Safari push notifications coming to macOS and iOS

[digitalpoint]

Well this is nice...

• PWA push notifications
• Installed PWA apps don't open in Safari (thank God), so they aren't bound to just Safari any longer (was going to be sad if push notifications meant I had to start using Safari).
• 5G standalone mode

 

[cwe]

Well this is nice...

English for the Plebes, please!

 

[eaststandboy]

How can I activate push notifications on my forum?

 

[Paul B]

Android and Windows already supports it.

For iOS you will need to wait for an updated XF release.

 

[Ivancas]

For iOS you will need to wait for an updated XF release.

I hope iOS will be supported by then, or even Apple will still exist

 

[Kirby]

Is it now the same way what Android phones have for almost a decade now? Same feature?

No. Apple places additional restrictions on push notifications that are not present on Android:
The PWA must be installed and the mode must be set to standalone.

Currently, XenForo does not set PWA mode to standalone on iOS as iOS is lacking controls for "Go back" and "Reload" in this case.

So for users to be able to use push on iOS

1. XenForo needs to change the manifest (and implement GUI for Go Back / Reload if desired)
2. Users must install the PWA

(Based on information found on xenforo.com, I don't use apple hardware)

 

[sbj]

So for users to be able to use push on iOS

1. XenForo needs to change the manifest (and implement GUI for Go Back / Reload if desired)
2. Users must install the PWA

Thanks. So even if XF implements the GUI elements, in any case the users must install the PWA or what?

What a bummer. So just visiting the site via the browser is not enough, we must make them to install the PWA?

 

[Kirby]

So even if XF implements the GUI elements, in any case the users must install the PWA or what?

Exactly.

So just visiting the site via the browser is not enough, we must make them to install the PWA?

Yes.

 

[Chris D]

“Make them”. They either want push notifications or they don’t. If they do, then they probably won’t care too much about adding your forum to their Home Screen. Which is basically 3 taps plus you get your branding on their phone and it’s easier for them to launch in your site.

Even if it didn’t require those steps, you probably still wouldn’t be able to make them enable push notifications unless they wanted to.

 

[Kirby]

I can’t imagine a scenario where Android doesn’t end up doing the same tbh. It does make sense.

It doesn't make sense to me, in fact I think it's a serious limitation.

I've turned on notifications for a few websites (like xenforo.com which I use from the browser), but that doesn't mean I want those websites to clutter up my apps,.
Being forced to install PWAs for all of them is not an option for me so I'd rather turn off notifications in this case (which is also bad).

But that just seems "the apple way of nannying the user" instead of giving freedom of choice - one of the reasons I try to avoid apple as much as possible.

 

[Paul B]

Same.

I use push notifications but I don't use PWA - I don't like it.

 

[sbj]

“Make them”. They either want push notifications or they don’t. If they do, then they probably won’t care too much about adding your forum to their Home Screen. Which is basically 3 taps plus you get your branding on their phone and it’s easier for them to launch in your site.

Even if it didn’t require those steps, you probably still wouldn’t be able to make them enable push notifications unless they wanted to.

I don't want to complain or anything, just thinking about usability. From my experience people are lazy and they don't like to tinker with things. So it is not about them not caring too much, but the steps required might be just inconvenient.

There is a great example for this. Since EU forced websites to have the cookie consent reminder, now all websites offer it. The problem is most people are annoyed by that and automatically they click on "accept all" because it is convenient and it requires just 1 click compared to manually choosing and de-selecting things.

So right now when I visit XF, it asks me if I want to enable push notifications. That is very convenient and it is done with 1 click. But if it asked me to install it as PWA, then it gets complicated unless it is also done by 1 click?... And you have to implement that first, too since I don't think XF has an option to ask for PWA?

Also, say we made them install it as PWA, will the push notifications work on browser, too or just on that home screen app version?

 

[Paul B]

I don't want to complain or anything, just thinking about usability.

Tell them to use Android.

 

[digitalpoint]

Im probably the minority, but to me it makes sense to require it as PWA. At least until there’s an “advanced” mode users can opt into (off by default). Just thinking of non-power users like my grandma and what her phone would look like as far as push notifications when every random site she ends up on is blasting her with push notifications.

Then all of a sudden you have users pissing and moaning how ****ty their iPhone is because it just spams them constantly. It’s more than just making it annoying.

 

[sbj]

I understand and agree, but not sure how random sites can end up blasting her with push notifications without her giving her consent? Obviously PWA or not there shoud be a setting to opt-in or not (off by default). Just like we have for Android right now, no?

The problem is having extra steps will just mean most of users not using the push option. But as site owners we want it as much as possible, because it increases activity by a lot. We can't afford that majority of users never using it, not even realizing that there is such an option.

I remembered that I've got a poll about this actually. Feel free to participate so we have more results.

 

[digitalpoint]

I understand and agree, but not sure how random sites can end up blasting her with push notifications without her giving her consent? Obviously PWA or not there shoud be a setting to opt-in or not (off by default). Just like we have for Android right now, no?

Because a large majority of users are just clicking stuff or mis-clicking or you get spam sites trying to trick you into enabling push notifications. I'm fairly technical and even I've accidentally "opted into" push notifications unintentionally before and then I have to go digging for the push notification settings to undo that. At least with PWA it's a very deliberate thing users are choosing to do (and not accidentally mis-clicking something).

The problem is having extra steps will just mean most of users not using the push option. But as site owners we want it as much as possible, because it increases activity by a lot. We can't afford that majority of users never using it, not even realizing that there is such an option.

If a user don't want to do the extra step, they probably don't really want push notifications to begin with. Think quality over quantity here. Would you rather have 10,000 users who WANT push notifications and engaging with them or would you rather than 100,000 users who don't really want them, not engaging with them but can't be bothered to figure out how to disable them?

Thinking about "bigger picture"... if push notifications are too easy to "opt into", you end up with users never allowing them or just disabling all notifications from their browser, because they would be lumped in with the "app" (the browser). On iOS, the site becomes an app as far as settings go... so you can control the type of push notice or even if you want push notices on a per app (site) basis. So imagine if the push notifications were just for Safari and then an unrelated site just starts blasting you with spam push notices. Users are going to simply disable push notifications from Safari at that point (and affecting the ability of YOUR site to site push notifications).

There's a lot of things at play... I'm all for an "advanced mode" setting buried deep somewhere that allows power users to send them all to a singular app (the browser), but hopefully those users also know how to disable push notifications for a single site that is spamming. Wouldn't be a good idea to have non-power users doing it that way by default imo.

Additionally, having it as a PWA allows for some other trickery. For example your “app” icon on the home screen can have counters that get updated behind the scenes with the push payload… like how a mail app shows how many unread emails you have, it could show unread XF alerts.

 

[sbj]

It is hard to argue against Chris or you since you guys know it better almost always, but I can't help myself disagreeing with you.

If I had to choose between 10k who want push and 100k who don't really want them, I would always go with the 100k. Because the 10k is already included in them, since they will go with it no matter what, but having the extra 90k is just a bonus. It is like the old Google game. Would I want 100 active users or 100k visitors through Google? I want the possibility of converting those random visitors to real regular visitors. Just like I want those 100k "so-so" users who don't really want push but I want the opportunity to introduce it to them and to convert them wanting the push.

I think for websites when it comes to users/visitors it is always quantity>quality. Activity is so essential that nothing can beat it. And our forums need the visitors, need the interaction. And if push is the way to go, then be it. The more we can reach the better.

I really don't see any advantage for an "advanced mode" hiding this stuff behind settings buried somewhere. As a visitor, I see your angle, you are worried about spam. But we are website owners, we must do what is best for the site unfortunately.

But I am not advocating to spam the visitors or to abuse the feature or somehow trick them. It all depends on how it is implemented. So I have to see it first and make a judgement based on that. Right now theoretically I want it as easy as it can be for the user. No hurdles, no annoying stuff, 1 click to-go. What is the worst thing can happen? Them disabling it? Well, right now the number for iOS push users is 0 anyway. So we can only win from here on, even if some disable it back after enabling it. Obviously I want the retention of active push notification holders high and imo PWA is doing the opposite of it. Not many will use it. But this is without knowing how the end-product looks, just based on theory.

 

[digitalpoint]

We'll see how it plays out once it's a live feature. But my gut is (so far) telling me that as a end-user, I'm going to prefer PWA mode even if you could get push with or without PWA on iOS. Generally speaking, I wouldn't subscribe to push notifications for many sites... in fact, probably only my own and this site. I've been using Telegram/Slack/Discord for years (even since XF1) to receive alerts/"push" notices from my own sites (see this thread). Being able to group alerts by a site is a huge thing for me (for example with Telegram, each site's alerts go to a different channel). On a desktop machine where push notices are all going to a single app (Chrome), they get lost... and honestly I don't even bother to look through them other than the most recent one from all the sites because they are grouped by application. For example (site note... the Telegram and Discord push notices originated on XenForo as well [see second screenshot]):





The upside of having PWAs treated like a true app is that end users are going to have more granular control... they will see the most recent push notice for the site, rather than the application. They get the full "app settings" control over push notifications on a per site basis... you can change sounds on a per site basis, you can change if they modal/badges on a per site basis. Throwing all the push notifications for every site into a single app is just going to be a cluster**** of a zillion push notices that just going to the browser without being able to have any control of differentiating between sites (it would be like throwing every post in a forum into a single thread... users aren't going to bother at some point). Hopefully XenForo leverages the push notification badges (where you can set the number on the "app" icon). So users will be able to see how many unread alerts or conversations messages there are.

Maybe I'll change my mind as an end-user when it's rolled out for XenForo, but I do know from experience (using Telegram for XenForo alerts/push since 2015) that being able to group alerts/push notices by site is a huge thing from an end user standpoint... at least if you want users to actually read them. Site/app grouping > application grouping for sure.

 

[arn]

We are testing the PWA thing for pushes from our blog. Curiously, when you visit our Xenforo forums from that PWA, Xenforo does recognize and offer pushes to your iOS device, and sends you the success message via Push.

But then... other pushes don't work, and it seems I'll have to wait for next Xenforo version for that.

 

[Moshe1010]

Works so far with an add-on, but needs a bit more testing with various situations: