, there went that idea.

GDPR while a good idea, isn't well thought out at all. I really think portions of it would fail miserably in any court of law. The main one being, prove to me you're in the EU before I do anything so far as removing your personal data. Or am I just suppose to take a person's word for it? HEY! I'm in Germany, delete my data!
 
GDPR while a good idea, isn't well thought out at all. I really think portions of it would fail miserably in any court of law. The main one being, prove to me you're in the EU before I do anything so far as removing your personal data. Or am I just suppose to take a person's word for it? HEY! I'm in Germany, delete my data!

So when someone gets stroppy, ask for proof of being in Europe: utility bills, photo of them using the sauna and running into the snow being beaten with birch branches, shopping at LIDL, drinking warm beer in Wigan, taking a Siesta: loads of ways to prove EUness.
 
To be honest if someone got stroppy with me the last thing I would want to do is engage in conversation with them .
 
So when someone gets stroppy, ask for proof of being in Europe: utility bills, photo of them using the sauna and running into the snow being beaten with birch branches, shopping at LIDL, drinking warm beer in Wigan, taking a Siesta: loads of ways to prove EUness.
Or, for us US folks, if they use "stroppy" in conversational English then that's also a good sign that they may be from 'across-the-pond'. :coffee:
 
If this were the case then every country would have to enforce the Great Firewall of China, and every other country's internet related laws.

You're literally proving my point... If you don't comply with the Chinese law, they will block you countrywide. Same for Russia.

What I said was I would not be surprised if the EU started doing that to non-compliant sites in the future.

What if Russia decides any foreign website which is pro-LGBT rights is subject to a fine if a Russian reads it?

Again, I did not say anything about the fines affecting you in your home country. What I did say is that the EU has total right to do whatever they want within the EU about your website because you're effectively operating in the EU. If they want to fine you in the EU and make your life a total hell if you ever visit, they can.

And, again, in the future, I would not be surprised to see them cut off access to your website at the country level.

As far as Russia goes, we do block access to and cause drama with foreign sites. That's not new. We just don't fine you over it.

People will say by IP address. But, I am from the US and with 2 clicks of a mouse I can look like I'm in Germany. So, there went that idea.

With regards to Europeans using foreign proxies, it's all about best effort; many of the data agencies in EU member states have said this. If you make a best effort attempt, like blocking them by IP address and adding terms saying Europeans are banned, no one is realistically going to fine you.

As far as the American pretending to be European goes, personally, I just willingly offer American users the same privileges I am required to grant to Europeans. I don't know why you'd do anything else because you're just making it harder on yourself.

It's really not all that hard to take a deletion request from the couple of oddball Americans who try to pretend to be Europeans. You'd waste far more time vetting them than you would pressing the rename & delete button.

Again, assumptions. The main problem with GDPR is that it did not scale the law. A business making $50,000 annually versus making $50,000,000 had to do the exact same level of milestones (effort/work is varies between business to business) to achieve GDPR compliance.

Scales pretty well, honestly. You have the same requirements regardless of company size, yes. But, the amount of work to implement those requirements is massively different based on income.

Generally, and, yes, it's an assumption, a company making $50,000,000 generally has far more independent services that make use of user data than a company making $50,000.

So, I work for a fairly small company; we make about $1,000,000 per year.

We have
  • Our game server
  • Our forum
  • Our store
  • Our homepage (just a frontend for post data from the announcements section on the forum)
  • Our leaderboards (just a frontend for the data already provided by the game server)
All in all, there are only three sources of data for us to worry about there. And, only two products that we're the actual vendor of (XenForo being the one who handles the forum software compliance).

For us, it really wasn't a big deal. As I mentioned, it only really took about six hours for the code required for easy GDPR compliance.

Now, in the case of 50 or 100 million USD, you often have quite a bit more going on than we do and so your development time goes up often pretty relative to the amount of cash you're pulling in.

Larger companies, in my opinion, have a lot easier time implementing GDPR because they potentially have money and resources to throw at the problem. With money, they can hire lawyers, purchase resources, and recruit an army of talent to help them achieve compliance with GDPR.

I agree. This is the case for all laws, though.

For example, does the 72 hour data breach notification rule apply when the laws in your own country supersede the GDPR requirement when law enforcement is involved and that they explicitly tell you to not do any notification because doing so would impede their investigation?

As with most of the rest of the questions, a big theme is that most of it comes down to best effort. If you are complying literally as best as you possibly legally can, they are not going to fine you. Everyone I've talked to has reiterated that. Go have a chat with the ICO or any other European data protection agency and they'll essentially tell you the same thing.

The idea is, generally, try to be nice and try to follow the rules. If you can't follow them exactly 100% to the T due to legal reasons or whatever, don't worry too much about it; they're not here to kill you. They just want the best possible for their citizens.
 
PS The EU is a bunch of unelected bureaucrats and not a country but a collective of countries each it would appear with their own rules and variations of.
 
If this were the case then every country would have to enforce the Great Firewall of China, and every other country's internet related laws. GDRP is overreaching and anti-sovereignty. What if China decided foreign websites critical of their leadership owed them a large fine if a Chinese visitor read it? What if Russia decides any foreign website which is pro-LGBT rights is subject to a fine if a Russian reads it?

If a citizen in the EU wants EU privacy protection and more protections than another country provides its really simple: don't send a browser request to another country asking for information to be sent back to them, and especially... don't share information with that server. It should not be on my shoulder's to determine where every user is coming from in order to determine compliance with their country's laws.

Replying to my own post to clarify something:

For the record, none of the things I've expressed in this thread should be taken to imply I don't value privacy, or that I overlook the bad privacy practices of Facebook and the like. Or that of my users (I'm careful with their data and will remove things such as posts with personal information if they request it). Rather, I feel GDPR is the wrong approach, overly broad concerning its definitions of personal/private information, overreaching lines of sovereignty, and punishing the innocent along with the guilty with compliance costs and time.

The way it's setup the guilty big players are actually benefitting! Google's Doubleclick reported buying is down significantly for most ad networks, except for the big players such as Adsense and the like (they are up as everyone is shifting buys because they are terrified an ad network might not be compliant). If it hurts anyone, it won't be Google, Facebook, Twitter... it will be smaller competitors.
 
Replying to my own post to clarify something:

For the record, none of the things I've expressed in this thread should be taken to imply I don't value privacy, or that I overlook the bad privacy practices of Facebook and the like. Or that of my users (I'm careful with their data and will remove things such as posts with personal information if they request it). Rather, I feel GDPR is the wrong approach, overly broad concerning its definitions of personal/private information, overreaching lines of sovereignty, and punishing the innocent along with the guilty with compliance costs and time.

The way it's setup the guilty big players are actually benefitting! Google's Doubleclick reported buying is down significantly for most ad networks, except for the big players such as Adsense and the like (they are up as everyone is shifting buys because they are terrified an ad network might not be compliant). If it hurts anyone, it won't be Google, Facebook, Twitter... it will be smaller competitors.

As my colleague Briggs and I discussed in our recent SXSW talk - GDPR only keeps honest people honest. But it also creates a huge black market and opportunities for dishonest people to stay dishonest.
 
You're literally proving my point... If you don't comply with the Chinese law, they will block you countrywide. Same for Russia.

This is not the same as enforcing a law across borders. The block is at the Chinese or Russian border. If I don't comply with Chinese law there is nothing they can do about it. They can block me all they want, but I can continue to publish the content they do not like.

What I said was I would not be surprised if the EU started doing that to non-compliant sites in the future.

If they begin to isolate their Internet connectivity from the world perhaps people will start to understand this type of law can kill commerce, and there are consequences for bad law.

As far as Russia goes, we do block access to and cause drama with foreign sites. That's not new. We just don't fine you over it.

I am not in the least bit surprised by Russia doing this. Here it would be a violation of the 1st Amendment.

As far as the American pretending to be European goes, personally, I just willingly offer American users the same privileges I am required to grant to Europeans. I don't know why you'd do anything else because you're just making it harder on yourself.

Actually, there is a business case for treating them differently. Cookie notices are annoying and increase bounce rates (I've done A/B testing on this to confirm). The more fields and text on a form, such as registration forms, decreases completion rates.
 
All in all, there are only three sources of data for us to worry about there. And, only two products that we're the actual vendor of (XenForo being the one who handles the forum software compliance).

For us, it really wasn't a big deal. As I mentioned, it only really took about six hours for the code required for easy GDPR compliance.
That is absolutely amazing, we spent more time just reading laws and discussing necessary steps with our lawayer.

I am curious: How did you implement Article 18?
 
I am not in the least bit surprised by Russia doing this. Here it would be a violation of the 1st Amendment.

We block websites that break our laws and refuse to comply... We don't block them for being rude to Vladdy Daddy.

That is literally not a violation of free speech at all. And, it's not very different from you guys forcefully taking the domains of "law breakers" (e.g., mega upload). Maybe you should work on being more familiar with the practices of your own country before casting stones.

Blocking a website that intentionally refuses to protect European citizens out of spite would not be a violation of free speech either.


they want, but I can continue to publish the content they do not like.

You literally chose not to read the part right below that where I said that they probably can't do a lot on forcing you to pay the fine but can instead block you or make your life hell the moment you step foot in Europe.

Actually, there is a business case for treating them differently. Cookie notices are annoying and increase bounce rates (I've done A/B testing on this to confirm). The more fields and text on a form, such as registration forms, decreases completion rates.

We are on about the incredibly small minority of Americans who use a foreign European proxy to connect to your site. The bounce rate of them is essentially irrelevant; it's not like you're showing the cookie notice to Americans with American ip addresses.

What I meant was I treat America data with the same level of respect that I treat European and Russian data. And, I grant them the same privileges to delete there data out of kindness because as I mentioned before, people do t actually often want to delete their accounts when they like you and your service.


is absolutely amazing, we spent more time just reading laws and discussing necessary steps with our lawayer.

I am curious: How did you implement Article 18?

Yes, reading the law and writing a privacy policy took infinitely longer than any code implementations ;)

So, for article 18, you can go into the advanced setting on your account, which is also where we store the deletion button and all of that, and you can click that button that transfers you to the restricted zone (can't quite remember the English translation we have for this one but it's less dumb than that, I promise).

That button essentially moves your data to a separate server and puts you in a separate encrypted database that can't be accessed except by high level staff. The only data of yours that remains on the main server is the argon2id hashed password, email, and your username in order to let you log back in. But, those are never used for data processing so they're pretty irrelevant.

That keeps you separate and unprocessable for 3 months by default. After two months, you will will receive a reminder email let you know that the expiration is coming up soon and you can either choose to extend it, release the data early or wait the month for it to automatically be transferred back to the main servers.

The account system is a separate loosely coupled microservice that I have built which is why it was so easy to do this. Essentially, in my case, you just need to take all other data and put it somewhere unusable. Effectively, to everything me sides the login module, you don't exist at all. And, we don't have any sort of public user list so I doubt anyone could argue that their login profile is being used for data processing.

Finally, as we don't rely on any third party data processors, we don't need to notify anyone about the restrictions either. That makes life a little bit easier for us.
 
Last edited:
I would not be surprised at all if the EU started going Russia on non-compliant sites eventually and just blocking them (e.g., like Russia and Linkedin).
Currently the opposite is occurring. Many sites are blocking EU originating IP's.
 
Top Bottom