Do you support the immigration law like Arizona?

I just skimmed through the posts, so if this has been mentioned earlier, please pardon the reptitveness.

It has pretty much been stated in this thread what the "Immigration" law really says. So my point of view will be based on my time living in AZ.

The crime from illegal immigrants is rampant in AZ. This has caused the prison system to become over populated with people who are here illegally. Driving around AZ (Mesa, Phoenix especially) at 0430 and 0500, you see the true devestation being caused to our community and economy. Droves of illegal immigrants are on corners waiting for someone to give them a job, or to buy/sell drugs. You have to be there to truly grasp the severity of this situation.

I am for the AZ "immigration" law as it is attempting to fix an issue our government is playing political games with.
 
Since when was my comment insulting? I didn't curse you out. I just stated your point of view could be seen differently.

BTW, for those people moving to your "so called country" may have spoke 1 language eg. Spanish ALL their LIFE.

It isn't easy moving to a new place and learning right away. Try going to China and living there, and then tell me how easy it is..... You will have a tough time too.

This isn't about insulting you at all.. this is about changing your point of view, which i feel is not looking at these immigrants pov.

I would NEVER go to another country and force them to learn English. Here in Florida, especially Miami, there are some places that do not speak English. Literally, blocks of non English speaking businesses that will not help you unless you speak Spanish.

The truth of the matter is English is our primary language in The United States of America. You must learn the native (I say native loosely) language in order to get around successfully. Would you really expect for people to go out of their way to learn YOUR language just to communicate with you?
 
I would NEVER go to another country and force them to learn English. Here in Florida, especially Miami, there are some places that do not speak English. Literally, blocks of non English speaking businesses that will not help you unless you speak Spanish.

The truth of the matter is English is our primary language in The United States of America. You must learn the native (I say native loosely) language in order to get around successfully. Would you really expect for people to go out of their way to learn YOUR language just to communicate with you?


When did I state that it is okay to NOT learn english?

I said you can't expect people to learn it overnight. Heck, some people take a decade to learn it well.

Also it depends on the area you live in.. If your living in little italy or chinatown (as we call them here). Then obviously you can't expect all the shops there to speak english. I mean half of them are immigrants working within a family business. Hopefully their kids and grandkids will help out and speak english fluently.

If you don't like the shops in your area, then complain to the leader in that area. Or just move else where.

No need to pick on others or get frustrated if they can't do something.
 
I just skimmed through the posts, so if this has been mentioned earlier, please pardon the reptitveness.

It has pretty much been stated in this thread what the "Immigration" law really says. So my point of view will be based on my time living in AZ.

The crime from illegal immigrants is rampant in AZ. This has caused the prison system to become over populated with people who are here illegally. Driving around AZ (Mesa, Phoenix especially) at 0430 and 0500, you see the true devestation being caused to our community and economy. Droves of illegal immigrants are on corners waiting for someone to give them a job, or to buy/sell drugs. You have to be there to truly grasp the severity of this situation.

I am for the AZ "immigration" law as it is attempting to fix an issue our government is playing political games with.

I have to agree with you there. however, the problem is no matter how hard the government cracks down on illegal immigrants. They will always find a new method to bring them in.... It's like cops and robbers... there is no end but a continuous loop
 
I can understand why AZ is enforcing this. As stated earlier, some sort of ID is required for transactions of some sorts anyway so it should not be a problem to produce an ID if stopped. Police ask for ID's in PA if you are stopped. Same happened in NC.

On the other hand, people come here for work because they CAN get jobs. If US citizens didn't hire them, then just maybe so many would not come over the boarder illegally. When I was an engineer in furniture plants in NC, some companies bussed workers in (not legal ones) and others knew that the ID used had also been used before at another plant. I think the illegal crime issue though is one that, unless you live in a border state, is hard to comprehend. That all said, why not require one to produce ID?
 
It's also federal law that you have to carry these items when you're in the country.

The only thing Arizona did was take a federal offense and turn it into a state crime so they could enforce it since the Government doesn't care about the drain on the economy illegal immigrants have.

Also the law isn't targeted for illegal Mexicans. It just happens that illegal Mexicans make up the largest majority of illegals in that state. It applies to anyone suspected of not being a US citizen, that also means Russians, Dutch people, Egyptians and anyone else.

If you dont like it, then leave.

Thats the problem. The media turned it into a Racial Firestorm and also acted like Arizona invented this law. They didn't its already a law and has been forever. The only difference now is Arizona can now protect themselves from a very rampant issue. Drugs being smuggled in by illegals.
 
I have to agree with you there. however, the problem is no matter how hard the government cracks down on illegal immigrants. They will always find a new method to bring them in.... It's like cops and robbers... there is no end but a continuous loop

It doesn't matter though. Why have any laws at all. People will kill why prosecute them. At least Arizona can now do something about it.
 
Thats a myth.
Most illegals pay taxes.
The vast majority do.
They pay taxes on jobs that pay very little, so they normally are in line to receive nice tax checks when they do their taxes.
But since most illegals do not want to rock the boat/risk setting off any red flags... they rarely file a tax return. And thats where they "illegals dont pay taxes" bit comes from.
They dont file a tax return means the government gets to keep a lot of money that they were supposed to return at the end of the year.

Where are you getting your information from? If they are using bogus social security numbers / tax identification numbers then they'd be unable to file a tax return to begin with. An employer may be taking out payroll taxes for them (which they'll never be able to claim), but they're probably not paying property taxes, etc.

As to the original question, no, Arizona's law doesn't bother me.
 
Where are you getting your information from? If they are using bogus social security numbers / tax identification numbers then they'd be unable to file a tax return to begin with. An employer may be taking out payroll taxes for them (which they'll never be able to claim), but they're probably not paying property taxes, etc.

As to the original question, no, Arizona's law doesn't bother me.

Illegals cannot pay taxes. Its not possible, unless they are putting cash in envelopes and sending them to D.C.
 
Guys! Can you please stop discussing this issue here? Every time I search for "languages" this discussion keeps appearing.
I believe there are lots of forums out there where you can discuss this topic.

P.S. I know this is the off-topic section. Thank you very much! (:
 
Guys! Can you please stop discussing this issue here? Every time I search for "languages" this discussion keeps appearing.
I believe there are lots of forums out there where you can discuss this topic.

P.S. I know this is the off-topic section. Thank you very much! :)
They should be able to discuss it if they wish; just search specific forums, otherwise you'd get spam anyways.
 
Thats the problem. The media turned it into a Racial Firestorm and also acted like Arizona invented this law. They didn't its already a law and has been forever. The only difference now is Arizona can now protect themselves from a very rampant issue. Drugs being smuggled in by illegals.
So how many kilos of drugs have been stopped due to this law?
Ill let you get back to me with this number.
Go search, ill be waiting.
 
Where are you getting your information from? If they are using bogus social security numbers / tax identification numbers then they'd be unable to file a tax return to begin with. An employer may be taking out payroll taxes for them (which they'll never be able to claim), but they're probably not paying property taxes, etc.

As to the original question, no, Arizona's law doesn't bother me.
From my own experience, from those of relatives, from my fathers friend who was an immigration lawyer, and from common sense.

I used to work as a tax preparer many years ago in a poor town in southern california. I helped illegals do their taxes every day during tax season.

And they paid their taxes. Hell, they were very meticulous in paying their taxes on time.
The constant and steady fear that illegals aliens have is that something they do that is wrong/out of the ordinary will get them flagged.
So most illegal aliens try to live quiet lives, they go to work, go to church, spend most of their time with the family, and try not to follow the law.
They know that breaking the law means a possibility of being flagged and deported.
They know that not filing a return even though your employer reports earnings for you might raise a red flag with the IRS.
They know that not paying your taxes means an IRS agent might flag your return and find out that you are using the SS number of somebody that died 50 years ago.

So illegal immigrants generally have taxes taken out of their paycheck like most americans, they file their returns on time, they pay whatever extra amount of tax is owed.
Thats one way of handling things if you are illegal.
The other way is to have your taxes taken out of your paycheck, but not file a return at all. This is mostly done by folks who know they make so little that they wont have to pay the government any money, its one flag they dont have to worry about, and most likely they would be eligible to receive money back from the government.
They forgo this money as they do not like the risks associated with filing a return, giving the IRS their true mailing address, cashing an IRS check that would link their bank account information to the government, etc...
Some of these things are very paranoid, but the fear of having the IRS report them to ICE is huge within the illegal immigrant community.
So folks let the government keep this money that should be going back to them.
 
From my own experience, from those of relatives, from my fathers friend who was an immigration lawyer, and from common sense.

I used to work as a tax preparer many years ago in a poor town in southern california. I helped illegals do their taxes every day during tax season.

And they paid their taxes. Hell, they were very meticulous in paying their taxes on time.
The constant and steady fear that illegals aliens have is that something they do that is wrong/out of the ordinary will get them flagged.
So most illegal aliens try to live quiet lives, they go to work, go to church, spend most of their time with the family, and try not to follow the law.
They know that breaking the law means a possibility of being flagged and deported.
They know that not filing a return even though your employer reports earnings for you might raise a red flag with the IRS.
They know that not paying your taxes means an IRS agent might flag your return and find out that you are using the SS number of somebody that died 50 years ago.

So illegal immigrants generally have taxes taken out of their paycheck like most americans, they file their returns on time, they pay whatever extra amount of tax is owed.
Thats one way of handling things if you are illegal.
The other way is to have your taxes taken out of your paycheck, but not file a return at all. This is mostly done by folks who know they make so little that they wont have to pay the government any money, its one flag they dont have to worry about, and most likely they would be eligible to receive money back from the government.
They forgo this money as they do not like the risks associated with filing a return, giving the IRS their true mailing address, cashing an IRS check that would link their bank account information to the government, etc...
Some of these things are very paranoid, but the fear of having the IRS report them to ICE is huge within the illegal immigrant community.
So folks let the government keep this money that should be going back to them.

It's still breaking the law, why are the above being prosecuted and deported just because they pay taxes? If that was the case I think I'll go drink and drive tonight, crash in to someone, and because I pay my taxes I'll just get a free ride home out of it right...
 
It's still breaking the law, why are the above being prosecuted and deported just because they pay taxes? If that was the case I think I'll go drink and drive tonight, crash in to someone, and because I pay my taxes I'll just get a free ride home out of it right...
Growing pot is breaking the law.
Making an error on your tax return is against the law.
Downloading music or episodes of your favorite TV show is also against the law.
Talking or Texting on your phone while driving is against the law.
In some states its against the law to operate a business on Sunday. (these laws are still on the books if you can believe it).
Point is that we have a lot of laws, and the government choses to look the other way in some, not aggressively prosecute others, and some completely ignore as if they were not even there.
Entering this country without the proper paperwork is like filing an incorrect tax return. Its a clerical crime. Entering this country with a kilo of cocaine strapped to your back IS a serious crime... both crimes are not nearly the same.

Now let me show you the absurdity of our law system using your drunk driving example.
If you have a couple of drinks and do not feel drunk at all, say because you are a big guy or have a natural high resistance to the effects of alcohol... but you are involved in a car accident, and the police officer has you blow into a machine, and the machine says you are above the legal limit, and the person in the other car or maybe a pedestrian or one of your own passengers ends up dying in the accident... you are charged with second degree murder. That can carry up to a life sentence.

Now take the logical next step to this.
If i get drunk and then drive and nearly run into someone with my car and a cop sees this and pulls me over... should i be charged with attempted murder?
Logically driving drunk is the same as loading up a pistol with one bullet, spinning the chamber and then firing random shots at groups of people... seeing if the bullet fires or not.

Its absurd. You take an issue and you politicize it, once politicized that issue gets so warped that folks take it to absurd levels.
There are movements in this country at the local and state levels to classify a DUI as a attempted murder or something like that. Its ridiculous but some people are trying hard to make this a law.
Just like the immigration issue, the more you twist the issue from what it really is by using scare tactics and a bunch of superfluous adjectives, the less you actually can deal with the situation in a measured and proactive way.
 
From my own experience, from those of relatives, from my fathers friend who was an immigration lawyer, and from common sense.

I used to work as a tax preparer many years ago in a poor town in southern california. I helped illegals do their taxes every day during tax season.

And they paid their taxes. Hell, they were very meticulous in paying their taxes on time.
The constant and steady fear that illegals aliens have is that something they do that is wrong/out of the ordinary will get them flagged.
So most illegal aliens try to live quiet lives, they go to work, go to church, spend most of their time with the family, and try not to follow the law.
They know that breaking the law means a possibility of being flagged and deported.
They know that not filing a return even though your employer reports earnings for you might raise a red flag with the IRS.
They know that not paying your taxes means an IRS agent might flag your return and find out that you are using the SS number of somebody that died 50 years ago.

So illegal immigrants generally have taxes taken out of their paycheck like most americans, they file their returns on time, they pay whatever extra amount of tax is owed.
Thats one way of handling things if you are illegal.
The other way is to have your taxes taken out of your paycheck, but not file a return at all. This is mostly done by folks who know they make so little that they wont have to pay the government any money, its one flag they dont have to worry about, and most likely they would be eligible to receive money back from the government.
They forgo this money as they do not like the risks associated with filing a return, giving the IRS their true mailing address, cashing an IRS check that would link their bank account information to the government, etc...
Some of these things are very paranoid, but the fear of having the IRS report them to ICE is huge within the illegal immigrant community.
So folks let the government keep this money that should be going back to them.

Perhaps this is the case, but I don't see how they'd be able to receive a tax refund. Taxes paid using a bogus SSN (which does happen) cannot be attributed to an actual account, as such those refunds can never be claimed. It simply goes into an special account, which last I checked exceeds $450 million because it can't be paid out. One could argue that since they're in this country illegally, they have no right to that money anyway, since they're employed illegally. Though, the problem also lies with companies that knowingly hire them, etc.

My father immigrated to the U.S. while he was teenager, but he did it the legal way. I realize it's a difficult and long process to be naturalized, but it certainly seems better than constantly worrying about being deported because you're in the country illegally. So, I can empathize with them, but I don't really have any sympathy for them.

In any case, it's certainly not a black and white issue.
 
Perhaps this is the case, but I don't see how they'd be able to receive a tax refund. Taxes paid using a bogus SSN (which does happen) cannot be attributed to an actual account, as such those refunds can never be claimed. It simply goes into an special account, which last I checked exceeds $450 million because it can't be paid out. One could argue that since they're in this country illegally, they have no right to that money anyway, since they're employed illegally. Though, the problem also lies with companies that knowingly hire them, etc.

My father immigrated to the U.S. while he was teenager, but he did it the legal way. I realize it's a difficult and long process to be naturalized, but it certainly seems better than constantly worrying about being deported because you're in the country illegally. So, I can empathize with them, but I don't really have any sympathy for them.

In any case, it's certainly not a black and white issue.
Either way you slice it you end supporting the claim that illegal immigrants not only pay taxes, they pay MORE taxes than anyone else in their tax bracket because they cant receive the refund of their money like most americans under that bracket.
That government recognizes this, and therefore tacitly allows such activity because it is a nice wellhead of free cash for the system.

And of course they have a "right" to that money, that is another huge fallacy.
Illegal Immigrants have broken one law, thats it. A clerical law that they break out of sheer necessity, not out of malice or criminal behavior.
If i download an episode of Mad Men tonight should i then forfeit my tax refund next year since i broke a law?

They worked hard for that money, much harder than i work for mine, and they do it thankfully because they know that the little money they make goes a long ways towards making a better life for them and their family.
Of course they deserve that refund check, its money they have overpaid to the government.
And i would help them get that money. (Its not impossible as you might think).

My father immigrated the legal way too. And after he immigrated legally he illegally overstayed that tourist visa.
My mother came here "legally" too. Legally as in she didnt wade through a river, walk in the hot sun in the desert, or traverse any sort of hill country.
No, she just sat in the passenger seat as my dad drove in, she waived at the border patrol agent and came right in.
"Are you an American ciitizen"
"Yes" she answered.
That was that.

See you cant compare what happened in the past with the reality of today.
You cant say "well my parents came here legally, or they didnt cross the border illegally, or at least they didnt crawl through some gutter or pay some coyote to smuggle them through", etc...
Thats because getting a tourist/student/worker/etc... visa was inexpensive and easy as pie.
As was simply crossing into this country at the border checkpoint without even knowing any English past the phrase "American Citizen".

Please, do me this favor... try to find out how a 25 year old guy from some dirt poor village in southern Mexico is going to get any sort of visa to legally enter the US.
Do the research.
You will find out that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the majority of people in these Latin American countries to legally enter the US.
Visas are restricted by how much money you make, if you own property of any value, if you have a college education, if you are more european looking than native, and other factors that reward visas only to people from good families, with good educations, good jobs, and good land.
These countries dont want their citizens to stay in the US full time, they dont want to lose their citizens and potential tax revenues to another country. That is why they restrict visas to those who they dont deem to be a risk of not coming back.
That is why a poor person would never get a visa, the incentive to stay in the US is too great.

Of course you could always pay a large upfront sum of money and bribe the person that hands out the visas... but if you are a poor laborer who just wants to come to the US to work hard, pick some strawberries in Fresno, and better his lot in life, that aint going to be happening unless you illegally cross the border.

Now go back to your parents and ask them how easy it was to get a visa so they could come to the US?
Things were a lot easier back then.
 
Well I can't speak for America - I can speak for my situation here in Japan.

As a (very) white British guy living in Tokyo I stand out like a sore thumb and I get pulled by the police when I am driving or walking around - most want to see my passport or my Gaijin card (immigrant card) immediately - most of the cops are good and I have no trouble but I dare not to leave my house without that card - when I go jogging, I have that card in my pocket. Why? Because Japanese law states that I have to carry the card at all times, if I fail to produce that card (even if I have a wallet full of other IDs) I can be jailed for up to a month. No phone calls, no messages to the outside world. My wife would probably think I'm dead and I would loose my job for sure (which also gives me the right to stay here) - so basically for not having that card I'm screwed.

Though I'm not upset that this happens and I'm certainly not sprouting about my human rights etc etc for the plain fact I came here out of my own choice. Nobody forced me to live here so I live by the Japanese law.
I have also learned to be almost fluent in Japanese too, why should other people have to speak to me in english because I can't be bothered to speak this country's language? It's their country - its language is Japanese.
I pay taxes, health insurance and a pension here (yes, even a pension that I may not get back if I move back home) - but that is what I should do, pay into the system like everyone else.

I see lots of communities grow in big cities, whether it's Korean, English, Chinese etc but I want no part of them if they just come here and not learn a word and be within their own community.

Back in the UK they are also having immigration issues and want to make a card similar to what you guys talk about - I have no problems regarding it, if they are legal they shouldn't have anything to worry about. Yes, carrying a card is a pain - but it's a lot less of pain than spending time in jail.

As for languages, I think America is an English speaking country NOW, not x amount of years ago - I see no argument in saying Spanish was there first. Japanese derived from Chinese, do you really think telling the Japanese to change the language to chinese because it was first will wash? I don't think so. I think the people who CHOOSE to live there should learn the language of that country.
 
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