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Good Night

Lawrence

Well-known member
#1
Sorry, but Waindigo answered nothing. And as XenForo doesn't care enough to protect the rights and privacy of its add-on developers, I am requesting that all my add-ons that are installed with any Waindigo add-on be un-installed.

To be clear, if any Waindigo add-on is installed on your server and one of my add-ons are, you must uninstall my add-on immediately. Sorry all, but the right to privacy is important to me, and one person can not be, nor shall be a dictator to this.

A configuration setting that admins must set? No. A configuration setting set to yes for all non-waindigo add-ons I can live with, but having admins set it to no, I can not be comfortable with. When did one person become a dictator.

Good night, all. Waindigo turned out to be a wolf in sheep's clothing. What does bother me, is that XF approves.
 
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batpool52!

Well-known member
#2
With this case, we had sent the apology to Jon W (Waindigo) and he accepted that, as he mentioned in our thread recently. And he also recommend a strong union between us. So everyone can know that ******* and Jon W are going to an agreement to make benefits for both sides, and also for the customers of XenForo.
Just saying...
 

idFox

Well-known member
#7
It seems to me, but with the IPB-developers affairs will be better?

Guys! We are building a community!
What "easy" money?
 
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Ridemonkey

Well-known member
#8
To be clear, if any Waindigo add-on is installed on your server and one of my add-ons are, you must uninstall my add-on immediately. Sorry all, but the right to privacy is important to me, and one person can not be, nor shall be a dictator to this.
I'd like to see you try to enforce this.

I don't use any of your add-ons, but to think you can somehow dictate the terms by which your customers use your publicly available resources is silly.

What, exactly, is your concern here as a developer? Jon W can already download the entirety of your code, so you can't be concerned about protecting that, and there's no evidence that's being done anyway.

Please elaborate on why you, a developer, should order around your customers?
 

Ridemonkey

Well-known member
#9
When I accepted the apology I did encourage ******* to come clean about all his other activities and said that we might be able to consider ways of working together, but only if they came completely clean.

Given that XenForo has since decided that the allegations are so serious that they would be banned from listing on XenForo, I won't be making any agreement with them.
Just saying...
 

Mouth

Well-known member
#11
Please elaborate on why you, a developer, should order around your customers?
Because any customer installing the Waindigo Install/Upgrade add-on is sending tracking information about @Lawrence's add-on (and all other developers add-on's) to Waindigo. Thus, a 3rd party add-on developer is now spying on the installation and usage statistics of an add-on that is not their own.
The precedent this sets is far reaching. And I think it's fair and valid for Lawrence not to want the usage/installations statistics of his add-on to be provided to Waindigo.
I would be surprised if we shortly do not see add-on updates that first check if Waindigo's add-on is installed, and refuse to install or operate if it is.
 

Ridemonkey

Well-known member
#12
Because any customer installing the Waindigo Install/Upgrade add-on is sending tracking information about @Lawrence's add-on (and all other developers add-on's) to Waindigo. Thus, a 3rd party add-on developer is now spying on the installation and usage statistics of an add-on that is not their own.
The precedent this sets is far reaching. And I think it's fair and valid for Lawrence not to want the usage/installations statistics of his add-on to be provided to Waindigo.
I would be surprised if we shortly do not see add-on updates that first check if Waindigo's add-on is installed, and refuse to install or operate if it is.
Why do you think this is surprising or somehow threatening?

How many checkboxes do you see in the computer world that say things like "Send Usage Statistics"? Do you know what those stats typically gather? Hint: it's often not just first party information. If I tell Google they can gather my usage statistics for Chrome, it also sends them my version of Windows, add-on information, third party apps like Java, etc.

Why is this threatening? It's a usage statistic and it's up to the user not the developer whether they want to provide information. This is user privacy not developer privacy.

Should the OP, or other developers, also assess my server security? After all, someone could steal literally all of the paid add-ons I own if they were to break into my server. That seems like a worse offense than usage stats.

It was a request not a demand.
It was not phrased as a request. It was phrased very specifically as a demand.
 

Russ

Well-known member
#13
Why do you think this is surprising or somehow threatening?

How many checkboxes do you see in the computer world that say things like "Send Usage Statistics"? Do you know what those stats typically gather? Hint: it's often not just first party information. If I tell Google they can gather my usage statistics for Chrome, it also sends them my version of Windows, add-on information, third party apps like Java, etc.

Why is this threatening? It's a usage statistic and it's up to the user not the developer whether they want to provide information. This is user privacy not developer privacy.

Should the OP, or other developers, also assess my server security? After all, someone could steal literally all of the paid add-ons I own if they were to break into my server. That seems like a worse offense than usage stats.



It was not phrased as a request. It was phrased very specifically as a demand.
Because he didn't say: I am requesting, right? :D
 

FredC

Well-known member
#14
It was not phrased as a request. It was phrased very specifically as a demand.
Fair enough. I did notice it went from a request to a demand in the next paragraph. Although I'm sure he can easily enforce this if pushed hard enough, simply by pulling them. It's not like Lawrence is going to lose any money since he doesn't charge for them in the first place (afaik)
 

Ridemonkey

Well-known member
#15
Although I'm sure he can easily enforce this if pushed hard enough, simply by pulling them. It's not like Lawrence is going to lose any money since he doesn't charge for them in the first place (afaik)
Yep, and that's what he should do if he's concerned.

When you distribute anything, you have to accept that your customers may or may not use it in the way you intend. Heck, I may choose to publish a list of my add-ons on the front page of my website. That's my choice, and, as long as I'm not violating their rights as an intellectual property owner, I don't think it's up to the developer to tell me what I'm allowed to do to make my life more or less convenient. That might include aggregating and sending usage information because I want the simplicity of a one-click add-on updater (which, incidentally, I don't use at the moment).
 

HWS

Well-known member
#16
That might include aggregating and sending usage information because I want the simplicity of a one-click add-on updater (which, incidentally, I don't use at the moment).
The code is owned by the developer and you are allowed to use it only under the conditions the developer decides.

If the developer says that you are not allowed to use his add-ons together with any Waindigo add-ons you simply have to comply and uninstall either his or Waindigos add-on.

It does not matter what you want, if you are a licensed user of someone elses code.
 

FredC

Well-known member
#17
Yep, and that's what he should do if he's concerned.

When you distribute anything, you have to accept that your customers may or may not use it in the way you intend. Heck, I may choose to publish a list of my add-ons on the front page of my website. That's my choice, and, as long as I'm not violating their rights as an intellectual property owner, I don't think it's up to the developer to tell me what I'm allowed to do to make my life more or less convenient. That might include aggregating and sending usage information because I want the simplicity of a one-click add-on updater (which, incidentally, I don't use at the moment).
I suppose under that line of thinking I would be free to remove any copyright or attributions that I don't like in my footer without paying for branding free, would that be correct?
 

Ridemonkey

Well-known member
#18
The code is owned by the developer and you are allowed to use it only under the conditions the developer decides.
Actually, that's entirely untrue. It's been upheld in the courts on a number of occasions that unreasonable license agreements are not enforceable. Might want to read up on it - just because you're a licensed user of someone's code, doesn't mean that person can dictate all of the parameters in which you can use it.

How is what the OP is asking any different than telling me, "you can use my add-on, but you're not allowed to tell anyone you're using it"? Or, "you can use my add-on, but you must get me to approve any other add-ons you install so I can ensure they meet my criteria"? Or, "if you hire a third party to maintain your servers, I must approve them so I can ensure the privacy of my add-ons is maintained"?

I suppose under that line of thinking I would be free to remove any copyright or attributions that I don't like in my footer without paying for branding free, would that be correct?
No, because you are violating the intellectual property rights of the owner by modifying their application. Please read my post closely. I do not think people should be able to do anything damaging or subversive to the add-on. I just don't think add-on developers should tell users how to run their servers.
 

Jon W

Well-known member
#19
This thread just makes me very sad.

A configuration setting that admins must set? No. A configuration setting set to yes for all non-waindigo add-ons I can live with, but having admins set it to no, I can not be comfortable with. When did one person become a dictator.
Anyone know what Lawrence actually means by this?
 

Lawrence

Well-known member
#20
Yep, and that's what he should do if he's concerned.

When you distribute anything, you have to accept that your customers may or may not use it in the way you intend. Heck, I may choose to publish a list of my add-ons on the front page of my website. That's my choice, and, as long as I'm not violating their rights as an intellectual property owner, I don't think it's up to the developer to tell me what I'm allowed to do to make my life more or less convenient. That might include aggregating and sending usage information because I want the simplicity of a one-click add-on updater (which, incidentally, I don't use at the moment).
My request has nothing to do with forum owners. You can list all your add-ons you use or not, it is up to you. My concern is that a developer is dictating that his add-ons, if you choose to use them, will track specific data, and it is up to you to "opt out". On a side note, it is illegal in Canada for any company to do this.

What seriously concerns me, is that XenForo is alright with this, and by reading Mikes reply in another thread, he is not only is alright with this but endorses it. Why? Because Jon is from the UK?

I can't enforce anyone to uninstall my add-ons, like I stated, I do not know who has what installed, and I don't care. What I am strongly requesting is that you respect my feelings on this: I simply do not want my add-ons associated with any add-on that mines data, and what is far worse, forum owners here are willing to pay to give this data to another developer. I am not pulling my addons or the such, I just do not want them installed along side any developers add-ons that do basically what *******s did in the past. I will be updating my license agreement to reflect this.

I respect a forum owners right to privacy, and no developer should be allowed to take that right from any forum owner.

You want to use this add-on? Sure, go for it, that will be x dollars per year plus any information I choose to take from your site... don't worry, the add-on will do what you need it to do.. well until I decide you are not paying enough for it.