California Case Update

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On a note, I saw that IB's expert witness appeared to be incessantly blabbering on about the phrase system (and memory management) and styling system employed by XenForo and vBulletin, and their similarities.

What striked me as odd was that he said:

"Right now, sort of the state of the art that you can find anywhere is something called CSS, which I think stands for Cascading Style Sheets, which were an innovation in their own time. It eventually became standardized. It's the way that you go in and get your system to look like the way you want it to look.
But using CSS still requires a certain amount of design sophistication and technical sophistication. There are people who offer classes on it all the time. The mere fact that you have to take a class how to use CSS should tell you that it's not for everybody.".

Has anyone seen any of these CSS classes? CSS was originally designed to be simple. I personally disagree with his stipulation and opinion that knowledge of CSS would require a certain or great amount of technical and design sophistication.

I'm will also at some point go through vB 4.0-1.0 to try and find the "Zend" (framework?) usage that he says is used.
 
Jake Bunce said:
We will see what the judge thinks on Jan 7. If the judge thinks that the material facts are in dispute then it must go to trial. Otherwise we may see a ruling on some or all of the claims before they ever go to trial.
Click to expand...

I think Jan 7 will be used to clear away a lot of the undergrowth, then a selected few will be examined at trial. After so long it is not a big deal to wait a further month or six weeks to actually have a trial. With no trial IB has more scope for grievance and appeal on technicality.

IB has already dropped the claim of copying code but retains a blurred claim of copying or re-using system elements. This seems to be 90% solid rubbish but here and there it could probably be wiggled that some item or other was not freely available at that time in open source, or in use by other software as standard. That would be the kind of thing which the judge on Jan 7 could say is not obviously clearcut, so must be argued out by expert witnesses who really know software, in court.
I would expect this to be OK for XF but over all I do think a court case is necessary to close loopholes that could give rise to appeal by IB. Also the more thoroughly this case is closed against IB the easier it is for the UK system to say they refuse to do a re-run.
In the longer term to get closure thoroughly and avert appeal, and also to block the UK court case too, it's beter to have a little more delay now. Jan 7 to say Feb 15 is not that long.
 
Shamil said:
On a note, I saw that IB's expert witness appeared to be incessantly blabbering on about the phrase system (and memory management) and styling system employed by XenForo and vBulletin, and their similarities.

What striked me as odd was that he said:

"Right now, sort of the state of the art that you can find anywhere is something called CSS, which I think stands for Cascading Style Sheets, which were an innovation in their own time. It eventually became standardized. It's the way that you go in and get your system to look like the way you want it to look.
But using CSS still requires a certain amount of design sophistication and technical sophistication. There are people who offer classes on it all the time. The mere fact that you have to take a class how to use CSS should tell you that it's not for everybody.".

Has anyone seen any of these CSS classes? CSS was originally designed to be simple. I personally disagree with his stipulation and opinion that knowledge of CSS would require a certain or great amount of technical and design sophistication.

I'm will also at some point go through vB 4.0-1.0 to try and find the "Zend" (framework?) usage that he says is used.
Click to expand...

Shamil I agree this is all very odd. CSS is not something I personally find comfortable but that's because I used basic html for so many years - the kind with tables I learned back in 1997. Changing technique is ghastly because on the old one I didn't have to think and my fingers did it. But if you came straight to CSS I don't think it would be hard.
There are classes in it but only as part of general webdesign with html, ftp etc. So you can dfo an evening class in websites if you like. I've taught little groups like that occasionally. Most don't go that way and learn from the various self tutors on the net. Or a mate shows them the basics.
But that's NOT a high level professional skill. More like a high school level certificate. Here it's part of the (EDL) European Driving License qualification which is modular units for little certificates.

Was the Phrase system in use by other softwares? I remember using it on VB3 surely, not a big new thing for VB4? I THINK it was IPB too?
Did VB4 have a simplified Style Properties system like XF? I think I tried VB4 only briefly so I don't .
remember.
Memory management I haven't a clue - dat clever stuff.

But it's somewhere in this stuff will be the fuel for an actual court trial I think. Because it is not obvious to a layperson and needs to be argued by experts.
 
Shamil said:
On a note, I saw that IB's expert witness appeared to be incessantly blabbering on about the phrase system (and memory management) and styling system employed by XenForo and vBulletin, and their similarities.

What striked me as odd was that he said:

"Right now, sort of the state of the art that you can find anywhere is something called CSS, which I think stands for Cascading Style Sheets, which were an innovation in their own time. It eventually became standardized. It's the way that you go in and get your system to look like the way you want it to look.
But using CSS still requires a certain amount of design sophistication and technical sophistication. There are people who offer classes on it all the time. The mere fact that you have to take a class how to use CSS should tell you that it's not for everybody.".

Has anyone seen any of these CSS classes? CSS was originally designed to be simple. I personally disagree with his stipulation and opinion that knowledge of CSS would require a certain or great amount of technical and design sophistication.

I'm will also at some point go through vB 4.0-1.0 to try and find the "Zend" (framework?) usage that he says is used.
Click to expand...

What is his point?
 
XF's lawyers make a strong and compelling case for Kier and Mike...I really hope the judge sees it in the same light and if not and it goes to trial, that a jury will. Merry Christmas everyone!
 
Morgain said:
Shamil I agree this is all very odd. CSS is not something I personally find comfortable but that's because I used basic html for so many years - the kind with tables I learned back in 1997. Changing technique is ghastly because on the old one I didn't have to think and my fingers did it. But if you came straight to CSS I don't think it would be hard.
There are classes in it but only as part of general webdesign with html, ftp etc. So you can dfo an evening class in websites if you like. I've taught little groups like that occasionally. Most don't go that way and learn from the various self tutors on the net. Or a mate shows them the basics.
But that's NOT a high level professional skill. More like a high school level certificate. Here it's part of the (EDL) European Driving License qualification which is modular units for little certificates.

Was the Phrase system in use by other softwares? I remember using it on VB3 surely, not a big new thing for VB4? I THINK it was IPB too?
Did VB4 have a simplified Style Properties system like XF? I think I tried VB4 only briefly so I don't .
remember.
Memory management I haven't a clue - dat clever stuff.

But it's somewhere in this stuff will be the fuel for an actual court trial I think. Because it is not obvious to a layperson and needs to be argued by experts.
Click to expand...

I thought learning to drive in London was harder than learning CSS (but may that's just me).

I haven't look at the phrasing system used in other softwares, so I can't really comment, but the thing about memory management, there are only so many ways that you can do a phrasing system given the tools and what's available. He was explaining how most software use flat files with loads of translations to phrase things. Obviously, these things can he quite large and rather complicated.


Jake Bunce said:
What is his point?
Click to expand...

That StyleVars and style properties are essentially the same.

You can have chunks and there are so many chunks that you can pick off a shelf, but you need creativity to make a block out of two chunks. I believe that's what he kept on saying, or to that effect. People follow patterns.
 
Shamil said:
"Right now, sort of the state of the art that you can find anywhere is something called CSS, which I think stands for Cascading Style Sheets, which were an innovation in their own time. It eventually became standardized. It's the way that you go in and get your system to look like the way you want it to look.
But using CSS still requires a certain amount of design sophistication and technical sophistication. There are people who offer classes on it all the time. The mere fact that you have to take a class how to use CSS should tell you that it's not for everybody.".
Click to expand...
That's amazing. Anyone who doesn't know for sure what CSS stands for (it *is* cascading style sheets) isn't an expert in web development.
It's state of the art like automatic gearboxes are state of the art. They may have been state of the art a few years ago, but now every modern website absolutely would use CSS. Like he says, it's standard. Couldn't live without it, to be honest.
Using CSS requires no sophistication at all. It's basic stuff.
Not for everybody???? Indicated by the fact that you can get classes on it???
You can get classes on the simplest of things. It means nothing.
If those are quotes from a supposed web expert witness, I'd say IB have chosen poorly.
 
Looking up CSS history gets its development in the 1990s.
Wikipedia continues:

The CSS Working Group began tackling issues that had not been addressed with CSS level 1, resulting in the creation of CSS level 2 on November 4, 1997. It was published as a W3C Recommendation on May 12, 1998. CSS level 3, which was started in 1998, is still under development as of 2009.
In 2005 the CSS Working Groups decided to enforce the requirements for standards more strictly.

All says that CSS was very far from "cutting edge" when VB4 and XF were being developed.
That CSS3 was still developing in 2009 means nothing as any good code is an ongoing development process.
 
Stuart Wright said:
That's amazing. Anyone who doesn't know for sure what CSS stands for (it *is* cascading style sheets) isn't an expert in web development.
It's state of the art like automatic gearboxes are state of the art. They may have been state of the art a few years ago, but now every modern website absolutely would use CSS. Like he says, it's standard. Couldn't live without it, to be honest.
Using CSS requires no sophistication at all. It's basic stuff.
Not for everybody???? Indicated by the fact that you can get classes on it???
You can get classes on the simplest of things. It means nothing.
If those are quotes from a supposed web expert witness, I'd say IB have chosen poorly.
Click to expand...
He probably understands everything about CSS, it sounds more that he's trying to cause confusion.

Your average person doesn't understand CSS, or have any inkling on whether it has been a standard for years or not.
 
"Right now, sort of the state of the art that you can find anywhere is something called CSS, which I think stands for Cascading Style Sheets, which were an innovation in their own time"
Click to expand...

"BACK IN MY DAY WE USED TABLES FOR THAT"

throw this guy out on his ass, he's an expert on dinosaurs
 
D.O.A. said:
"BACK IN MY DAY WE USED TABLES FOR THAT"
throw this guy out on his ass, he's an expert on dinosaurs
Click to expand...

Yes that's exactly what I said - back in my day we used tables for that - and a lot easier and more flexible it was too.
But it's one thing to wail that 10 -15 years ago we didn't have to mess with this pesky CSS - and another very different thing to claim as he does that CSS is "state of the art."
Then he contradicts himself and says "that you can find [it] anywhere." So that means we're all using it. He admits it "became standardized. "
So maybe he meant by "state of the art"just the state of the current software tech, though usually "state of the art"means more like the cutting edge.

But then he says: "using CSS still requires a certain amount of design sophistication and technical sophistication." Well yes, just like html and js does. Not very much sophistication them. Like batty old dears like me can do it!
"There are people who offer classes on it all the time." Yes I 've done little classes sometimes - for 11 yr olds or business people simply never had time to learn the very basics.
"The mere fact that you have to take a class how to use CSS should tell you that it's not for everybody." Actually most people who use it DON'T take any class. You just look up bits you need on W3.
But a class doesn't make something exclusive and expert. Think learning the alphabet, cooking a standard meal, basic puppy training, basic car maintenance, or writing a standard business letter. All these can be learned in classes like standard webdesign including CSS. But they can be learned on an everyday basis too.
 
LOL! Css is something you need a class for WTF!...where the hell do they get these expert witnesses from and how do I get hired...I want to get paid for doing nothing and making up stories surround things other people do.


You want a witness..call me....I taught myself everything I know about css and I would challenge that expert witness to give me a drawing or an image file and I will make him a page that matches it exactly in a couple of hours tops. Then I will proceed to tell him and anyone else listening that I did this all by teaching myself...and asked anyone that has worked with me...I don't work with any sort of sophistication when it comes to webdesign...I do my own damn thing...


that is not something you need to go to school for....

Code: 
.navTabs .navTab.PopupClosed .navLink {
    border: 6px solid #6E4910 !important;
    border-bottom-left-radius: 16px !important;
    border-bottom-right-radius: 16px !important;
    box-shadow: 1px 1px 10px #4D3412 inset, 2px 1px 1px #4D3412 inset, -2px 0 1px #4D3412 inset, 0 0 46px rgba(110, 73, 16, 0.37) inset, 0 0 42px rgba(110, 73, 16, 0.37) inset, 0 0 1px rgba(110, 73, 16, 0.37) inset, 0 0 2px rgba(110, 73, 16, 0.37) inset !important;
    color: #D0D0D0 !important;
    margin-right: 2px !important;
}





even twisting php into css isn't that crazy....
Code: 
.completewrapper
    {
    width:400px;
    height:400px;
    background-image:url('<?php echo $user_profile_background_image_url_https0;?>');
    background-repeat:no-repeat;
    background-color:#<?php echo $user_profile_background_color0;?>;     
    background-position:top;
    background-height:100%;
    background-size:400px 400px;
    border-radius:14px;
    box-shadow:inset 0px 0px 5px 1px #000000, 0px 0px 27px #<?php echo $user_profile_background_color0;?>;
    margin-left:auto;
    margin-right:auto;
    margin-top:auto;
    margin-bottom:auto;
    }


Shamil said:
That StyleVars and style properties are essentially the same.
Click to expand...
essentially in function....wouldn't an example of my code above be pretty much the same as a style var or style property...is it not literally variables?
 
Anyone who believes there will be s ummary judgement entered on Jan 7th hasn't been paying attention. This will go to trial. I expect an actual trial will begin sometime during the summer and last about 6 weeks. So, if we're lucky, this should all be over by fall of 2013 for good.
 
digitalpoint said:
Hahahahaha... Who besides IB developers needed to take class to learn CSS?
Click to expand...

If only the guy who put something like 50 css classes on VB5 html tag did take one, we would have been spared this agony...

HTML: 
<html id="htmlTag" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US" lang="en-US" dir="ltr" class=" js flexbox no-touch hashchange history rgba hsla multiplebgs backgroundsize borderimage borderradius boxshadow textshadow opacity cssanimations csscolumns cssgradients cssreflections csstransforms csstransforms3d csstransitions fontface generatedcontent cookies no-bgpositionshorthand cssfilters lastchild boxsizing mediaqueries no-overflowscrolling cssremunit no-subpixelfont pointerevents cssresize cssscrollbar filereader placeholder fileinput formvalidation no-firefox no-opera">
 
On a much happier note, I got my Christmas present from Zend and Oracle... on Christmas Day. Fantastic. Now, which postman is working on Christmas Day, because the letters certainly weren't in my letterbox yesterday.
 
Fred Sherman said:
Anyone who believes there will be s ummary judgement entered on Jan 7th hasn't been paying attention. This will go to trial. I expect an actual trial will begin sometime during the summer and last about 6 weeks. So, if we're lucky, this should all be over by fall of 2013 for good.
Click to expand...

I agree that a summary judgement Jan 7 is very unlikely and not really desirable.
But you don't back your strange claim for such a long schedule with any reasoning or evidence. Against that I have seen plenty of reasoning by others who know legal stuff to indicate a trial in Feb, early March latest.

Court date will be set Feb 7 (think I got the day right)
Submissions have been done so it's just a matter of booking the court date and collecting a jury. Shouldnt take more than a month tops. (Which has already been stated by our legal folk - several times.)
Length of trial is always flexible and IB will try to drag of course. But really there's not much to it. The judge has had plenty of time to absorb the brief due to an extra unnecessary year of delay. He will be able to direct the court to the main points, and cut off unnecessary IB waffle and tantrums. Hopefully a day or two,
a couple of weeks if unlucky.

Fred this isn't just aimed at you. On the home stretch now tension is going to rise.

Please try to remember that every time you throw out doom and gloom you are causing distress to real people here.
Unless there is real hard evidence for negative statements the most powerful way WE can HELP the case Is to keep up morale, stay cheerful, and help everyone else to.
If there is real hard evidence for negative statements then it should be stated. Mere hints and opinions are being destructive and working against XF.
Unsupported negative statements are NOT useful.

I can accept chirpy little cheerful statements without evidence as well meant, and helping reduce gloom, they certainly do no harm. But downer statements with no evidence, no facts, no reasoning, are just useless yuck that help no one.
 
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