AmericanForum.com
Well-known member
Interesting that no politician in America or Britain for that matter talks about imitating the German education system.
Tuition fees in the UK to rise.
- Thread starter Shamil
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Interesting that no politician in America or Britain for that matter talks about imitating the German education system.
Jo.
Well-known member
I think in some parts of Germany higher education is free, and the places where fees are charged, it's not expensive at all. I'm not sure what constitutes "post-secondary education" in Germany though. In Britain, secondary education is only up to age 16 (after which school is not compulsory), but if you want to get A-levels or IB (either of which are needed for university admission) it's free to stay at school either at a sixth form college, or at a senior school that includes further education.
AmericanForum.com
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steven s
Well-known member
Is there an income tax in Germany? Sales tax? VAT? How is it funded?
Hatsu
Member
Because it's socialism
It's not admissible that rich people visit the same universities than poorer people. So you have to fight socialism in its beginnings.Of course, there is an income tax. For most people it's 48% (companies of course pay way less), VAT is 19%.
Fred Sherman
Well-known member
The idea that so many things that people want should be "rights" is exactly what has pushed governments into unsustainable debt in the first place.
Anytime people decide the work of another is their right, then it falls upon a third party, usually the government to pay. But all that does is transfer the burden of payment to someone else who isn't getting anything in return. This is usually done through taxation of the so-called "rich"
But this is a lie too, because the tax codes of most countries view corporations the same as an individual, so "the rich with incomes greater than..." are usually corporations with net profits of greater than whatever cap politicians use to fuel class envy.
When you take that profit from a corporation, you limit their ability to invest in their business. This doesn't maintain the status quo, this kills businesses because reinvestment is necessary to maintain the status quo. Capital expenditures - computers, printers, furniture, trucks, planes, etc - all age and deteriorate over time or become obsolete as technology advances.
So what happens is companies cut the on thing they can, jobs and pay, which in turn reduces the taxes that governments collect and increase their social program payments: unemployment, welfare, healthcare, etc.
The goverment attempts to offset the deficit spending through increasing taxes and the vicious cycle continues.
Those hardest hit are small businesses. A 2 million dollar a year business is a small business, but is also among "the rich" in class envy politics. They would have you believe the rich are the problem, but the top 1% of earners paid more than the bottom 95% combined., the bottom 50% pay nothing at all, and 27% no only pay nothing, but actually get a check on top of that.
In fact, at least in the US, it is better for a couple with a child to make $14,500 per year than $60,000 per year when you consider income from government assistance of the former compared to the tax burden of the latter. The net is that the couple making $14,500 per year ends up with $3K/year more in disposable income.
Too many people want to claim the work of others as their right without fair compensation. Thats nothing more than theft.
Ask yourself some very important questions:
1. Who employs more people, rich or poor?
2. Who creates more jobs, innovates industry and improves quality of life, rich or poor?
3. Who pays the majority of taxes already, rich or poor?
4. Who contributes more to charity, rich or poor?
If you want to fix the economics of nations and the world, the solution isn't more taxation, its less spending. The solutions isn't mores taxes ont he rich, its less (proven by Kennedy, Reagan and Clinton in the US). The solution isn't to get what you want by calling it a right, but rather working hard for it. The solution isn't more government, its less. The solution isn't taxing the rish more, but taxing ALL income at all levels equally (flat tax). The solution is to take the tax code out of the hands of politicians who use as to buy votes.
AmericanForum.com
Well-known member
I have a cousin in Germany and he told me (this was over a decade ago) that it was free provided
he was sponsored by a company to study and he would also work at the sponsoring company as part of the practical portion of his education.
Can anybody confirm if this was and is still the case ?
steven s
Well-known member
That is an indentured servant.
Hatsu
Member
Such an education is still provided by companies. Even the state offers such an education. You have to work for the company after finishing for several years. I think there are similar opportunities in other states, too. It's nothing special for Germany.
AnthonyCea
Well-known member
The banks and universities are in bed together in America just like auto dealers and banks work together.
Who makes money on student loans ?
Companies will have to start their own programs to train workers (trucking companies have their own schools here) or provide scholarships, grants or whatever to pay for education since there is a shortage of engineers, nurses, doctors, teachers and other professionals in the USA.
This is why we bring our doctors and other professionals in from India, China and other nations because we just don't have enough qualified Americans, maybe due to our failing educational system.
Who makes money on student loans ?
Companies will have to start their own programs to train workers (trucking companies have their own schools here) or provide scholarships, grants or whatever to pay for education since there is a shortage of engineers, nurses, doctors, teachers and other professionals in the USA.
This is why we bring our doctors and other professionals in from India, China and other nations because we just don't have enough qualified Americans, maybe due to our failing educational system.
Hatsu
Member
As long as more and more full-time workers have to claim benefits to make their living AND their companies realise profits they should be taxed. They let the state pay their workers. Every company paying a worker not enough for a living and making profit should be taxed with 90%. I don't know how the situation is in other countries but in Germany more and more low-paid jobs are developed and our politicians just watch. The trickle down effect is just a myth but infinite greed has been already proven.
Blandt
Well-known member
Its free provided you don't decide what to learn.
That's the biggest misconception we have here in the US : in fact you DO DECIDE
if your math is inadequate, your physics is less than "physics" then you have decided what you want to do !isn't that right ?
same goes here in private schools .. your grades decide for you what you can and cannot take
Blandt
Well-known member
Kim
Well-known member
In Australia University level education was free up until 1988 when Higher Education Contribution fees where introduced, (by men who had benefitted from a free higher education it has to be said) and funding for universities was changed, rewarding those universities with a focus on vocational and applied research as opposed to pure or academic research.
The amount paid by students is weighted by the potential earnings of the end degreee, so a BA costs less than a Medical or Legal degree etc, most are between $6000 and $20,000 per year full fee paying, but we also have a system of the money not needing to be repaid until after the individiual is earning above X amount of $, then it is collected via a higher tax rate for those individuals.
22 years of this has lead Australia to universities that are now education factories for full fee paying foreign students, and "co-operative research with industry" as opposed to pure or academic research (who needs Nobel prizes and new breakthroughs anyway right!!!)
And... conversely it has also lead to a dramatic decline in local university intakes in "lesser" degrees with smaller earning potential, and an oversupply of lawyers and business degree undergraduate students, with a result that we are desperately short of many of the required professionals in this country.
I am not a fan of the sort of education fees we currently have, it has failed on all levels, and I believe we need to urgently redress this, also the focus on "usefulness" or vocational aspects of education really irritates the heck out of me. If as a nation, all you focus on is vocational training, or industry funded research, or that all degrees should be 'useful' then as a nation you are poorer and stupider.
Someone needs to be doing the thinking in a society, we have to stop only valuing that which is commercial and earns money, it honestly disgusts me this whole greed culture.
The amount paid by students is weighted by the potential earnings of the end degreee, so a BA costs less than a Medical or Legal degree etc, most are between $6000 and $20,000 per year full fee paying, but we also have a system of the money not needing to be repaid until after the individiual is earning above X amount of $, then it is collected via a higher tax rate for those individuals.
22 years of this has lead Australia to universities that are now education factories for full fee paying foreign students, and "co-operative research with industry" as opposed to pure or academic research (who needs Nobel prizes and new breakthroughs anyway right!!!)
And... conversely it has also lead to a dramatic decline in local university intakes in "lesser" degrees with smaller earning potential, and an oversupply of lawyers and business degree undergraduate students, with a result that we are desperately short of many of the required professionals in this country.
I am not a fan of the sort of education fees we currently have, it has failed on all levels, and I believe we need to urgently redress this, also the focus on "usefulness" or vocational aspects of education really irritates the heck out of me. If as a nation, all you focus on is vocational training, or industry funded research, or that all degrees should be 'useful' then as a nation you are poorer and stupider.
Someone needs to be doing the thinking in a society, we have to stop only valuing that which is commercial and earns money, it honestly disgusts me this whole greed culture.
Kim
Well-known member
No offense Fred,
but that is an entirely American perspective, most of the rest of the world doesn't think or act that way.
Our government is not crippled by debt, and our perspective on many things including what is or isn't a right is obviously very different to yours.
One of the reasons we are not crippled by debt, and why we have sailed through the GFC is because our governments do spend money, and because all of our citizens are treated in a fair way we don't have the massive crime rates you do.
You are of course welcome to your Free market capitalist view point, but I would ask that you please don't try to impose it on the rest of us
Thanks
steven s
Well-known member
I think government and companies only look at short term goals, not long term.
Education, whether it's academic or technical is long term. I don't think government/business are able to see the forest through the trees.
Kim
Well-known member
I agree with you Steven, which is why governments have no place in trying to determine the worth of academic endeavour.
steven s
Well-known member
When you write the check, you get to say how the money is spent I guess.
Jo.
Well-known member
In the UK, having a masters degree in science doesn't get you a much higher paid job than if you have just a bachelors... and if you have a PhD there's not much in it between the amount you could earn compared with those with just a masters degree. In the States, the difference in payrolls between those groups is huge compared to over here. Scientists are not particularly valued in this country in my opinion. It certainly feels that way anyway. It's all about business and marketing etc. If you study one of the sciences as your 'major' then you don't expect to end up earning a fortune and so you tend to do it because you enjoy it. I like that in a way but I sure do wish that our government would value our country's scientists more!!
CFodder
Well-known member
That's because they're only in for a 3 or 4 year term and are basically only interested in what will keep them in power. Speaking of our government only, since the mid-80's it seems they've lost the ability to think long term and are happily deluded by their own spin doctors.