Implemented...ish Making the case for a XF native app

[Ludachris]

I know XF is forum software, and I understand that forums are fundamentally different than social media. I know that Tapatalk is a viable option for many forum owners. I've tried it but it wasn't the right solution for my site, mainly because it doesn't work with various plugins that website owners tend to use to try and set themselves apart from their competition and make their forums more sticky and cool (among a few other deal breakers). I understand that an app is costly to develop and that it's difficult to come up with something that will make the masses happy.

With of all that said, here's the case I'm making for an XF native forum app:

If your forum members take photos using their phones, where are they more likely to share those photos these days? The road blocks and extra steps it takes to open a browser on the phone, navigate to your forum, click around and find the right place to post the photo in the forum, and then use the upload feature to click around and locate the photo on the phone takes WAY more time than clicking the Share button after you take that photo and selecting FB or Instagram. And when you have a lot of the people in that forum as friends on your social network, why go through the extra hassle of also sharing that content in a forum?

Social media networks have given the user the ability to make their own networks that they used to depend on forums to access. I don't think this will kill forums, but it will certainly start taking away from a big part of what used to make forums sticky. For some communities - take the car enthusiast communities for example - those photos signify what a member is working on at the moment with their car, and that is an extremely important community-building element that is starting to drop off in forums these days because it's FAR EASIER to share that content on social media via mobile, especially with the upward trend in mobile device usage for interaction. This is not a problem that is/will be exclusive to the automotive community.

I've been talking with members of my site for several months about this, getting their feedback and taking notes. The consistent message coming back is that the forum will always be a great place for finding technical information, but that FB is becoming more preferred for engaging and networking with other car enthusiasts because of how simple it is to use, especially on a mobile device. The problem is, being a technical resource ONLY is not going to keep a forum community thriving.

Over 65% of my traffic views the site on a mobile device these days. I'm using a mobile friendly theme without Tapatalk (for various reasons). And though the site is easy enough to use on a mobile device, I would LOVE to have an app that is native to XF that was build in a way that it coule be extended by some of the talented plugin developers we have in this community (like @Bob who built Showcase and other cool content-centered plugins). If I install an app it has to encompass all areas of the site where I collect content - when that user clicks Share after they take a photo I need to be able to give them quick and easy options to share that content in my forum somewhere so that they don't just share it on FB or IG instead.

The simplicity and ease of sharing content from mobile is becoming more and more expected from the average user. And the traditional way the user has to go about posting in a forum is falling behind in terms of modern day usability. I'm not advocating forums be more like social media. I'm advocating exploring ways to make forums as easy to use as social media on mobile device and doing it in a way that it's extendable - so that plugin developers can tie their plugins into standardized locations.

I'd pay an upfront license fee and a monthly fee for that and I know quite a few other forum owners who run their forum as a business and rely on advertising revenue would invest in this as well. I'd think it's worth exploring and I imagine the XF decision makers probably already have, and probably keep revisiting as mobile usage continues to increase. As someone who didn't used to be too concerned about social media being a competitor a few years back I now see why it's very possible that forums could be used less and less for sharing content and networking among people with similar interests - which could turn forums into obsolete, searchable newsgroups.

We need to keep people engaged and make it extremely easy to have new, quality content posted on our sites. I've always felt XF was forward thinking in the forum space, which is why I moved over from vB last year. I'm hoping the XF devs will seriously consider revolutionizing the way members post content on forums using mobile devices, I like most everything else they've done with the script so far.

 

[Ludachris]

I don't want an app.
I don't need an app.
I don't want xenforo developers waste their precious time on developing an app.

There are apps for web sites and they are called browsers.

I don't either. But our members do. They ask for one constantly. They want push notification alerts on their phones so they can see when someone engages with their posts (or any other instance where someone is communicating with them or a piece of content they posted - email is the new snail mail). They want to be able to easily upload photos to our site through their phone's share feature - since they can't do that easily they share those photos on FB or IG instead. They want all of the modern conveniences they get from FB and other social network apps, that a browser simply cannot offer. I have discussions with members of our site regularly who now use FB way more often because it's just easier to use and more engaging. Using the browser is perfectly fine up to point. It works. But that isn't enough to keep people engaged. Expectations and common standards continue to evolve in ways that browsers simply haven't been able to address.

I realize some people just don't see this, or maybe they don't want to. And not all niches are affected the same way. For the longest time I didn't think it was a big deal. But when you pay attention to the data over time, when you watch so many of your long-time contributors interacting with each other over on FB with the subject matter instead of on your forum, being told the forum software is mobile friendly feels like a slap in the face. More and more of my time is spent recruiting members to continue their discussion in the forum, educating the younger generation about why forums are valuable and why they should spend their time there, and why FB poses a threat to archived information. Most of the time it all falls on deaf ears. Nobody cares about that. They care about ease of use and usability/engagement that is borderline addictive.

If XF isn't going to build a native app that allows for 3rd party add-ons to function, does anyone have information on how a generic app can be built to essentially frame the site so it can be used in an app? I've been told it's possible. That it would essentially use browser code but it would work as an app (Javascript code I believe). I guess you could say it would just be a modified browser built for your site.

 

[trapped_soul]

But when you pay attention to the data over time, when you watch so many of your long-time contributors interacting with each other over on FB with the subject matter instead of on your forum, being told the forum software is mobile friendly feels like a slap in the face. More and more of my time is spent recruiting members to continue their discussion in the forum, educating the younger generation about why forums are valuable and why they should spend their time there, and why FB poses a threat to archived information. Most of the time it all falls on deaf ears. Nobody cares about that. They care about ease of use and usability/engagement that is borderline addictive.

If XF isn't going to build a native app that allows for 3rd party add-ons to function, does anyone have information on how a generic app can be built to essentially frame the site so it can be used in an app? I've been told it's possible. That it would essentially use browser code but it would work as an app (Javascript code I believe). I guess you could say it would just be a modified browser built for your site.

Agreed. This is not a failure of XF or the team, but for me, this is a request from the Admin community that is urgent; we need an app that is easy to use and easy to send push notifications from. That's it.
I don't want to knock anyone at all, but maybe the team aren't up to it or don't have the skills, maybe don't have the time or simply don't have the money.
But I do know, if XF took the more WP usability approach but for a forum software, they'd be next year Millionaires.
How?
Don't ask me, I'm not the dev here, but I know it would make an absolute bomb.

 

[Ludachris]

Agreed. This is not a failure of XF or the team, but for me, this is a request from the Admin community that is urgent; we need an app that is easy to use and easy to send push notifications from. That's it.
I don't want to knock anyone at all, but maybe the team aren't up to it or don't have the skills, maybe don't have the time or simply don't have the money.
But I do know, if XF took the more WP usability approach but for a forum software, they'd be next year Millionaires.
How?
Don't ask me, I'm not the dev here, but I know it would make an absolute bomb.

You're right, it's not a failure of the XF team. They've done great work on this forum software. I like what the software can do. But as community admins, we're finding that we need to evolve and pivot to deliver a user experience which has now become widely considered to be standard for online communities, which is now dominated by mobile devices. And though mobile browsers "work" they are extremely limited in certain critical ways that users expect to use to easily interact with an online community and share content.

I don't use apps myself too often. I like interacting with forums and social networks in a browser, but I realize I don't represent the majority of our target audience these days, certainly not the younger generation. The longer we go without being able to fully harness a phone's built-in push notification system, or access the phone's camera to upload photos directly to our forums, the more we will lose touch with more of our audience. Sure, we'll have some who will stick around and put up with these limitations, but those who are used to FB and other apps will continue to slowly move away from forums (or will not adopt them to begin with).

I fully understand there is no simple solution to this. The XF team likely isn't in a position to build out a mobile app. Paying a developer to build a complete stand alone app doesn't make business sense for many of us - probably most of us. It's prohibitively expensive. But the bottom line is we have to find a path to get there somehow. And the solution has to make sense for the forum owner (which rules out Tapatalk for a lot of us). There's too much evidence warning us about it.

 

[⭐ Alex ⭐]

They want push notification alerts on their phones so they can see when someone engages with their posts

XF has push notifs.

 

[jmurrayhead]

I'm not an active member on many forums anymore these days. The few forums I'm a member of I only visit when I'm at my desk. I've had iPhones and Androids...and neither remember my login information for very long in the mobile browser. I don't want to have to constantly type that information in. Most mobile apps will keep you logged in (i.e., Twitter, Facebook, Snapchat, etc.). This alone would be a strong enough case to want an app for forums.

 

[Ludachris]

XF has push notifs.

I can't get them, I have an iPhone. And so do nearly 70% the visitors who access my forums on mobile. I suppose I could tell them they should switch to Android devices so they can make use of the push notifications. LOL! And before someone explains why it's not possible with iOS devices, I'm fully aware.

 

[Ludachris]

I'm not an active member on many forums anymore these days. The few forums I'm a member of I only visit when I'm at my desk. I've had iPhones and Androids...and neither remember my login information for very long in the mobile browser. I don't want to have to constantly type that information in. Most mobile apps will keep you logged in (i.e., Twitter, Facebook, Snapchat, etc.). This alone would be a strong enough case to want an app for forums.

Another great point. I've been working with a member recently who used to frequent our forum quite a bit, but now he spends most of his time on FB. I got him to log in the other day and he had trouble getting back in. I helped him reset his pw. A few days later he can't log in with the pw I set for him. I was able to login to his account using his credentials, but he couldn't for some reason - probably a corrupted cookie or something. I'm trying to help him figure it out, but when he says "see, this is why I tend to use FB, it's just easier" there is little I can say to that. He's right. And yes, FB is a billion dollar software company, I get that we can't expect forum software to be as easy to use as FB, but as mentioned above, this is another issue an app would help solve.

 

[Ozzy47]

He's right. And yes, FB is a billion dollar software company, I get that we can't expect forum software to be as easy to use as FB, but as mentioned above, this is another issue an app would help solve.

Not necessarily, if he is having trouble logging in and your not (using the same credentials) an app may not help solve it.

 

[Ludachris]

Not necessarily, if he is having trouble logging in and your not (using the same credentials) an app may not help solve it.

The app would have saved his credentials in the first place, which would be massively valuable. If it's a cookie issue, which tends to be the culprit when it isn't user error, then the app could definitely help with that too.

 

[Ozzy47]

I’ve not experienced any lost login info in my browsers on any of my devices, nor been logged out and have to log back in unless the server had a hiccup and reset or I cleared my cookies.

 

[Ludachris]

I’ve not experienced any lost login info in my browsers on any of my devices, nor been logged out and have to log back in unless the server had a hiccup and reset or I cleared my cookies.

Me neither really. But we all know cookies don't always play nice.

 

[sbj]

Unmaintained - Adjust stay logged in

Description With this addon you can choose if the "stay logged in" field should be displayed and if it should be selected automatically. You can also display a hint. Feature summary preselection of "stay logged in" field show or hide "stay...

xenforo.com

 

[Ludachris]

Unmaintained - Adjust stay logged in

Description With this addon you can choose if the "stay logged in" field should be displayed and if it should be selected automatically. You can also display a hint. Feature summary preselection of "stay logged in" field show or hide "stay...

xenforo.com

Not that this will solve some of the cookie issues, but I like what it does. I'll have to weight whether or not it makes sense to add yet another add-on to the mix.

 

[trapped_soul]

You're right, it's not a failure of the XF team. They've done great work on this forum software. I like what the software can do. But as community admins, we're finding that we need to evolve and pivot to deliver a user experience which has now become widely considered to be standard for online communities, which is now dominated by mobile devices. And though mobile browsers "work" they are extremely limited in certain critical ways that users expect to use to easily interact with an online community and share content.

I don't use apps myself too often. I like interacting with forums and social networks in a browser, but I realize I don't represent the majority of our target audience these days, certainly not the younger generation. The longer we go without being able to fully harness a phone's built-in push notification system, or access the phone's camera to upload photos directly to our forums, the more we will lose touch with more of our audience. Sure, we'll have some who will stick around and put up with these limitations, but those who are used to FB and other apps will continue to slowly move away from forums (or will not adopt them to begin with).

I fully understand there is no simple solution to this. The XF team likely isn't in a position to build out a mobile app. Paying a developer to build a complete stand alone app doesn't make business sense for many of us - probably most of us. It's prohibitively expensive. But the bottom line is we have to find a path to get there somehow. And the solution has to make sense for the forum owner (which rules out Tapatalk for a lot of us). There's too much evidence warning us about it.

True. It is an issue and it is something we need. I know the team here are excellent at what they do, but can they make an app? If not, can they afford one? I know for a fact, as do most of us, apps cost a fortune. Web wrapper - doable really. Native true app? Big money..
I used to use CometChat and that went from about £700/800 per year to now being about £200 PCM.. because demand is increasing. So much money involved in this.
But as I said earlier, if XF made a native, fully fledged app for XF, they'd make a bomb... It would be the best thing since sliced bread. But I can't see it happening.

I can't get them, I have an iPhone. And so do nearly 70% the visitors who access my forums on mobile. I suppose I could tell them they should switch to Android devices so they can make use of the push notifications. LOL! And before someone explains why it's not possible with iOS devices, I'm fully aware.

Yep same here and a huge number of our members are iOS too.

 

[⭐ Alex ⭐]

I can't get them, I have an iPhone. And so do nearly 70% the visitors who access my forums on mobile. I suppose I could tell them they should switch to Android devices so they can make use of the push notifications. LOL! And before someone explains why it's not possible with iOS devices, I'm fully aware.

Yeah and you can't even use the forum as a web app that well when you add to home screen.

 

[Ludachris]

Yeah and you can't even use the forum as a web app that well when you add to home screen.

And for people like me who use Chrome on an iPhone (so I can have access to all my Chrome bookmarks and features), you can't add the site to the home screen at all. It's not possible. You can only do it with Safari, and I don't use Safari.

 

[⭐ Alex ⭐]

And for people like me who use Chrome on an iPhone (so I can have access to all my Chrome bookmarks and features), you can't add the site to the home screen at all. It's not possible. You can only do it with Safari, and I don't use Safari.

You shouldn't use either chrome or safari. Just saying.

 

[Ludachris]

You shouldn't use either chrome or safari. Just saying.

When you use G Suite for email Chrome is pretty convenient.

What browser do you use between all your devices?

 

[⭐ Alex ⭐]

Ah, I use DDG! And to keep this on topic, we need a mobile app because I cant get push notifications on my browser of choice on ios!!

 

[Ludachris]

It's interesting to go back and read the first post of this thread and the initial replies from ~5 years ago and compare what was said back then to what is being said now. All the same points are still being made.

On my largest forum, I can tell you what has transpired in that time. A a large percentage of the regular members who used to participate on the forum 5 years ago are now much more active on FB than they are on the forum, even the very loyal members - at least those who still have a real interest in the subject matter and haven't left the community entirely for other interests. The forum hasn't dropped too much in overall traffic compared to that time, but the posting activity and user activity stats certainly have gone down significantly - more users tend to browse the forum more than participate.

As with most automotive communities, the discussions that take place on the subject matter in our forum is taking place on FB more and more, and it continues to trend that way. As more members of our forum build up their network of friends and join more FB groups on the topic (which is focused on the same specific vehicle platform our forum focuses on) they have less need to visit the forum and participate. They post more of their questions on FB to get faster answers - even if the quality of the responses are not quite what they'd get from our forum. They can always do searches to find content on the forum but I'm finding they're more likely to reference a forum thread on FB and ask for feedback there, instead of going to the forum and posting. It's sad to watch. As I mentioned in a previous post, I spend time on FB recruiting members, and trying to get past members to come back and participate, but it largely feels like a futile effort.

That's not to say the forum has completely died off. There is still a decent group of active members that post regularly, and we do what we can to keep that going and foster a positive environment with unique features that can't be found on FB or IG. I find I get the "how do I post a question" PM a couple times per month, as using a forum is no longer intuitive to newcomers. Many of the people who participate on our forums don't care much for using social media, but when you look at the community around our forum's subject overall, the number of people we have who are actively posting on the forum is small when compared to the number of people discussing the same subject matter on FB. The reverse was true 5-8 years ago. We used to get ~30k+ new posts per month in early 2012. We now average about 3,500/month. The amount of discussions taking place on FB for this subject has shot up in that time. And though FB still has plenty of things that make it inferior when you compare it to forums (organization, data archiving, trolling, etc), a large percentage of people simply don't care enough about those things to leave FB and use a forum for the discussions instead. You'll see people on FB say things like "let's make forums great again". And maybe they'll be active in the forum for a little while. But a month later you'll see them participating in Q&A on the subject matter on FB again because it's just so easy. The FB app makes it easy to communicate and stay engaged.

I tend to use the analogy of forums being like the shopping mall, while Amazon Prime represents FB (and/or social network apps) - sure, the mall will still have products you're looking to buy and you can go there to shop. But more people find it easier to jump on their phone and shop Amazon Prime than to make time to take a trip to the mall, find parking, walk through the parking lot, figure out which store will have what you need, find the store in the directory, actually find the product you want to buy in the size you need, go to a few other stores to compare pricing/sizes/availability, then leave and probably go buy it on Amazon anyway. Even if Amazon is cluttered with cheap crap and a ton of fake reviews that you have to sift through, and it doesn't have any service agents on hand that can help answer questions about products in real time, it does have nearly everything available for purchase that can be delivered in two days. It's CONVENIENT and VERY EASY TO USE.

While some forums are doing okay (in terms of user participation stats) and don't see any of this as having an effect on them, it would be naive to ignore the trend that's taken place and is still happening in most niches.

So with all of this said, will a native app for our forum have a big impact on all of this? Will it help us reverse the trend? I believe the easier you make the user experience, the more engaging and fulfilling, you at least have a fighting chance.