vb5 beta released, and...

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ibaker said:
As said...
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You'll spend just as much time and money or more on modifications etc for a vB4 or vB5 than xenforo. I've spent way less commissioning addons for xenforo than I have when I was on vBulletin 4. Not saying xenforo is cheap. Just saying the developers here really love the forum software that much that they won't charge you hundreds of dollars for something that's really easy for them to do thanks to how easy it is to create stuff on xenforo.
 
ibaker said:
IPB - going quite a long time, communicates to their customers about the future and has a very powerful and stable product
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Problem with IPB is that while the product is stable, it is also very bloated in its code-base (for the reasons I describe below). Things take circuitous routes to draw anything on-screen (a bit like VB), while demanding expensive hardware just to perform elementary functionality. In other words, it will always scale badly, and feel more sluggish to your users. It will never have a near real-time performance, I.e. as if you were browsing your own local computer files or something, ie. -- 1-sec response time. And in case you think no web application can have that, see this:

http://xenforo.com/community/threads/real-world-page-loading-speed.1215/


ibaker said:
XF - very young
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Consider that XF's efficiency is not an artifact of it being young, but a design feature from it first being announced. Its whole architecture, and just ask add-on devs, its whole API structure, were arganized around this. IPB (not to mention VB) is never going to be able to reach that kind of efficiency, short of rewriting their code from scratch. And the reason IPB has been able to stay afloat unlike VB was by keeping the bloated "working" legacy code-base from 8-9 years ago.
 
R_A said:
Problem with IPB is that while the product is stable, it is also very bloated in its code-base (for the reasons I describe below). Things take circuitous routes to draw anything on-screen (a bit like VB), while demanding expensive hardware just to perform elementary functionality. In other words, it will always scale badly, and feel more sluggish to your users. It will never have a near real-time performance, I.e. as if you were browsing your own local local computer files or something, ie. -- 1-sec response time. And in case you think no web application can have that, see this:

http://xenforo.com/community/threads/real-world-page-loading-speed.1215/


Consider that XF's efficiency is not an artifact of it being young, but a design feature from it first being announced. Its whole architecture, and just ask add-on devs, its whole API structure, were arganized around this. IPB (not to mention VB) is never going to be able to reach that kind of efficiency, short of rewriting their code from scratch. And the reason IPB has been able to stay afloat unlike VB was by keeping the same standard bloated "working" code-base from 8-9 years ago.
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*clicks link

Holy crapacologist!
 
ibaker said:
I have been waiting patiently for the release of vb5 so I could make my all important final decision of moving my last, and main site, back to vb...sorry, I can't handle the lack of progress and communication in XF...BUT, after having a little play with vb5, and yes I know it is BETA, now everything is pointing to either hanging around with XF on a maybe or just say "STUFF IT ALL" and go to IPB.
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After researching forum products sufficiently, and for the same reasons already mentioned above about both VB and IPB being extremely bloated, server hogs, that will never sufficiently deliver a fast experience to your users, I am one very happy person to invest in Xenforo add-ons and the product.

Regardless what happens between Kier and Mike, Kier is a genius when it comes to writing forum software. That means... I think they both deserve time out due to the stressors them and their family are under from this IB nonsense lawsuit. It will all be over soon, first up next year... then people can make all the decisions they need.

I guarantee though, just knowing VB's history, VB5 will not be a usable product by then. IPB will still be a bloated pig trying to impress for performance, when it is anything but streamlined. IPB have a long way to go in that area of their product.

At some point Kier is going to get back to doing what he does best, being developing forum software and products. Based on how successful XF has already been in the marketplace, I see no reason why it wouldn't go forward once the lawsuit is in the past.

That means, products. The resource manager is done, we can all see that. It isn't released yet because they need time off due to all the nonsense of this suit. They deserve that IMHO... as XF still kicks the crap out of VB and IPB for performance, functionality and is adequate for features.

Anyone making moves before that court hearing, is insane IMHO.

Me... I'll keep using it after the fact, regardless. Users are eating it up. My site has tripled in two years using XF compared to 5 years using VB. Google absolutely loves XF coding, especially now that a significant gain is achieved in Google for fast loading websites versus clunky slow pages.
 
Anthony Parsons said:
Me... I'll keep using it after the fact, regardless. Users are eating it up. My site has tripled in two years using XF compared to 5 years using VB. Google absolutely loves XF coding, especially now that a significant gain is achieved in Google for fast loading websites versus clunky slow pages.
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Same, in fact even since Ashley's last announcement, I have purchased 2 more 2nd hand licenses. I am the least bit concerned for this products future. I can feel it in my gut that great things are ahead for xF in 2013 and your gut is never wrong..
 
Anthony Parsons said:
especially now that a significant gain is achieved in Google for fast loading websites versus clunky slow pages.
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That's an excellent point: Google now puts higher in the rankings websites that load faster. Wow, that actually compounds XF's existing SEO advantage, and may make things like vbSEO obsolete. And vbSEO was largely what VB sites depended on to try and stay competitive.
 
Personally, I think anyone that considers that all will be good after January 2013 thinking the lawsuit will be "over" is perhaps very naive...after the Judge's verdict is handed down there will be at least another 2 more years of waiting for appeals etc to finish...If the legal case has any impact in your analysis of making a decision, as in my case, you would be thinking a resolution in at least 2 years time, not Jan 13
 
ibaker said:
Personally, I think anyone that considers that all will be good after January 2013 thinking the lawsuit will be "over" is perhaps very naive...after the Judge's verdict is handed down there will be at least another 2 more years of waiting for appeals etc to finish...If the legal case has any impact in your analysis of making a decision, as in my case, you would be thinking a resolution in at least 2 years time, not Jan 13
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If that happens, so be it! xF runs amazing on PHP5.4, so no worries of end of life PHP support there and 1.1.3 runs great as a whole, as it is now it runs far better then vB or any other forum. Only thing missing in 1.1.3 is IPv6 support.. though I have heard rumors of a 3rd party developer working on that already.
 
I have over 300 collective customization (modifications, template edits, skins, add-ons, and 3rd party products) and my site still loads faster than vBulletin, IPB, phpBB, SMF, ect..ect.. stock installed without their add-ons.
 
ibaker said:
Personally, I think anyone that considers that all will be good after January 2013 thinking the lawsuit will be "over" is perhaps very naive...after the Judge's verdict is handed down there will be at least another 2 more years of waiting for appeals etc to finish...If the legal case has any impact in your analysis of making a decision, as in my case, you would be thinking a resolution in at least 2 years time, not Jan 13
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Based on what? While appeals are possible, it is not the case that IB as a losing party would just be able to get a "do over," and appeal willy nilly. Facts found are generally not open to appeal, you need to have a legal issue that the trial court got wrong. So far, I don't see anything that would suggest an appeal by IB would be in the offing (though, on the other hand, I think that XF, should it lose, has a viable appeal on the question of jurisdiction in the first case).

January 13 is the trial date. It likely will not last for more than a week, but, there are post trial motions that are possible. (And, I would expect that to be the case, with motions for attorney's fees and costs to be decided). Still, I would not be surprised if by the end of January there is not resolution enough to allow XF to move forward.

There is a demand for a jury trial in this case, so the judge will not give a verdict. It will be a jury. The Judge can set aside the verdict, though, if the evidence is legally insufficient to establish liability or if as a matter of law, XF is entitled to judgment in its favor.

The issues, to be sure, are complicated. My point is that people should not think that appeals will be automatic or will necessarily eat up additional time. They could, but it is premature at this point to really speculate as the course of trial could raise issues and you can't know until the end of the case what issues are truly in play.
 
Yep, as far as its been reported KAM have filed for reimbursements of legal costs, which is a hefty penny and could even allow hiring additional developers. Meanwhile, VB have a new product they've sunk all their money into, and a very rocky start for it to say the least. So yeah, if it ever comes to trial, things could suddenly get very difficult for IB, very fast.
 
ibaker said:
Personally, I think anyone that considers that all will be good after January 2013 thinking the lawsuit will be "over" is perhaps very naive...after the Judge's verdict is handed down there will be at least another 2 more years of waiting for appeals etc to finish...
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What jadmperry said...

People keep assuming IB can just appeal. The last documentation is already demonstrating the lack of evidence presented, and also the judges tolerance for IB's nonsense with appeals and motions, kicking those into touch and forcing IB into court first up next year. Like stated... if IB don't bring some facts to the table, credible facts, not this "he said, she said" nonsense this whole thing is based upon right now, IB won't have any grounds to appeal. They also won't have any grounds to continue with the UK lawsuit either. No doubt they will try, but they have the best chances in US court versus UK courts, which are far more fact to law ratio driven. No emotion, no sympathies in a UK court... fact to law. If they can't play on some sympathies available to them via US jury, they have no chance in the UK. It won't even make it to hearing through the UK system, it will get kicked at the preliminaries.
 
Let's be realistic.. vB4 was released about what, 2 years ago? In this time it never quite reached the level it needed to be, much less the level promoted in the pre-sale. Sure, the forumsoftware appears to be decent now, but then we started off from vB3.x, which all ready had decent software. So it basically took about 2 years to get back to the level we started from.

Now, vB5 has been released. That probably means that vB4 will soon see a whole lot less attention, if any. vB5 put up the demo, which I can only give them credit for. It's just such a big step forward from the pre-sale stuff with vB4. Unfortunately, the demo just isn't that good. The forum product, which was good in vB3 and became decent again after 2 years vB4 is now bad again. That's without even considering stuff like CMS and blogs that are still missing. All of this wouldn't be a problem if they had released it as a demo, and asked us to help with it. I'm fairly sure the responses would have been so much better, because vB finally asked customers help and took it seriously.

Unfortunately, they also put it up for sale. Which means they want money. A lot of money. And while most companies of course want to earn money, it seems like the only motive for IB to do anything. It also means vB5 will probably see a "gold" release fairly soon. vB5 might eventually become a decent product again. But, how much time will thát take? And once it's getting close to decent, how long will it take for vB6 to come out and require you to put in your money and faith again? How long will it take for thát to become decent? They ditched free support tickets this time, probably hoping to gain some income over time again, by selling the ticket / phone support. Smart move, I suppose. Not very friendly after everything they put us through though. They could have kept support for the people with a vB4 suit license, and for new licenses and people upgrading from the forum license, they could ask to pay for support. Oh well.

The point is, history is repeating itself at vB, and I'd rather not go through certain things again. I've spent enough time on fixing my forum and all its modifications that broke after the release of a new version, the patch for the new version, the fix for the patch and the patch to the fix to the patch.
 
Paul M said:
The number of members [accounts] is meaningless, the only test is multiple people online at the same time, it doesnt matter what day they registered, or even if they registered at all.
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I understand that Paul. My comment was more along the lines that when one is registered one will be more likely to easily return thereby more people online at any given time. When one needs to reregister every day (unknowingly) it may deter those that have already stopped by and due to past experiences, give up trying to recover a lost password etc.

A notice in the registration email, or a notice when registering that your registration is only for that particular day may be useful. Anyway, Wayne explained why it is being done. This way staff doesn't have to moderate individual posts but rather wipes them daily. One that note though Paul, wouldn't greater post counts affect such things as search and forum displays?
 
What dumbfounds me is not only the current state, but not having the CMS, Blogs, etc available until "later".

Why even bother releasing anything if it's not the complete product? Take the time, do it right, and do it so it's complete.

I'm certainly not going to go through the presale rape that I went through last time.
 
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