Add-on Classifieds for XF2
- Thread starter ichpen
- Start date
RobinHood
Well-known member
It seems to me that the standard plugin business model might not be quite right for an add on like this.
If it's to be continually supported and developed then the developer needs to ensure they're getting enough of a continuous stream of income to make it worth while.
I've been researching some web to print solutions recently where customers can design some artwork online using an embedded web based designer (think a web based photoshop lite), they then checkout and the artwork is provided to the printer to print and complete the order.
Many of the suppliers of software like this are selling their service anywhere from $100 to $1,000+ outright, then recurring 3, 6 or 12 month extensions. This can be a lot for small business starting out, or a complete bargain for large businesses. One of the companies I've found has a different approach. They charge a nominal monthly fee to the shop owner, and then take a cut of any orders processed using the software.
This makes the barrier to entry very low for small shops, and scales smoothly with the amount of orders processed.
If the shop sells 1,000 items at an average of say £20 a pop, shop owner puts £20k through the till and the design tool dev makes £350 on those sales.
If the fixed monthly fee and the percentages were right then I could see a similar model working for a high end forum classifieds system. It could also be designed to allow a cut of the sales to go to the seller too. This model could make it much more worth while to the dev, especially if it starts getting some heavy traffic classifieds forums on board with high value items.
If it's to be continually supported and developed then the developer needs to ensure they're getting enough of a continuous stream of income to make it worth while.
I've been researching some web to print solutions recently where customers can design some artwork online using an embedded web based designer (think a web based photoshop lite), they then checkout and the artwork is provided to the printer to print and complete the order.
Many of the suppliers of software like this are selling their service anywhere from $100 to $1,000+ outright, then recurring 3, 6 or 12 month extensions. This can be a lot for small business starting out, or a complete bargain for large businesses. One of the companies I've found has a different approach. They charge a nominal monthly fee to the shop owner, and then take a cut of any orders processed using the software.
This makes the barrier to entry very low for small shops, and scales smoothly with the amount of orders processed.
If the shop sells 1,000 items at an average of say £20 a pop, shop owner puts £20k through the till and the design tool dev makes £350 on those sales.
If the fixed monthly fee and the percentages were right then I could see a similar model working for a high end forum classifieds system. It could also be designed to allow a cut of the sales to go to the seller too. This model could make it much more worth while to the dev, especially if it starts getting some heavy traffic classifieds forums on board with high value items.
empire
Well-known member
@RobinHood I think Panjo does something similar:
http://community.panjo.com/t/panjo-plugin-instructions-on-xenforo/1484
The issue we had was that the classifieds listings were not completely private, and that it was sharing user information with a third party, which is not something we do. (Also, we don't charge for classifieds or profit from them, so that aspect didn't matter to us anyway.)
http://community.panjo.com/t/panjo-plugin-instructions-on-xenforo/1484
The issue we had was that the classifieds listings were not completely private, and that it was sharing user information with a third party, which is not something we do. (Also, we don't charge for classifieds or profit from them, so that aspect didn't matter to us anyway.)
ichpen
Well-known member
@RobinHood
I know what you're saying but that sort of model will be problematic to extend to pure Classifieds. By their very nature the system is mostly hands off see big classifieds systems like Craigslist, Kijiji etc. It's a one on one transaction, mostly cash based. Taking a 'cut' would involve something far more complicated both to implement and to sell to users. Don't think it would work and I can't see most users (myself included) even using something like that. I suspect most don't even want to touch payment processing for Classifieds.
I'm more than happy to pay a premium for a solid Classifieds system.
I know what you're saying but that sort of model will be problematic to extend to pure Classifieds. By their very nature the system is mostly hands off see big classifieds systems like Craigslist, Kijiji etc. It's a one on one transaction, mostly cash based. Taking a 'cut' would involve something far more complicated both to implement and to sell to users. Don't think it would work and I can't see most users (myself included) even using something like that. I suspect most don't even want to touch payment processing for Classifieds.
I'm more than happy to pay a premium for a solid Classifieds system.
RobinHood
Well-known member
Yeah, perhaps. Just throwing ideas out there. It's hard to create a product that will appeal and work for small and large forum classifieds a like at a pricing structure that's fair to all types of sites.
You could have variations of it so that you have various levels of payment processor integration, from full to some to none.
There could be zero payment processing and integration through the site. As such, the add on is a fixed cost, with fixed renewals every x months, more like a normal plugin as the site isn't necessarily making money from the classifieds. Members can list and buy for free, all payments are made externally.
Perhaps there's some premium functionality in this version where the admin can charge users to feature their listings. A one off, fixed costs for x days at a time through the integrated XF payment processor. Kind of like gumtree (the UK craigslist) or a paid sticky thread.
You could have partial integration, where the admin charges a listing fee, and/or a final value fee to sellers.
All sales are tracked though in terms of being sold or unsold. Just like ebay, buy it now, best offer accepted etc. They buyer and seller would be tied to each other for a particular transaction this way and final sales values could be tracked and reported in the ACP even if the payment is done externally between the users via paypal, bank transfer, cash in person etc. Buyer marks as paid, seller marks as money received, transaction is complete and only then can feedback be left.
This way the forum transaction for every listing would still only be between the seller and forum admin. As this format could potentially make an active classifieds a lot of money, a cut from these listing or final value fees could be tracked and invoiced/paid to the classifieds dev, similar to the example I gave a few posts back.
Or there could be full integration, where the buyer could even pay the seller using the integrated XF payment system.
Again, the forum admin and the classifieds dev would get a cut from every transaction.
This could potentially allow an escrow service too, where the site holds onto the money until the buyer has received the product and is happy with it. I appreciate many sites wouldn't want this responsibility - but maybe there are some very large sites with extremely active market places that could utilise this.
I think the partial integration option could work quite nicely though, where the sellers are the only ones who pay any money through the forum. Either as listing fees, final value fees or promotional fees.
You could have variations of it so that you have various levels of payment processor integration, from full to some to none.
There could be zero payment processing and integration through the site. As such, the add on is a fixed cost, with fixed renewals every x months, more like a normal plugin as the site isn't necessarily making money from the classifieds. Members can list and buy for free, all payments are made externally.
Perhaps there's some premium functionality in this version where the admin can charge users to feature their listings. A one off, fixed costs for x days at a time through the integrated XF payment processor. Kind of like gumtree (the UK craigslist) or a paid sticky thread.
You could have partial integration, where the admin charges a listing fee, and/or a final value fee to sellers.
All sales are tracked though in terms of being sold or unsold. Just like ebay, buy it now, best offer accepted etc. They buyer and seller would be tied to each other for a particular transaction this way and final sales values could be tracked and reported in the ACP even if the payment is done externally between the users via paypal, bank transfer, cash in person etc. Buyer marks as paid, seller marks as money received, transaction is complete and only then can feedback be left.
This way the forum transaction for every listing would still only be between the seller and forum admin. As this format could potentially make an active classifieds a lot of money, a cut from these listing or final value fees could be tracked and invoiced/paid to the classifieds dev, similar to the example I gave a few posts back.
Or there could be full integration, where the buyer could even pay the seller using the integrated XF payment system.
Again, the forum admin and the classifieds dev would get a cut from every transaction.
This could potentially allow an escrow service too, where the site holds onto the money until the buyer has received the product and is happy with it. I appreciate many sites wouldn't want this responsibility - but maybe there are some very large sites with extremely active market places that could utilise this.
I think the partial integration option could work quite nicely though, where the sellers are the only ones who pay any money through the forum. Either as listing fees, final value fees or promotional fees.
ibaker
Well-known member
Ok, I would look at fronting the money to get developed a Classifieds addon that replicates the IPS one. Plus fronting the money to get developed a full powered Clubs addon that replicates all the benefits, look and feel of the IPS one PLUS a Company Directory addon that is similar to the IPS one HERE and the XF one HERE
The problem is where would you find a decent enough developer to do it,. I would look at paying for the addons, I own the code, the developer supports the addons, the developer and I split the sale proceeds, and then once I recoup my initial investment then the developer collects all income. The caveat is that if the developer abandons the support and upgrade of the addons, I can pass them on to another developer to ensure continuity for users...as I would still own the code. It's a win all around
The problem is where would you find a decent enough developer to do it,. I would look at paying for the addons, I own the code, the developer supports the addons, the developer and I split the sale proceeds, and then once I recoup my initial investment then the developer collects all income. The caveat is that if the developer abandons the support and upgrade of the addons, I can pass them on to another developer to ensure continuity for users...as I would still own the code. It's a win all around
DragonByte Tech
Well-known member
That's certainly an ...interesting... way of looking at it. Personally there's no way in a million years I would lock myself or my company into a scheme where I would invest hundreds of man-hours into a project with the possibility of having it legally taken away from me because of a dispute with someone who legally owns the code.
I really can't see how this would be a win to the developer. The only way it could possibly be a win for the developer would be if you somehow had an accurate model of the sale rate, and the model projected that the mod would sell enough copies over a long enough period of time that you actually could recoup the investment, given that the initial investment would need to be significantly higher than normal. The developer would have to account for the man-hours spent supporting / updating the mod and bake the cost of that time (minus their estimated monthly income from sales) into the initial investment.
Let's make some assumptions:
Developer Salary: $50/hr
Development Time: 100 hours to make (it would be a lot more but let's make it easy)
Development Cost: $5,000
Weekly Support Time: 10 hours (e.g. you expect 10 hours a week of support & updates, no more and no less)
Weekly Support Cost: $500 (salary * time)
Revenue Split: $50/sale/each (sale price of the mod is $100)
If you sell 10 or fewer copies a week, then the cost of the developer's time minus their revenue would be nil. In other words, the developer would be working for you for no income beyond their normal hourly rate for two years (roughly, 100 weeks).
That is also assuming you actually manage to sell 10 copies a week, every week, for two years. You would have sold 1,000 copies at the end of those two years, and I can almost guarantee you that would never happen.
If you play around with the price to earn the developer more money / pay off their "debt" to you faster, then you will also sell fewer copies, meaning it may not even get paid off any faster.
If you play around with the price to decrease it to sell more copies, then you sell more copies yes, but the support workload will also increase. Some weeks, the developer may spend all 10 hours purely dealing with support tickets, and not getting any update work done, which again slows down the sale rate.
In other words, the only way it would make sense for a developer to agree to this would be if they can reliably predict selling X amount of copies a week for Y amount of time, then calculate how much time they would have to spend supporting the mod until the mod was theirs, and bake the cost into the initial development cost.
If you assume 5 copies a week, that would be 200 weeks in order for the initial investment to be paid off.
$500 weekly support cost - $250 weekly revenue would be $250/week in the red.
200 weeks à $250/week is $50,000.
Therefore, it would only make sense for the developer to agree to this if you agreed to invest $55,000 instead of $5,000. Obviously you can find developers willing to work for less, but like most things you do indeed get what you pay for.
The notion that revenue sharing incentivises developers to stick around doesn't hold water, I'm afraid, when we take the above into consideration. A developer may agree to work for half or a third of their normal hourly rate if they truly believe in the project, and believe it will make them big money once the mod is fully theirs. If they have such faith in the outcome, then why not make it on their own time and on their own dime, and not have to pay you anything?
---
I'd love to hear from you if you feel like I'm wrong in any of my assumptions or if I've misunderstood you / your proposed business method
Fillip
ibaker
Well-known member
2 things, you are missing the point, the developer gets paid 100% to begin with for his work so if he stops there then he has been paid, no big deal and secondly, it doesn't matter to me anymore because I have moved on from Xenforo after some 8 years and over to IPS like others which has everything to start with. It has a much more powerful Classifieds addon plus there is a fully integrated and powerful Clubs, shop, blogs, and much more. When IPS is updated all the integrated components are updated at the same time, incredible support. You don't need addons as not only are many things already included in the core but it has a powerful articles and database system so you can create your own sections, a video library, a FAQ section, anything.
If you want a great forum go Xenforo www.whatsupaustralia.com.au
If you want a powerful and complete web site, go IPS www.recreationalflying.com
The biggest reason I even looked elsewhere was the attitude of many addon developers so now not only do I not need addon developers any more but, well, a picture tells a thousand words:
If you want a great forum go Xenforo www.whatsupaustralia.com.au
If you want a powerful and complete web site, go IPS www.recreationalflying.com
The biggest reason I even looked elsewhere was the attitude of many addon developers so now not only do I not need addon developers any more but, well, a picture tells a thousand words:
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Freelancer
Well-known member
That. I like your points and the ideas. They are all valid from a clients perspective. And some forgot for whom they develop software.
ibaker
Well-known member
Yeah, I have gone to a system that is complete and when an update is released I don't have to wait for addons to be updated as it is all integrated and powerful so apart from 1 addon (which I could create using the inbuilt system anyway) I have no need for any addon developers any more. I have been bitten so many times...remember Michael who fleeced people at vBulletin and then came here and fleeced others, there is also the Classifieds story not to mention the very buggy Clubs addon and the other clubs addon that is limited, the closed book on the Resources market place, the addons that have not been converted to XF v2 and are not likely to be leaving sites damaged and making it hard for site admins with their users screaming that they don't have certain features any more etc etc etc. BUT BUT BUT, there ARE some great addon developers for XF and I want to make that perfectly clear however I personally wanted to have less drama and have a complete and reliable site that suits MY needs and MY users. XF is the best forum only software so it will suit those that just want a forum but I am competing against Facebook that also has a forum, photos, videos, file downloads, clubs in a very social environment...I wish I could just stick with XF and not need any addons and I hope that one day XF sees the light and goes the same way and add a lot more to core and release many more powerful and integrated sections for a web site.
here is what i have now, even a ticket based Help Desk and with only 1 addon that really isn't even needed and for a lot less money than paying for troublesome addons:
here is what i have now, even a ticket based Help Desk and with only 1 addon that really isn't even needed and for a lot less money than paying for troublesome addons:
Joe Link
Well-known member
I too am considering switching a fairly large site from XF to IPB. One of the main reasons is lack of a quality classifieds add-on. The other, as @ibaker has stated, is IPB's holistic approach to the core software versus XF's reliance on third party developers. There are so many nice little bells and whistles built into IPB, it'd require at least a dozen XF add-ons. I think what others have said is spot on; if you want forum software XF is best, but if you want a complete solution go with IPB.
DragonByte Tech
Well-known member
Yeah, I must have missed that part as all I saw was you saying there would be a split:
English isn't my first language, but if someone tells me "hey I'll split this with you" I would assume that means a split that is not 0/100 or 100/0.
And if you're talking about your upfront investment being considered payment for the dev's time, then I proved you wrong and I didn't see you trying to refute any of those points, so I don't think that's what you meant with this reply of yours.
Of course they are valid from a client's perspective since it's terrible from a developer's perspective.
EDIT: Also, I'm not sure if you're aware, but saying "And some forgot for whom they develop software" sounds incredibly entitled. You are not entitled to getting hundreds, if not thousands of hours of another person's time for peanuts compared to what you yourself are willing to work for. If you disagree, please feel free to go into your place of work tomorrow and tell your boss / HR: "I would like to work 30 hours of overtime for free this week. Please do not pay me any money at all for these 30 hours." and if they refuse, then donate the money you would make for that overtime to a charity of your choice.
Don't forget for whom you work. It's not for yourself, to earn a living. It's for the people who use the products / services that your place of employment provides. You should work for free because you're privileged to even get to do the job.
Fillip
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Mackeral_Fillet
Well-known member
Hey Fiilip, I’ve seen that your addon does physical product. I’ll be purchasing next week when my stock arrives 
Freelancer
Well-known member
@DragonByte Tech Some developers need hundreds and others need thousands of hours... that’s the difference between amateurs and professionals. And you can feel great to meet an entitled person for a difference. I am a self employed business owner since 15 years that always gives more than his clients expect. I also give away help for free. So I think I will ask myself tomorrow if I can have more money from me.
Your overboarding reflexive defensive and your wrong assumptions about other persons plus your lack of perception of what was actual said by iBaker will drive away admins from XF. XF Team will thank you later. And I wonder if iBaker just gave up to explain it one more time because of your bold statements. Glad you will not make any add-ons that I want.
Your overboarding reflexive defensive and your wrong assumptions about other persons plus your lack of perception of what was actual said by iBaker will drive away admins from XF. XF Team will thank you later. And I wonder if iBaker just gave up to explain it one more time because of your bold statements. Glad you will not make any add-ons that I want.
Alpha1
Well-known member
What he said was he would pay 100% of the development cost and then split the license sales, so that there can be support and future development. That is quite a nice offer it seems to me. To me it is not something to bark at.
if you think this is an unfair offer then please explain why.
DragonByte Tech
Well-known member
I already did, in this post: #47
I would agree with you that revenue sharing has some merit if it wasn't for this part:
Now, you could argue that ibaker would be understanding if the developer had to take time off for whatever reason. I don't doubt that, I'm not saying that ibaker would be looking for the tiniest (or indeed any) excuse to take the product away from the developer and cease all revenue sharing.
I am saying that if it is legally possible, then it is in everyone's best interest to not implicitly trust the other party. If I want to buy your car, I don't just stuff an envelope full of cash and mail it to you, just because you super promised to mail me back the pink slip and the keys. We would use an escrow service, or meet up somewhere to sign the contract and do a bank transfer via mobile banking. Not because we don't trust each other per se, but for our own peace of mind and safety.
The only way splitting license sales would ever make sense for a developer was if the initial investment was significantly higher in order to make up for the lost revenue from post-development sales. I don't know about other developers, but if someone wants to retain the legal ownership of the code that we produce, the hourly rate goes up to match the projected lost revenue from us being unable to sell the addon (or use its code in other addons) after the fact.
In other words: It would be a risk for the developer to undertake work at a reduced rate, compared to what they would normally charge if they relinquished all ownership rights to the code, and to lock themselves into a set term before ownership is transferred. It may not be a huge risk to some developers, it may be a risk that's worth it to some developers, but it is a risk.
If a product is completed to the client's specifications, they've signed off on it and they're happy with it, doesn't that fulfil the developer's contractual obligations in a normal scenario?
If a developer has said "it will take 100 hours to complete this work, and my rate is $50/hr, so the total cost is $5,000" and then completes the work to a satisfactory standard that the client has agreed is complete, then how does it make sense for the developer to agree to share ownership of the code?
I don't understand that.
Can you (or anyone) explain to me how this would in any way be good for the developer?
Fillip
Alpha1
Well-known member
You may be right, but exactly the opposite is true as well. Why would the investor want to give the ownership to you? Its not a given that the developer is always the owner of rights. Especially if the investor designs the features. Its a rhetorical question and the answer all boils down to what each party finds reasonable and the agreement made.
If you find the offer by ibaker appealing or not is up to you and depends solely upon what you find reasonable. Just as the same goes for the investor.
The obvious answer to your question is that the developer is paid an hourly wage for a project that would else not been there. If the same amount of man hours would be spent on custom work then the rate would likely be the same. Correct me if I am wrong, but that is how many features for my addons have been created.
As I see it a developer has some choices:
If you find the offer by ibaker appealing or not is up to you and depends solely upon what you find reasonable. Just as the same goes for the investor.
The obvious answer to your question is that the developer is paid an hourly wage for a project that would else not been there. If the same amount of man hours would be spent on custom work then the rate would likely be the same. Correct me if I am wrong, but that is how many features for my addons have been created.
As I see it a developer has some choices:
- not create the addon
- create the addon while making the full investment by himself, and after release gaining the full license sales. This puts the risk on the dev.
- create the addon for a reduced fee, and after release gaining the full license sales. This takes away some of the risk.
- create the addon while taking investment from a client and then in some form reimburse the client. This puts the risk on the client.
ibaker
Well-known member
And there is a 5th one...
5. The Client engages the Developer to develop a solution for the client. The client pays the Developer for the solution and they part ways...job is completed.
Now the Client who has invested money in having a solution developed for him releases the solution and decides to engage a 2nd Developer to support the solution on a 50/50 income agreement until the initial investment is returned then the Support Developer gains 100% of all sales.
The first Developer (due to his attitude) misses out on any future earnings that could go on for years especially when XF upgrades and the opportunity exists again to charge the full 100% again and obtain many more years of income.
All further clients will feel more at ease purchasing the solution knowing that their site will not be wrecked when XF upgrades hence even more sales could occur.
This is the problem with low end developers, Customer Service is a concept they haven't realised yet. Did you know that of every $1 spent on marketing, 90c is spent in trying to get new customers and 10c is spent getting new customers by keeping existing customers happy. I know I would rather only spend 10c to get new customers than 90c.
The other thing is also in business is the tool often used called the 4 P's of marketing...Price, Place, Product and Promotion. However many debate of even a 5th P of Propriety (conformity to conventionally accepted standards of behaviour or morals ). You could have the best Price, Place, Product and Promotion but if the company behind it is bad no one will buy from them...take for example a company that tests their products on animals...they can't even give their products away. So here we have the question of Support, Customer Service, and most importantly ATTITUDE and it is these areas that are destroying XF's name and most of the addon developers for it.
Have a look at the list of addons that are available for XF v2. Most are what I categorise as 3rd level addons, there are very few 2nd level addons and no real Level 1 addons that satisfy the 5 P's of marketing.
Now XF had an opportunity to gain much extra income from v2 by adding Level 1 addons to the fold and satisfying it's core customer base of Power Users and then release the individual extras that they did include like remodeled ACP, extended css etc etc etc as incremental enhancements whilst they gained the extra income from the Level 1 addons...heck, that income could have even paid for an extra developer to help bring things to their customer base faster. Instead, XF listened to the developers and adding things into XF v2 to assist them, the very ones that are causing the, in my opinion, the downfall of XF. I, along with many others have gone to IPS, and many that are emailing me that they are going to no matter what I say:
For example:
Also in my opinion XF is now 5 years behind the times and driven by the those that speak the loudest rather than those that have a concern and are bashed by those that speak the loudest...I have more interaction with XF customers by personal email than in the forums here now which is what led me to IPS in the first place and all I can say now is WOW what a product that is, what fantastic support I get, the great interaction I enjoy with other IPS users and their advice without the ATTITUDE as it is one of genuine concern and assistance no matter what level you are.
Hey, I offered a solution that I believe would assist not only developers but also XF itself and all it's customers but if that can't be seen then...I rest my case and say no more
5. The Client engages the Developer to develop a solution for the client. The client pays the Developer for the solution and they part ways...job is completed.
Now the Client who has invested money in having a solution developed for him releases the solution and decides to engage a 2nd Developer to support the solution on a 50/50 income agreement until the initial investment is returned then the Support Developer gains 100% of all sales.
The first Developer (due to his attitude) misses out on any future earnings that could go on for years especially when XF upgrades and the opportunity exists again to charge the full 100% again and obtain many more years of income.
All further clients will feel more at ease purchasing the solution knowing that their site will not be wrecked when XF upgrades hence even more sales could occur.
This is the problem with low end developers, Customer Service is a concept they haven't realised yet. Did you know that of every $1 spent on marketing, 90c is spent in trying to get new customers and 10c is spent getting new customers by keeping existing customers happy. I know I would rather only spend 10c to get new customers than 90c.
The other thing is also in business is the tool often used called the 4 P's of marketing...Price, Place, Product and Promotion. However many debate of even a 5th P of Propriety (conformity to conventionally accepted standards of behaviour or morals ). You could have the best Price, Place, Product and Promotion but if the company behind it is bad no one will buy from them...take for example a company that tests their products on animals...they can't even give their products away. So here we have the question of Support, Customer Service, and most importantly ATTITUDE and it is these areas that are destroying XF's name and most of the addon developers for it.
Have a look at the list of addons that are available for XF v2. Most are what I categorise as 3rd level addons, there are very few 2nd level addons and no real Level 1 addons that satisfy the 5 P's of marketing.
Now XF had an opportunity to gain much extra income from v2 by adding Level 1 addons to the fold and satisfying it's core customer base of Power Users and then release the individual extras that they did include like remodeled ACP, extended css etc etc etc as incremental enhancements whilst they gained the extra income from the Level 1 addons...heck, that income could have even paid for an extra developer to help bring things to their customer base faster. Instead, XF listened to the developers and adding things into XF v2 to assist them, the very ones that are causing the, in my opinion, the downfall of XF. I, along with many others have gone to IPS, and many that are emailing me that they are going to no matter what I say:
For example:
Also in my opinion XF is now 5 years behind the times and driven by the those that speak the loudest rather than those that have a concern and are bashed by those that speak the loudest...I have more interaction with XF customers by personal email than in the forums here now which is what led me to IPS in the first place and all I can say now is WOW what a product that is, what fantastic support I get, the great interaction I enjoy with other IPS users and their advice without the ATTITUDE as it is one of genuine concern and assistance no matter what level you are.
Hey, I offered a solution that I believe would assist not only developers but also XF itself and all it's customers but if that can't be seen then...I rest my case and say no more
Freelancer
Well-known member
@ibaker that was a great analysis of the whole situation. I couldn’t have said it any better. Especially that part:
Great perception that I absolutely do second. And to close the circle to my earlier (offending) remark above: when you do everything to please the developers and not to please the clients (those who pay your rent) then you ignore basic marketing principles.
And do I feel “entitled” to say that? Hell yes, I am working in marketing since 23 years now. 15 years of it self-employed. So spare me any more of the “developer is king” attitude ******** in general.
Great perception that I absolutely do second. And to close the circle to my earlier (offending) remark above: when you do everything to please the developers and not to please the clients (those who pay your rent) then you ignore basic marketing principles.
And do I feel “entitled” to say that? Hell yes, I am working in marketing since 23 years now. 15 years of it self-employed. So spare me any more of the “developer is king” attitude ******** in general.
DragonByte Tech
Well-known member
It depends if the client paid for the rights or not. Like I said in my post, it's perfectly possible for a developer to charge the client more if the client wishes to retain all or some of the rights to the resulting code.
If a product can be expected to make $5,000 over the course of its lifetime, then not accounting for that projected revenue when billing the client (if the client wishes to retain all rights) would be an oversight on the developer's part.
Sure, but you are forgetting the opportunity cost. If I choose to spend X hours on a project (including all the negotiations and feedback etc), that's X hours I don't get to spend doing anything else (such as other projects, or just the day-to-day development of my company's products).
Having to turn down other opportunities, pushing back a big feature release that many customers are clamouring for, etc... All of this adds up to opportunity cost, the value of other opportunities that are mutually exclusive with the opportunity that's being pursued.
In other words, it's not right to say that whatever money the developer makes from taking on this project is 100% net profit, as that fails to take opportunity cost into consideration.
To give an actual example; if someone told me they would give me $500 for 40 hours of work, and someone else told me they would give me $1,650 for 40 hours of work, then accepting the first offer would be rather silly, as the opportunity cost is way higher than if I accepted the second offer.
That being said, I do concede that I was overly harsh in my initial reply to the idea. It is, of course, up to each developer to assess what they would consider to be fair. It would not be right to say that I would never consider a revenue sharing scheme, as there's a literal infinite combination of terms that could make it seem fair on our end as well as on the client's end.
Fillip
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