Negative responses on suggestion threads

[Mouth]

If you can suggest things which will be added to other peoples sites when they upgrade...you should be prepared to argue/debate your point with the people who don't want those things added to their site...if you are not prepared to do that you basically want more stuff for free and don't want to hire a developer and just want everyone to shut up to get your way and have your needs added to their site.

I find this a very myopic view of add-on development and audience growth.
In mature environments, very few customers wish their favourite products didn't grow and expand. By adding extra functionality, they bring in fresh ideas and appeal to a broader audience.
Adding cruise control to a car, and allowing a customer to turn it on and use it or leave it off, does not add bloat or weight. It just makes the car appeal to a broader audience and helps to ensure the models longevity and aftermarket support. Wanting to restrict an XF add-on's functionality solely because you don't want it, often means your asking the developer not to grow their add-on functionality or audience appeal.
As for wanting more for free, that too is not often the case. I think many would be happy to see an add-on's price increase if more functionality was added. If you don't want that functionality then don't turn it on (all good developers, IMHO will ensure that functionality can be enable/disabled) or don't want the price to increase, then the argument could be turned around for you to go and hire a developer to create just the features you want.
Ultimately, a customer should not have to feel they need to justify or argue for their request/suggestion for increasing add-on functionality to other customers on the sole premise that other customers don't want it. It's for the add-on owner and developer to decide what that wish to add to their product. If I was an add-on developer and it was my thread that customers were arguing and intimidating other customers against their suggestions, I would very quickly shut them down. It would be my choice alone as to whether functionality was added to my product or not, and I wouldn't let herd mentality and intimidation decide.

 

[EQnoble]

I find this a very myopic view of add-on development and audience growth.

In mature environments, very few customers wish their favourite products didn't grow and expand. By adding extra functionality, they bring in fresh ideas and appeal to a broader audience.

Mature people don't summarily label all who oppose them fanboys, that is a highschool lunchtable mentality. not seeing that is myopic.

Adding cruise control to a car, and allowing a customer to turn it on and use it or leave it off, does not add bloat or weight. It just makes the car appeal to a broader audience and helps to ensure the models longevity and aftermarket support.

So while you bring up cars let's bring up an example... adding lets say a garage management software is suitable for a core forum product and I shouldn't say why I think it is a waste and why i feel my money is being wasted by supporting a software which clearly favors automotive interests?

Wanting to restrict an XF add-on's functionality solely because you don't want it, often means your asking the developer not to grow their add-on functionality or audience appeal.

I'm not asking the developer anything...if you have the ability to suggest something and support it with details, I have the right as a paying customer to say my opinion on it. Thinking you have the right to say something and I don't is pretty immature. And again we are talking about core xf not addons.

As for wanting more for free, that too is not often the case. I think many would be happy to see an add-on's price increase if more functionality was added. If you don't want that functionality then don't turn it on (all good developers, IMHO will ensure that functionality can be enable/disabled) or don't want the price to increase, then the argument could be turned around for you to go and hire a developer to create just the features you want.

How much custom work do you do surrounding xf and how many people have you talked to about working on their site to gather this information? Again we are talking about the core xf product and not addons which are not needed to run XF so please stop manipulating the direction of what I was saying.

Ultimately, a customer should not have to feel they need to justify or argue for their request/suggestion for increasing add-on functionality to other customers on the sole premise that other customers don't want it. It's for the add-on owner and developer to decide what that wish to add to their product.

And I shouldn't have to justify why I am against it, but you are making me...like a mouthy bully...but I am willing to because I don't feel like the whole world should agree with me automatically because I say something without explanation though what you are saying is that once someone suggests something it is immune from scrutiny even by another equally valued customer of XF who may or may not leave the platform if development starts favoring individuals who can not be asked questions or posed with opposition to their suggestions...sorry the world doesn't work that way if it did this thread wouldn't exist and you wouldn't be arguing with me.

If I was an add-on developer and it was my thread that customers were arguing and intimidating other customers against their suggestions, I would very quickly shut them down. It would be my choice alone as to whether functionality was added to my product or not, and I wouldn't let herd mentality and intimidation decide.

But it is not your addon, this is for core xf software and I am a customer with a valid opinion just like you who is basically telling me I am immature for not being part of a herd which you later talk down on like you are not suggesting imposing the same thing from the other side. Like right now, you suggested I was immature in my attitude because I won't treat another adult like a child and just shut up and let them have their way like a lazy parent would.

However going off of your logic and to be frank...if the system was setup like you were suggesting (which is you telling XF how to run their company but I am sure you would let them make their own decision right? ) then threads would be locked and only the thread creator could post and only likes would be available to everyone else.

But that's not the way it is.

As far as herd mentality...that is EXACTLY what you are proposing to start enforcing...a system you are suggesting would be ripe for manipulation because all you would have to do is privately contact enough people who already are your friends and a suggestion would be implemented popularity contest style...but someone like me who wont game the system will never have a suggestion implemented because I can't talk in that thread, no one can pose opposition and I wont msg all my internet friends to support my idea.

There are no arguments in a herd...you either run the pack or follow behind with the rest being ousted and that is what you are suggesting here...a controlled herd that benefits your operational preference.

 

[Dakota Storm]

I find this a very myopic view of add-on development and audience growth.
In mature environments, very few customers wish their favourite products didn't grow and expand. By adding extra functionality, they bring in fresh ideas and appeal to a broader audience.
Adding cruise control to a car, and allowing a customer to turn it on and use it or leave it off, does not add bloat or weight. It just makes the car appeal to a broader audience and helps to ensure the models longevity and aftermarket support. Wanting to restrict an XF add-on's functionality solely because you don't want it, often means your asking the developer not to grow their add-on functionality or audience appeal.
As for wanting more for free, that too is not often the case. I think many would be happy to see an add-on's price increase if more functionality was added. If you don't want that functionality then don't turn it on (all good developers, IMHO will ensure that functionality can be enable/disabled) or don't want the price to increase, then the argument could be turned around for you to go and hire a developer to create just the features you want.
Ultimately, a customer should not have to feel they need to justify or argue for their request/suggestion for increasing add-on functionality to other customers on the sole premise that other customers don't want it. It's for the add-on owner and developer to decide what that wish to add to their product. If I was an add-on developer and it was my thread that customers were arguing and intimidating other customers against their suggestions, I would very quickly shut them down. It would be my choice alone as to whether functionality was added to my product or not, and I wouldn't let herd mentality and intimidation decide.

Devolopers are more likely to add/leave out new features by gauging customer response. If only 5 people want a certain feature integrated in to core and 200 are against it/ would rather it be an add-on. Then it's probably less likely to be interested as core. So by posting a suggestion, you are going to get other customers question it, what's the suggestion for? Does it really need to be core? Will it benefit the wider community or just a select few niche forums?

These are not personal attacks, these are legitimate counter questions that give the suggester an opportunity to pull in more support by further explaining their idea and engaging discussion to convice the devs that it is needed/wanted. The more people that you convice that it's needed, the more people that will click that like button on you're OP.

However, too many people don't see it that way, and would rather wallow in the misbelief that they are being attacked.

 

[Mr Lucky]

Calling anyone opposing your ideas a fanboy is denigrating anyone who may pose an argument before they even do it and not just the one person responding to the author's suggestion.

I don't think anybody does that, but they might call people fanboys if they think that person is blinkered and will countenance no criticism of the software or even no suggestion that there might be some improvement in a specific area.

 

[Lawrence]

I just read that article linked a few posts back. I agreed with one small portion of it, the rest actually made me laugh. I can't believe people expect XF, which only had three (?) years of active development (due to the unfounded lawsuit) to be at par with competitors software that has been developed for many many years longer. In fact, I am quite amazed at what the team accomplished in such a short time since the end of the lawsuit.

The part I agreed with is about the community here. It has become toxic, IMO, mostly because of favouritism, cliques, whatever. I tried to bring this to light in a thread about questionable practises a certain former developer here wanted to implement, and I was called out as being racist by one of the staff (one of the two reasons I lost interest in supporting this community or releasing more add-ons). However; with that said, I completely respect what the team here accomplished with their software, and how they are developing it.

As for suggestions: the problem is that posts are allowed to be made that do not contain a qualifying statement. For, or against, it doesn't matter. "should be core" is not a qualifying statement. "just adding bloat" is not a qualifying statement, and those type of responses should be deleted. A mediator should be in place to help flush out ideas (not a global moderator), and to remove posts they feel are not beneficial to the discussion of the suggestion.

 

[EQnoble]

I don't think anybody does that, but they might call people fanboys if they think that person is blinkered and will countenance no criticism of the software or even no suggestion that there might be some improvement in a specific area.

A simple somewhat inaccurate measure of frequency.

Remember...XF is written for the most part in php so you have to figure this 3 letter word should be mentioned a lot all things considered.




Keyword is 'think', you say they will only call someone a fanboy if they think...which is again action against another person because of the interpretation of their values and at anytime there is no factual argument for or against that. It is an opinion, it is name calling and is used to summarily dismiss anyone not in accordance with whoever feels like their opinion matters more. At least if you are arguing a feature you are arguing the feature...insulting and name calling is immature and is a BS way to not lose an argument.

The word fanboy and the way it is used is WAY more detrimental to this community than someone having an opposing opinion about possible future inclusions to this software.

The word fanboy is used as a defacto way to attempt to insult and shut someone up and in almost all instances of it being used it is done to marginalize someone else's opinion or at least put them on tilt so someone without merit can win a debate...with most of the rest of the occurrences being people having to state ahead of time that they are not a fanboy for saying something nice about XF before they get attacked for being a "fanboy".

 

[Alpha1]

The issue is the constant hue & cry "it needs to be core". Crap

Its exactly the inability of normal discourse that you showcase here what this thread is about. Normal discussion of the pro's and cons of a suggestion is constructive. By coloring the other party like that it makes a suggestion thread a struggle instead.
This is off putting and not worth the headache for many people. People making suggestions, but just the same for developers putting out addons here and getting exactly the same in return.

a lot of the stuff is VERY niche like and is better served by 3rd party implementation, but the suggester doesn't want to shell out the funds to have it coded for them so they would prefer it be rolled into core.
...Classic case was what I understood @Alfa1 was wanting. It appeared that he wanted, as core, what amounts to a fully functional wallet that could be extended.

While some of your arguments in this thread are really good, you also make a lot of false assumptions.
For example, I did shell out $1000 to have something similar coded by @Daniel Hood & @Jeff Berry . Just like others did. The addon is called XenCashier. It was never delivered, but that's another story.
You know, a lot of the suggestions I used to post were suggestions that I already had scheduled or implemented for myself. Or suggestions that I knew would make addon developers life easier.

Your statement that the suggester doesn't want to shell out the funds as some kind of freeloader seems completely unfounded to me.

I was posting suggestions that I thought would make XenForo better. Even if I had no need for them. That was my motivation.

 

[Alpha1]

In the entire time I've been here (since 10/18/2012) I've never had an issue with feeling like I was getting "dumped on" or "talked down to" or anything like that. If I was behaving like a jerk (and I can be an abrasive ass), I was adult enough to deal with being called out on it.

A pretty fair statement. But at the same time you consider being an abrasive ass as acceptable. It obviously falls within the rules of this site to be an abrasive ass, but its also one of the reasons why developers leave because the general atmosphere here can get pretty low.

The impression of getting dumped on or talked down to as you call it, I would describe as being ridiculed or needing to struggle to post a suggestion. This was not really a major problem for me until recently.

I really do not see why anyone would need to deal with the headache of such. Its a waste of time and energy to deal with non-constructive rude postings which serve the purpose of being argumentative. Its useful for a normal online community, but I really cant see how this is appropriate here on an official company website. IMHO this should be a professional place. But it very clearly is not at this time.

This shows how much I "like" IPS but also that I'm not "all about XenForo".

I have considered the same myself as I think its a good platform and a more professional atmosphere that an official company website should really have. 2 developers I work with have moved away from xenforo and will be releasing new addons there so you will see some familiar faces at woltlab.

It's just one example how xenforo is unfortunately missing out on good coders because of the difficulty of the community.

Its already extremely difficult to find quality developers for xenforo. Off putting responses and people just being difficult for the sake of argumentative contributes to that.

Mind that if developers find specific functionality missing or lacking, then a suggestion relating to that will often seem 'very niche' to webmasters. I regularly posted such suggestions. Many of which have been found useful and implemented.

 

[we_are_borg]

It's been ages that i made a suggestion on this forum, to put it blunt i don't feel welcome in this community, this is based on a feeling that i have when coming to this site. When i read suggestions you see the negativity in the some posts, now let me say negativity is not something that is always bad you can be negative in a constructive manner. Maybe the rules should change so that responses on the suggestion topics is better formatted. For example use Like button to support the suggestion, Like + Comment you agree but have concerns and/or other ideas, the third option you disagree with the suggestion and tell us why you have reservations about it. In the reservations you should be clear why you think its not needed or why it cant be done. The discussion at the end you see that the suggestion is done as is or is transformed to something that is better then the original or its rejected because and that is always disclosed. How it's now it looks like the most outspoken person gets it's way how its going to be done that is something that is unwanted.

Another problem we have is the issue with developers of add-ons and style designers in one corner and on the other side the normal customers that's in need of a function and has no money or development skills to make an add-on so they want it in core Xenforo. Add-on developers and Style developers need some function in core Xenforo to let their product better work with Xenforo, this can be split in two corners, one is their customers want something but core Xenforo is preventing how it should work etc etc, the other side of that the developer wants it because it will solve issues for them. Because they are developers and have also to think about the interest of their customers its not a great thing if their topics where negative in nature and people remember that they have backing of others behind them.

In the end we should all work with one and other to get to the next level for your website. But we need to trust @Kier @Mike @Chris D @Ashley to make the right choice by giving them relevant information and opinions, they know Xenforo cant incorporate everything we want.

 

[The Sandman]

I think there is a lot more to this subject than meets the eye - the stated topic is just the tip of the iceberg.

It seems to me that for a long time now, there's been a kind of disconnect between the XenForo Developers and the XenForo Community. That's not to say that the Developers have any particular obligation to interact with the Community in any particular way - they don't . In that regard the software can speak for itself. But there is something missing - something that was once there - and that missing something has significant effect on the Community.

Feature suggestions are a good example of this. XenForo 1.0.0 was released almost 5 years ago (!), and in many ways the XF featureset is incomplete both when compared to vB 3.8 (released 6 years ago) and to other forum software products currently available. To this day I often find myself missing features that were available on vB 3.8. It's true that many if not most of these features are available as 3rd party add-ons, but many are not - and those that are usually don't work as well as the core product did back in the day.

Yet it seems that there is a reluctance on the part of the Developers to add core features. When a suggestion is made, the Community is left to discuss it among themselves (sometimes for better, sometimes for worse). Interest is apparently gauged by the amount of Likes received by the original post and "order is maintained" by the moderating staff - all with very little feedback from the Developers. But isn't it the Developers who should be determining what features should be in the core? Isn't it the Developers who should be determining what additions to the core would constitute "bloat" (which AFAIK is defined as an actual increase in hardware requirements or perceptible slowing of the forums due to additions of dubious benefit)?

I for one would be much more likely to take it as constructive criticism from Kier, Mike, or Chris that a suggestion I made is not suitable for the core or in their opinion would constitute bloat. Having other Community members take the lead in this promotes bad feelings between members and creates a false sense of what constitutes an authoritative response to a feature suggestion. A substantive response from a Developer as to the feasibility of a particular suggestion would make it much easier for the Community to evaluate that feature and would make the upvoting of that feature that much more meaningful.

Finally, I think the XF core needs to be fleshed out - this idea that most everything suggested should be added via 3rd party add-on causes way more problems than it solves.

 

[Mike Edge]

It seems to me that for a long time now, there's been a kind of disconnect between the XenForo Developers and the XenForo Community. That's not to say that the Developers have any particular obligation to interact with the Community in any particular way - they don't . In that regard the software can speak for itself. But there is something missing - something that was once there - and that missing something has significant effect on the Community.

What I think makes the connection even more crucial is the (can't say sole anymore) umm lead developers are also co-owners which makes it critical to be connected. It's known Kier is whacking away at 2.0, but at the same time, he hasn't posted once since July 2, 2015, a same said co-owner who racked up over 5,600 posts to the community at some point between now and 2010.. That's almost 1k posts a year to now barely anything at all. Personally, until 2.0 was announced I was feeling interest was lost in xenForo from KAM. The announcement of 2.0 was another whole can of worms in itself. I understand the hype wanted, hoping to maybe motivate the community again. But I think that idea backfired and only became an excuse for many 3rd party developers not to release anything new as it will break in 2.0, which we know is not going to be ready anywhere in the near future., leaving us now stuck for maybe as long as a year or more until new exciting features we need will be considered to be made.

 

[EQnoble]

I for one would be much more likely to take it as constructive criticism from Kier, Mike, or Chris that a suggestion I made is not suitable for the core or in their opinion would constitute bloat. Having other Community members take the lead in this promotes bad feelings between members and creates a false sense of what constitutes an authoritative response to a feature suggestion. A substantive response from a Developer as to the feasibility of a particular suggestion would make it much easier for the Community to evaluate that feature and would make the upvoting of that feature that much more meaningful.

If the developers of XF chime in on suggestions too early in it will automatically change a large % of non supporters before they even decide themselves simply because they run the show here (if you get in a ring with me and Mike Tyson who are you trying to take lessons on throwing hands from)...this is true almost anywhere and is the same reason why something you may take as a baseless insult from anyone else would be constructive criticism from the devs.

The developers being who they are would affect the outcome the same way a pretty female can affect the decision of an ignorant male and it is exactly why marketing campaigns usually use girls that follow the trend of what the general population considers beautiful at that moment.

I think someone from the company chiming in with an official view (feasibility) for suggestions would be good....I just don't think it should come directly from the developers because then there is no point in even making suggestions unless you know that the devs will respond in your thread because all the attention will immediately go to where they post (it implies that your suggestion was good enough for the devs and theirs wasn't even though that is obviously not the case) and then people will also feel less important if you get a response from a dev, and they don't and I really doubt with everything the 3 devs do that they personally have time to entertain every suggestion.

 

[The Sandman]

I really doubt with everything the 3 devs do that they personally have time to entertain every suggestion.

TBH, I get the sense that at least 2 of the Developers are reading all of the suggestions (and all of the threads in most sections really except the dedicated add-on threads). They just don't comment on them very much. I guess my point is that they should IMO. After all, who better to direct our attention and guide our suggestions/discussions?

 

[Chris D]

Yet it seems that there is a reluctance on the part of the Developers to add core features. When a suggestion is made, the Community is left to discuss it among themselves (sometimes for better, sometimes for worse). Interest is apparently gauged by the amount of Likes received by the original post and "order is maintained" by the moderating staff - all with very little feedback from the Developers. But isn't it the Developers who should be determining what features should be in the core? Isn't it the Developers who should be determining what additions to the core would constitute "bloat" (which AFAIK is defined as an actual increase in hardware requirements or perceptible slowing of the forums due to additions of dubious benefit)?

There is no reluctance on our part to add core features. We take the view that all suggestions are valid until they are moved to resolved.

Suggestions are resolved either by us implementing them, us marking them "Not Planned" (which we post our reasons why) or them expiring due to "Lack of Interest" (this generally doesn't warrant a reason as it's fairly obvious).

I don't think there's much more we can do here. Even suggestions that may be on the more niche side could still be considered if enough support is shown for them, and that's where you guys come in with your first post likes and constructive discussion that ensues.

To be clear: if we see a suggestion thread that is unsuitable because it's no technically achievable, or we don't consider it fits, we can (and we do) mark it as "Not Planned".

I for one would be much more likely to take it as constructive criticism from Kier, Mike, or Chris that a suggestion I made is not suitable for the core or in their opinion would constitute bloat. Having other Community members take the lead in this promotes bad feelings between members and creates a false sense of what constitutes an authoritative response to a feature suggestion. A substantive response from a Developer as to the feasibility of a particular suggestion would make it much easier for the Community to evaluate that feature and would make the upvoting of that feature that much more meaningful.

I can assure you; there have been times when we have officially rejected a suggestion and that has been met negatively, so I do not agree. All I can say is that we will do it when we have to, but I don't think there's any benefit to us being more vocal here. Any "bad feeling" generally stems from the disappointment of the realisation that an idea wasn't perfect, or wasn't likely to be voted favourably; but the important thing to be mindful of here, as I've said before, if you submit a suggestion - expect constructive feedback and if you are responding to a suggestion be constructive and try not to get into the whole "bloat/not for core" discussion because we will comment on that if it is relevant.

So, in summary, every up vote of a suggestion is already meaningful. You just need to vote, discuss like mature people and be nice to each other.

 

[The Sandman]

I just read that article linked a few posts back. I agreed with one small portion of it, the rest actually made me laugh.

I agree - one or two kernels of truth garnished with a pile of buffalo chips.

 

[Chris D]

Personally, until 2.0 was announced I was feeling interest was lost in xenForo from KAM.

I think this is an odd feeling to have considering that 2.0 was announced as 1.4 was being released, which itself was only 6-8 months since 1.3 had been released and another 6-8 months since 1.2 had been released. What on earth would make you think that interest was lost when development is so active?

The announcement of 2.0 was another whole can of worms in itself. I understand the hype wanted, hoping to maybe motivate the community again. But I think that idea backfired and only became an excuse for many 3rd party developers not to release anything new as it will break in 2.0, which we know is not going to be ready anywhere in the near future., leaving us now stuck for maybe as long as a year or more until new exciting features we need will be considered to be made.

Conversely the entire reason that 2.0 was announced when it was (although we acknowledge it may have seemed a tad too soon) was so people didn't have the perception that development was slowed. If we hadn't mentioned XF 2.0 when we did, then 6-8 months will have passed and you guys will have been "feeling interest was lost in XenForo from KAM"... The announcement set a clear signal as to what we were working on, and we have and will continue to give those signals when and where it is appropriate.

 

[The Sandman]

Thanks for the reply Chris. Since joining the XF Dev Team you've certainly done your part in adding back some of the connection between Developers and Community.

There is no reluctance on our part to add core features.

What is the official XenForo position on the current XF featureset? It's reasonably complete and requires additions relatively infrequently? Or it's not fully fleshed out yet (as envisioned in some internal XF Developer's road map) for whatever reason? Regardless of specific suggestions, should we expect that someday XF will do "everything" vB 3.8 did for example?

 

[EQnoble]

TBH, I get the sense that at least 2 of the Developers are reading all of the suggestions (and all of the threads in most sections really except the dedicated add-on threads). They just don't comment on them very much. I guess my point is that they should IMO. After all, who better to direct our attention and guide our suggestions/discussions?

And that's my point if they speak up in those suggestions before people have a chance to speak, we all might as well shut up and let the developers do what they do...develop their own plans without canvasing for interest because what novice is going to suggest something after the software creator makes a comment in a different direction of their suggestion.

The only time I think it would be wise for a dev to directly address the community in a suggestion thread...is if it is already quite clear that a suggestion will be implemented at some point and detailed needs are the only thing left to sort out.

It's like this...we are all equal members of this community so our 2 cents count as...well 2 cents. The devs two cents...are really large big face benji's and nobody sits on dollars waiting for 50 cents, money talks.

 

[Chris D]

Thanks for the reply Chris. Since joining the XF Dev Team you've certainly done your part in adding back some of the connection between Developers and Community.

What is the official XenForo position on the current XF featureset? It's reasonably complete and requires additions relatively infrequently? Or it's not fully fleshed out yet (as envisioned in some internal XF Developer's road map) for whatever reason? Regardless of specific suggestions, should we expect that someday XF will do "everything" vB 3.8 did for example?

We're not aiming to do everything that X forum package does.

I've been very vocal about my personal feelings about the XF featureset (even before I became staff) and that is the perceived gap between XF and "other" software has closed significantly. At this stage, I'm not even sure what gaps there are. There's plenty of people very vocal in telling us that XF is missing lots of stuff without ever really defining what that lots of stuff is; that's probably another thread in itself.

Obviously our current position is we're working on XF 2.0 and this aims to increase developer productivity. This should allow add-on developers to do more, more quickly, and likewise allow us to do more, more quickly.

 

[The Sandman]

There's plenty of people very vocal in telling us that XF is missing lots of stuff without ever really defining what that lots of stuff is; that's probably another thread in itself.

Theoretically, that's what the suggestion forum should be.