XenForo needs a blog with regular updates from Kier & Mike

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Paul M said:
What do you have against Adrian ? (who btw is not a Community Manager).
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I don't have anything personal against him...I don't know him. I was using him as an example because that's what he was originally brought in to be (I thought) and that was his background with IB. I used him as an example also because I don't think he has been all that successful at vB as a one stop shop for information. He is a corporate mouthpiece and that's not what XF needs. If they need anyone in a role like that, they already have the best they could probably get in Paul Brogan.

I think Kier explained XF's position best in his post above. I doubt very seriously he and Mike are oblivious to or don't care about the topic raised by the OP. They started this thing with their own vision based on years of success in the field and I, for one, would be disappointed if they allowed themselves to be diverted from that because of "group think". I, personally, don't want a "roadmap" - I want them to do what they do best and do it their way...that is what has brought us this far quite successfully I think.
 
John said:
I don't have anything personal against him...I don't know him. I was using him as an example because that's what he was originally brought in to be (I thought) and that was his background with IB. I used him as an example also because I don't think he has been all that successful at vB as a one stop shop for information. He is a corporate mouthpiece and that's not what XF needs. If they need anyone in a role like that, they already have the best they could probably get in Paul Brogan.

I think Kier explained XF's position best in his post above. I doubt very seriously he and Mike are oblivious to or don't care about the topic raised by the OP. They started this thing with their own vision based on years of success in the field and I, for one, would be disappointed if they allowed themselves to be diverted from that because of "group think". I, personally, don't want a "roadmap" - I want them to do what they do best and do it their way...that is what has brought us this far quite successfully I think.
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*installed* (y)
 
Kier said:
This thread has gone way out of control and were it not for the important points some have raised I would be closing it for the benefit of community harmony.

We have said from the very outset that people should make their decision to buy XenForo based upon what they can see, what we have already delivered, rather than some promise of future functionality. The marketplace in which XenForo resides is extremely fluid and a plan to develop one feature may be shelved at a moment's notice in favour of a feature that we decide is more beneficial. That is a major strength of XenForo - the genuine agility with which it is developed.

With 1.0.0 we have delivered what we consider to be a world class forum system with an extremely robust and flexible add-on system, with the express intention that our limited development resources would be complimented by the development skills of third parties who can develop add-ons that have exactly the same level of access to the system as core code. There is no reason that third party add-ons may not be of equal quality to code released by XenForo Ltd., and in order to foster this third party development we make no limitations on third parties to only advertise free-of-charge add-ons here. We want people to develop high quality commercial add-ons for XenForo.

The issue of effort duplication has been raised. "I don't want to develop Product X because XenForo Ltd. might be working on something similar." This is an occupational hazard, and one shared by XenForo Ltd. themselves. We don't know that certain features we may have planned for the future are not already in development by third parties, and the XenForo add-on system means that we most certainly cannot be sure that the official XenForo version of the feature will be better than the third party version. This is free market competition, and the way to deal with it is to do one's very utmost to ensure that one's own version of a feature is the most desirable.

Like it or not, we are a very small development team doing our best to compete with much larger rivals. Some of that competition is friendly, some distinctly less so. While we develop fast, a great deal of time is spent developing features before any code is written. Often, the amount of time spent writing code is a fraction of the actual development time for a feature. As a result, in order to maintain a competitive edge, it is necessary to keep the development of certain features close to our chest, in order to prevent rivals from benefiting from work we have done before we are able to do so. You only need look at what our competitors have done since the appearance of XenForo to see that this is true.

Is XenForo standing still? Of course not. One need only look around the forums to see that a public request for IPB data has been made, and that the IPB importer is in its final stages of testing. It's possible to look at the bug report forums and see that far from allowing bugs to accumulate, active development work is underway to deal with issues as they are reported. We are at version 1.0.0, and naturally the focus of development is on shoring-up that platform such that work in earnest can begin on our next feature release. To shift focus to 1.1 before fixing issues in 1.0 would be irresponsible and would do a disservice to those already running XenForo in production. When the priority switches, we will make it known in an appropriate way, and we will accompany that announcement with as much information as it is appropriate to release at that time. We have not collected together postings where we have talked about 1.1 features so far, because these posts represent firm intentions rather than a concrete commitment to deliver those features. It is therefore inappropriate to collect them into something approximating an announcement of future development policy.

I'm sorry if some people are unhappy with the speed of development or the information we have released. We have made no secret from the very beginning that we are a very small but extremely dedicated team doing their best to deliver the highest possible quality software. We can't make everybody happy all the time, and all we can say is that you should look to what we have already achieved and ask yourself if there is any reason that our future development would not live up to the same standard.
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Since I'm the thread starter and due to the fact that I liked Kier's post, I ask moderators to close this thread in order to prevent further discussions between the members. Thank you.
 
::nods::
Seems like everything that needs to be said (and a lot more! ;) ) has been. Good on ya for requesting it be closed jscieza!
And an excellent reply from Kier, as usual. I know how long it can take to craft that comprehensive and tactful a reply, nice job. :)
 
I must say I find Kiers lack of information on what he had to eat today most distasteful.

:ROFLMAO:
 
Fair enough. If we're gonna leave it open for comment:
Kier said:
The issue of effort duplication has been raised. "I don't want to develop Product X because XenForo Ltd. might be working on something similar." This is an occupational hazard, and one shared by XenForo Ltd. themselves. We don't know that certain features we may have planned for the future are not already in development by third parties, and the XenForo add-on system means that we most certainly cannot be sure that the official XenForo version of the feature will be better than the third party version. This is free market competition, and the way to deal with it is to do one's very utmost to ensure that one's own version of a feature is the most desirable.
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With all due respect, I think Kier might possibly be underestimating the faith most people have in XenForo Ltd's ability to deliver a best of breed solution :). I'm pretty sure that following the release of an "official" product that covers a major functionality area (Gallery, Blogs, CMS, eCommerce etc.) there will be a mass migration from 3rd party apps to the official version. It's not *just* about feature-set, it's also about the rock solid belief that the product will be well maintained in the future, many people are loath to use *anything* that's not core, and often for pretty good reasons.

There will obviously still be room for different solutions, after all the "official" solution may not work well for all communities. The latest release of IP.Gallery is a good case in point, it's a good product, but many folks can't currently use it (though that may well change) because their community has different needs. It's essentially an impossibility to be all things to all people. The nice thing about the fundamental extensibility of the platform is that functionality introduced for an "official" product could be extended and repurposed for something that tackles something either in a different way, or addresses a totally different need.

3rd party devs for XF are likely to be far more agile in being able to build solutions for perceived needs, and that will mean a LOT down the road IMO.

Anyway, I appreciate Kier taking the time to clearly outline his thoughts and concerns and the reasoning behind the existing policy regarding future plans.

As so many people have said so far, it's still VERY early in the life of the company and the XF Platform. As all things do, I'm sure things will evolve over time. The important thing is that things are moving forward as they have been all along, and the various concerns have been voiced and heard. I certainly look forward to watching the future unfold. :)
 
I think in my case the problem stems from when I first saw and used XenForo and it was probably the most amazing forum experience, and at a time when vB4 was clearly a complete fail. This created a huge amount of expectation that it would contain all the features of vB3 (features which my community has grown fat on, and won't be easily removed) and the elements of XenForo that made it so good. So am I being impatient by wanting it all now? Probably - and it's not helped by having an EOL vB3 forum.

But you know even after reading Kier's post I still feel those of us "waiting for that feature we need to switch" shouldn't be ignored - some kind of indication of what features which are already included in other packages and are definitely in the pipeline for Xenforo would be hugely reassuring and a big incentive to hold off from buying IPB or alternatives.

The thing is Kier, once we've gone we've gone for a good few years. It would be a shame if you lost customers who simply needed their mind put at rest that XenForo would be suitable for their community in the near future.

I've been into the suggestions forum and read the pinned post by Mike. After re-ordering the posts by most liked I can see the features I want are amongst the most liked - custom fields and notices as examples. So I have made sure I've added my "like" too. I'm still in the dark though - that's just a forum of features people want. It's not an official list of features still to be added. So again, it's a case of lack of tangible information :)
 
Tigratrus said:
And an excellent reply from Kier, as usual. I know how long it can take to craft that comprehensive and tactful a reply, nice job. :)
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Frankly I would've preferred it if Kier used the time it took to write that post to code some more features for XF!!!
Just kidding...

Many thanks for the useful post Kier, it sure clarified many of the important points raised and maybe now we can be harmonious again.
 
James said:
Frankly I would've preferred it if Kier used the time it took to write that post to code some more features for XF!!!
Just kidding...

Many thanks for the useful post Kier, it sure clarified many of the important points raised and maybe now we can be harmonious again.
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"La La La La..."
"Hmmmmm..."

:: harmonious noises ::

I thought about using "Me Me Me Me" instead of "La La La La", but given the whole EGO issue, it seemed ill-advised. ;)
 
To be honest I come here. Look at Announcements and see it is still 31....... and look at Have you seen and it is still 28......... and then check back, a few days later and repeat. Been doing this since it went Gold.

I checked out IPB last night and was blown away by their communication.

I'm still on VB, and see communication improving on and off.
 
akia said:
Big difference is that when you buy a new car you buy it as is, you get the finished product and ford are not going to send you new bits of the car that have been updated. Their future plans don't have any effect on what you've bought.

If you bought a car on the premise that when they brought out a new model your car would be updated as well then I think that you'd want to know what's planned or being worked on as it has a material effect on you.
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That's a fair point. But equally, if you buy XF now you know and accept that its not as complete as say VB, but you know the other features will be added in due course. You can see from my sig that XF hasn't got the things I need to migrate, but I know it will have relatively soon and I'm in no urgent need to move.

Although I accept that if you need to move now - its a case of bad timing.

To be honest, I can see both sides on this as I as a customer want to know when I can plan to move the sites, but I'll only know this if they release a roadmap that they stick to. From the developer point of view, roadmaps only ever create sticks for people to hit you with. It really is a catch-22 and a no-win scenario for any developer, let alone two who are having to defend themselves from baseless law suits from larger competition.

It'll be simple really, those who understand and can wait will do, those who don't and can't won't. Anyone who runs a VB forum can see the breath of fresh air that is XF, especially if you have a coding background - its with this in mind that I'm quite happy to wait.

As long as its not too long.... when's the infraction style system going to be ready again? ;o)
 
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