Current LawSuit
- Thread starter Blakefire
- Start date
jadmperry
Well-known member
Though I understand and have a sympathetic view of Gabby's opinion, as a general matter, I tend to think that allowing people to post whatever is the preferred method to dealing with garbage that is posted.
I think that there is tension between letting negative opinions ruin the feel of the community and letting people express their concerns. Obvious trolls should obviously be moderated (or expelled). But, I have concerns with shutting down discourse on valid questions/concerns. It can be a fine line. But, as a general principle, I think it makes more sense to let people state their opinions. That allows others to respond to the concerns. Hard to say how that plays out beforehand, but I tend to think openness is the better course of action. Doing so allows for others to respond to others opinions without reference to how wrongheaded the original opinion may be.
I think that there is tension between letting negative opinions ruin the feel of the community and letting people express their concerns. Obvious trolls should obviously be moderated (or expelled). But, I have concerns with shutting down discourse on valid questions/concerns. It can be a fine line. But, as a general principle, I think it makes more sense to let people state their opinions. That allows others to respond to the concerns. Hard to say how that plays out beforehand, but I tend to think openness is the better course of action. Doing so allows for others to respond to others opinions without reference to how wrongheaded the original opinion may be.
BGL
Well-known member
There are risks with absentee XenForo developers.
Take the recent spam attack on XenForo forums. Many of us are totally dependent on XenUtilities for spam protection. XenUtilities had some problems, quickly fixed by XenUtility's developer, but had he moved on or not responded with a fix, it could have overwhelmed a lot of forums. No help from XenForo.
So that is a risk that while XenForo is OK now, something could happen that could make XenForo forums unusable and there is no back up from XenForo.
Jake Bunce
Well-known member
I tried that. I created the infamous "concern" thread and merged all such posts into that thread. People got downright vile and tore each other to pieces. Concentrating all of that emotion into one place proved a bad idea. So now it's back to dealing with multiple threads. It requires more time to address multiple threads, but I do it gladly.
There is no lack of support. I'm here and I responded to reports of spam almost immediately once they started coming in. XenUtiles isn't a dependence situation. Q&A (which is built-in to XenForo) offers great protection if you setup good questions for it. Many people have confirmed that switching to Q&A has stopped their spam problem. Q&A is the best captcha available because it allows admins to customize their questions. XenUtiles takes a different approach by pulling in spam databases. That works well too, but it is far from dependence. And of course beyond the task of blocking spam registrations which XenForo does with Q&A, there is the built-in spam cleaner to enable quick and easy cleanup of spammers that manage to register.
I'd say the bases are covered. We've got good support coverage and good tools to block and cleanup spammers... tools which by their nature do not obsolete like automated captchas and third party APIs. As most people are now aware, XenUtiles had a run-in with SFS's policies which required a patch.
BGL
Well-known member
And a good thing you are as you are the only semblance of product support XenForo has.
But it pointed up the vulnerability of orphan (other than Uncle Jake) software to the constantly evolving technology. What if it had been some change that XenPorta stopped working and Jaxel had moved on? What if you move on? Recent incident made me realize that my one year timeline of having XenForo working could be shortened.
On a positive note, still not regretting the choice of XenForo as best design and best user interface. A forum I'm a member in just converted from V-Bulletin to Invision Power Board. From a design and user interface, there is no real change, it still looks dated. XenForo is a much more professional software look to it than either V-Bulletin or Invision which both look like hobby software.
XenForo still has the lead. Still has time to recover and maintain the lead but that time frame seems a bit shorter now.
Jake Bunce
Well-known member
BGL
Well-known member
Me too. What if Jaxel had moved on. The XenUtilities no longer supported and some change in web tapestry had put serious dent in XenForo forums? Example of the risks of starting a forum with orphaned software. Or if "orphaned" sounds too final, in suspended animation until a "cure" is found.
What could XenForo (assuming = KAM and/or their direct employs) have done that would not have been a distraction under the circumstances?
The user community had two excellent add-ons (XenUtiles & Sonnb) that already addressed the problem head-on, plus a number of supplementary approaches at hand with ready advice & experience regarding challenge questions, country blocking, etc.
I had 5 XF forums affected by the problem. I re-opened registration on the 3 smaller ones within 48 hours, waited 2-3 days for larger ones. I've also applied some of what I learned to a couple vB forums that I still have hanging around.
I'm 100% satisfied with the support and assistance here that helped me through the spam issue. "What if"s aren't worth worrying about.
And on another note (I really try not to spend too much time here
) I learned last night that a feature I need badly (tagging) has been available for almost three months in a now well-tested add-on, so near-term I'll be renewing support on 2-3 licenses and buying a new one. Onwards!
BGL
Well-known member
It's more the "as is" as in XenForo is currently an orphan product. Anyone purchasing it now has to take the bottom line position that this is as developed as the software is going to get and there is not support from the company. I made that exact decision three months ago but I have a small hobby site. For someone with a business, it would be hard to go with XenForo until the orphan status changes.
MichaelDance
Well-known member
jadmperry
Well-known member
Yeah, I disagree that it is an "orphan" product at this point. People can disagree and view it that way. But, I would not say that it is a "fact." To me, delayed roll out of next version does not meet criteria of being "orphan."
Agree, though, that people have to decide for themselves whether the product meets their needs. For me, it is so superior as a forum software and, if there was any critical need, I could hire someone to code what I need. That might not be enough for some...for me, it is. It works great and meets my needs.
Agree, though, that people have to decide for themselves whether the product meets their needs. For me, it is so superior as a forum software and, if there was any critical need, I could hire someone to code what I need. That might not be enough for some...for me, it is. It works great and meets my needs.
ManagerJosh
Well-known member
"The absence of evidence is not evidence at all"
Jake Bunce
Well-known member
Orphan = no
It has been confirmed that security updates and other urgent maintenance releases are covered as of now. Though other development has been impacted by the effects of the lawsuit. Hence 1.2 being delayed.
It has been confirmed that security updates and other urgent maintenance releases are covered as of now. Though other development has been impacted by the effects of the lawsuit. Hence 1.2 being delayed.
BGL
Well-known member
I did "move on". I purchased XenForo and built a forum KNOWING it was, as the recent announcement confirms, an orphan product. XenForo in its current form may be its final form. As a hobbyist, that's OK with me because my business does not depend on it. For an ongoing business forum looking to change its forum software, going with XenForo would be a hard decision to make until the orphan status issue is resolved.
As for "giving them a break", did that also by buying the software, knowing the issues. Can certainly sympathize with personal problems but from a business decision standpoint vs. my hobbyist standpoint, one has to make business decision for one's own benefit. It looks like a small startup with a great product is being attacked by large corporation with a baseless lawsuit simply to prevent competition. Certainly sympathize with that but also realize it could go the other way if XenForo or parts of it were developed while working for Internet Brands. Frankly, XenForo reaction of near total shutdown would lead one to believe the latter is the case. XenForo developers may have thought otherwise but lawyers may have told them Internet Brands has a case. At that point, you simply give it up. Which is what appears to have happened.
Jake Bunce
Well-known member
User
Well-known member
It doesn't really matter whether the lawsuit is baseless. What matters is what effect it has on XF development and the XF customer base. Let's say the court decides in XFs favor in January of 2013 (5 months from now! meaning it's unlikely that there will be any progress on XF before then) and IB with its comparatively infinite resources files an appeal (which they will most certainly do because they full well realize what it will do to XF). While the appeal is pending XF's development is further stifled for additional months if not years.
Wildcat Media
Well-known member
My worry isn't so much the legality of the claims--it's the venue. I keep thinking back to the recent slamming of Samsung in all that patent BS that apple sued them for. Similar to what I said earlier: it's like Ford suing GM for building a pickup truck. Smartphones today are generic commodity items. The fact that the obviously biased Judge Koh allowed the Samsung/apple trial to continue when Judge Posner threw out the apple vs. Motorola lawsuit with prejudice is all I need to raise my discomfort level. In fact, someone had also commented earlier in this forum that the judge presiding over this IB/XF matter has also made some rather spectacularly biased judgments himself. That is what I'm most concerned about. Who knows what agenda some of these judges might have?
Patents, copyright, intellectual property, etc., all need a serious reworking in the US IMHO. We need more like Posner who can see through the crybaby corporate whining and cut to the chase.
Express, or Holidome?
Bain
Active member
All I have to say is look at Apple vs Samsung.
That could happen to XenForo and the owners could end up having to pay millions in damages to vBulletin.
Don't say it can't happen. Samsung did that and you see where they ended up.
The opinion of average people does not matter. Lawyers and Judges, this is their job.
Reread the last notice put out and you can tell this issue is weighing more and more upon them. To the point where they may possibly feel they will lose. Why else is there no development updates? There may never be.
Why continue working on something that you feel may be dead because of a lawsuit and given to your competitor?
That could happen to XenForo and the owners could end up having to pay millions in damages to vBulletin.
Don't say it can't happen. Samsung did that and you see where they ended up.
The opinion of average people does not matter. Lawyers and Judges, this is their job.
Reread the last notice put out and you can tell this issue is weighing more and more upon them. To the point where they may possibly feel they will lose. Why else is there no development updates? There may never be.
Why continue working on something that you feel may be dead because of a lawsuit and given to your competitor?
Wildcat Media
Well-known member
The apple/Samsung trial was also before a known biased judge (Koh) who has made similar frivolous judgements in the past, in apple's favor. Judge Posner in Illinois probably would have thrown the suit out if it came before him, before it even got to trial. Even so, the jury foreman in that Samsung case had no clue about the concept of "prior works" (or is it "prior art"), which tilted their decision against Samsung. All this is doing now is hurting apple even more, with all the negative press and even hardcore fans starting to speak out about their abusive attitude toward patents (which cover the most trivial of generic features).
Like I've said numerous times before: when you can't innovate, you litigate.
Samsung should appeal and get a change of venue. That's the way California is, I'm afraid--some of the more crackpot judges are known to be appointed there. My only worry in this case is venue. Otherwise, given all the legal documents we've seen here, IB really has no claim to make. It's 1) sour grapes and 2) a way to exhaust a young start-up company of their funds.
Wish Kickstarter could be used to help raise funds for a legal defense campaign. Some here would probably donate just as an investment to make certain XF stays around, and stays on their game.
Like I've said numerous times before: when you can't innovate, you litigate.
Samsung should appeal and get a change of venue. That's the way California is, I'm afraid--some of the more crackpot judges are known to be appointed there. My only worry in this case is venue. Otherwise, given all the legal documents we've seen here, IB really has no claim to make. It's 1) sour grapes and 2) a way to exhaust a young start-up company of their funds.
Wish Kickstarter could be used to help raise funds for a legal defense campaign. Some here would probably donate just as an investment to make certain XF stays around, and stays on their game.
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