Implemented...ish Making the case for a XF native app

Ludachris

Well-known member
I know XF is forum software, and I understand that forums are fundamentally different than social media. I know that Tapatalk is a viable option for many forum owners. I've tried it but it wasn't the right solution for my site, mainly because it doesn't work with various plugins that website owners tend to use to try and set themselves apart from their competition and make their forums more sticky and cool (among a few other deal breakers). I understand that an app is costly to develop and that it's difficult to come up with something that will make the masses happy.

With of all that said, here's the case I'm making for an XF native forum app:

If your forum members take photos using their phones, where are they more likely to share those photos these days? The road blocks and extra steps it takes to open a browser on the phone, navigate to your forum, click around and find the right place to post the photo in the forum, and then use the upload feature to click around and locate the photo on the phone takes WAY more time than clicking the Share button after you take that photo and selecting FB or Instagram. And when you have a lot of the people in that forum as friends on your social network, why go through the extra hassle of also sharing that content in a forum?

Social media networks have given the user the ability to make their own networks that they used to depend on forums to access. I don't think this will kill forums, but it will certainly start taking away from a big part of what used to make forums sticky. For some communities - take the car enthusiast communities for example - those photos signify what a member is working on at the moment with their car, and that is an extremely important community-building element that is starting to drop off in forums these days because it's FAR EASIER to share that content on social media via mobile, especially with the upward trend in mobile device usage for interaction. This is not a problem that is/will be exclusive to the automotive community.

I've been talking with members of my site for several months about this, getting their feedback and taking notes. The consistent message coming back is that the forum will always be a great place for finding technical information, but that FB is becoming more preferred for engaging and networking with other car enthusiasts because of how simple it is to use, especially on a mobile device. The problem is, being a technical resource ONLY is not going to keep a forum community thriving.

Over 65% of my traffic views the site on a mobile device these days. I'm using a mobile friendly theme without Tapatalk (for various reasons). And though the site is easy enough to use on a mobile device, I would LOVE to have an app that is native to XF that was build in a way that it coule be extended by some of the talented plugin developers we have in this community (like @Bob who built Showcase and other cool content-centered plugins). If I install an app it has to encompass all areas of the site where I collect content - when that user clicks Share after they take a photo I need to be able to give them quick and easy options to share that content in my forum somewhere so that they don't just share it on FB or IG instead.

The simplicity and ease of sharing content from mobile is becoming more and more expected from the average user. And the traditional way the user has to go about posting in a forum is falling behind in terms of modern day usability. I'm not advocating forums be more like social media. I'm advocating exploring ways to make forums as easy to use as social media on mobile device and doing it in a way that it's extendable - so that plugin developers can tie their plugins into standardized locations.

I'd pay an upfront license fee and a monthly fee for that and I know quite a few other forum owners who run their forum as a business and rely on advertising revenue would invest in this as well. I'd think it's worth exploring and I imagine the XF decision makers probably already have, and probably keep revisiting as mobile usage continues to increase. As someone who didn't used to be too concerned about social media being a competitor a few years back I now see why it's very possible that forums could be used less and less for sharing content and networking among people with similar interests - which could turn forums into obsolete, searchable newsgroups.

We need to keep people engaged and make it extremely easy to have new, quality content posted on our sites. I've always felt XF was forward thinking in the forum space, which is why I moved over from vB last year. I'm hoping the XF devs will seriously consider revolutionizing the way members post content on forums using mobile devices, I like most everything else they've done with the script so far.
 
Upvote 56
This suggestion has been implemented. Votes are no longer accepted.
Is it just me that doesn't mind browsing XF on my Galaxy S5? :eek: I don't mind not using an app.
I guess if you were stuck with one of those that fit in those "tiny pocket pants" that some wear. I use the responsive on my iPhone 6 regularly.
 
I wasn't really sure where to post this, so thought I'd append it to this thread.

Some usage stats have just come out for reddit, which was emailed to their advertisers showing just how important mobile is to their communities.

  • The company said in an email to advertisers that its apps are the most popular way its 330 million monthly active users access Reddit content on mobile.
  • (The apps) now account for 41 percent of time spent on Reddit across all platforms.
  • Logged-in app users also spend 30 percent more time per day than users who log in from desktop
  • 80 percent of app users don’t access Reddit on desktop.

Those are some pretty striking numbers to me. It just goes to show how compelling a truly native mobile app experience can be when executed correctly.

Users spend 30% more time per day on the site in mobile than users who log in from desktop. Smart phones are killing it and are the preferred platform for many users these days.

This one really surprised me though:
  • 80 percent of app users don’t access Reddit on desktop.
That's insane. That a massive number of users that are completely being ignored and potentially left out in the cold to use other app based platforms if yours doesn't have one. For more and more people their mobile device is their primary computing/socialising/content creation & consumption device and without an app they'll never get the best native experience.
 
I wasn't really sure where to post this, so thought I'd append it to this thread.

Some usage stats have just come out for reddit, which was emailed to their advertisers showing just how important mobile is to their communities.

  • The company said in an email to advertisers that its apps are the most popular way its 330 million monthly active users access Reddit content on mobile.
  • (The apps) now account for 41 percent of time spent on Reddit across all platforms.
  • Logged-in app users also spend 30 percent more time per day than users who log in from desktop
  • 80 percent of app users don’t access Reddit on desktop.

Those are some pretty striking numbers to me. It just goes to show how compelling a truly native mobile app experience can be when executed correctly.

Users spend 30% more time per day on the site in mobile than users who log in from desktop. Smart phones are killing it and are the preferred platform for many users these days.

This one really surprised me though:
  • 80 percent of app users don’t access Reddit on desktop.
That's insane. That a massive number of users that are completely being ignored and potentially left out in the cold to use other app based platforms if yours doesn't have one. For more and more people their mobile device is their primary computing/socialising/content creation & consumption device and without an app they'll never get the best native experience.
I would like to see/know how much quality content are bringing mobile users compared to desktop users.
For example the average number of words that a mobile user write in a single post compared to a desktop one.
 
I would like to see/know how much quality content are bringing mobile users compared to desktop users.
For example the average number of words that a mobile user write in a single post compared to a desktop one.
That would be good info. The problem is the test would have to be performed in multiple communities with different demographics to see how much it changes, if it changes.
 
Well, since we're talking about reddit, that does not actually matter at all. Both PC and mobile users tend to just short-post a link / video and so on.
Comparing reddit to an forum which generally is focused on one theme is kinda awkward. It would make more sense to see the stats for subreddits, e.g. Technical Support, Firefox, etc. This would allow you to compare in a realistic way.

Users spend 30% more time per day on the site in mobile than users who log in from desktop. Smart phones are killing it and are the preferred platform for many users these days.
Since reddit is a big portal for image boards and stuff like that, hence it's mainly used for entertainment, it's only natural that mobile users spent more active time on the site than desktop users. Same goes to YouTube and Facebook, which are a more appropriate comparison.
Just a side note, it's way easier to stay logged in in a app than on desktop / browser. Cookie expiration, cookie deletion on browser session end, etc.
This one really surprised me though:
  • 80 percent of app users don’t access Reddit on desktop.
That's insane. That a massive number of users that are completely being ignored and potentially left out in the cold to use other app based platforms if yours doesn't have one. For more and more people their mobile device is their primary computing/socialising/content creation & consumption device and without an app they'll never get the best native experience.
It's actually not, that's a buffled ratio, see reasons above. And then again, unless your running an image board, this does not affect you at all. The only thing which is currently missing would be something like push notifications. A native XF app would be nothing else than a browser packed with your icon and the ability to handle push notifications natively. Just because XF in its current state is already highly mobile-friendly and mobile-optimizied.
 
I wasn't really sure where to post this, so thought I'd append it to this thread.

Some usage stats have just come out for reddit, which was emailed to their advertisers showing just how important mobile is to their communities.

  • The company said in an email to advertisers that its apps are the most popular way its 330 million monthly active users access Reddit content on mobile.
  • (The apps) now account for 41 percent of time spent on Reddit across all platforms.
  • Logged-in app users also spend 30 percent more time per day than users who log in from desktop
  • 80 percent of app users don’t access Reddit on desktop.

Those are some pretty striking numbers to me. It just goes to show how compelling a truly native mobile app experience can be when executed correctly.

Users spend 30% more time per day on the site in mobile than users who log in from desktop. Smart phones are killing it and are the preferred platform for many users these days.

This one really surprised me though:
  • 80 percent of app users don’t access Reddit on desktop.
That's insane. That a massive number of users that are completely being ignored and potentially left out in the cold to use other app based platforms if yours doesn't have one. For more and more people their mobile device is their primary computing/socialising/content creation & consumption device and without an app they'll never get the best native experience.
I'm starting to feel like this is becoming more the case.... yes, people can use a browser to access a mobile friendly forum. But users don't seem to want to open a browser unless they're going to do a Google search. Hell, that's all browsers are these days on a mobile device - a glorified Google Search app. People want apps on their phones that have alerts and updates, and specific features.

I don't know if there is a good enough business case for XF to build and support a native app. I'm sure they're talked about it quite a bit. The problem becomes plugin compatibility. Nobody uses a plain XF installation. Plugins help site owners create custom experiences. Any native app that would be built is likely going to look similar to Tapatalk, which makes all forums look like a FB group. For a native XF app to work in a way that makes forums more appealing than using FB groups, I think there would need to be some customization options that allow functionality beyond the basic thread/post/messaging features so that each forum could include those features in their mobile app - some sort of plugin API that plugin developers could hook into for the app. And I'd imagine that's going to be a major investment to create, though I hope it does get created. I think community creators are hungry for new tools that will allow them to create modern community experiences beyond what we have today.

Anyway, that's just more opinion beyond my original 2 cents.
 
The only reason we've ever considered going down the route of building a native app is to provide push notification functionality to be honest. For me, this is by far the most useful feature you'd get from an app. But, as the various standards have started to take shape and the technology is there (in most browsers :mad:), then it seems like that kind of functionality is more feasible. We'll hopefully find out in no more than a couple of months what Apple are planning to do with the support for service workers in WebKit. As it stands, right now, in the latest betas for macOS and iOS there is support for service workers, but no support for the APIs which would make the push notification bit possible. I'm hoping they're laying the groundwork now for including that in iOS 12 and macOS 10.14. Though, honestly, I've been hoping for a similar thing for years.

After the push notification bit is sorted and if we implement that we'd be one step closer to a more "Progressive Web App" and we'd have to see if the interest for a native app is still there. I actually suspect it won't be, but we'll see.
 
Some usage stats have just come out for reddit, which was emailed to their advertisers showing just how important mobile is to their communities.
But...that's Reddit. Home of what I call "general Internet" discussions and not the niche topics that true enthusiasts gravitate towards. As such, Reddit draws a far different crowd, certainly not one I would want on any of my forums. (Anything I have ever had to read on Reddit has been "lacking" to put it most politely...just an extension of the worst of social media IMHO...and cat GIFs.)

The only reason we've ever considered going down the route of building a native app is to provide push notification functionality to be honest. For me, this is by far the most useful feature you'd get from an app.
I see that as the only reason to use an app--to get those push notifications. As a site owner and admin, I do not like making visitors download an app to view us properly on mobile devices. I dumped Tapatalk (for numerous reasons) and our visitors quickly got over it. Responsive does its job. I'd rather not clutter my own phone with apps. (And really, how many apps out there really are just browsers themselves? It's just a way to put advertising, aka "branding," on a person's phone.)

As for the notifications, this is the idea I've always had. Create an add-on for XenForo which we could install on our server, so we can send the push notifications. That way, we are not having to pay a third party for resources we already have available on our own servers. If we can send out email with the forum, I don't see push notifications being any different. Now, with the problems that come with trying to get all browsers to use push notifications, I could see a very small app being developed which would 1) accept those push notifications from our own server, and 2) pop open those notifications, which provide a link to view the content in the browser. No need for a full-blown app IMHO--just something small that accepts the communication and generates the link back to the content.

So in other words, the "add-on" would have a few XenForo components (naturally), but would also consist of a small daemon for the server that would broadcast the notifications, and a very small lightweight app to receive the notifications and display them on the mobile device, similar to Pushover or Pushbullet (but using our own servers, vs. being billed heavily for theirs).
 
As for the notifications, this is the idea I've always had. Create an add-on for XenForo which we could install on our server, so we can send the push notifications. That way, we are not having to pay a third party for resources we already have available on our own servers. If we can send out email with the forum, I don't see push notifications being any different. Now, with the problems that come with trying to get all browsers to use push notifications, I could see a very small app being developed which would 1) accept those push notifications from our own server, and 2) pop open those notifications, which provide a link to view the content in the browser. No need for a full-blown app IMHO--just something small that accepts the communication and generates the link back to the content.

So in other words, the "add-on" would have a few XenForo components (naturally), but would also consist of a small daemon for the server that would broadcast the notifications, and a very small lightweight app to receive the notifications and display them on the mobile device, similar to Pushover or Pushbullet (but using our own servers, vs. being billed heavily for theirs).
Sending push notifications via the browser vendor's cloud messaging system using the standard push notification APIs doesn't cost any money. The only big let down right now is Apple. So hopefully they catch up one day then when such a feature exists, it's just a case of having the code which pushes the notifications to the relevant APIs which then push it to the relevant subscribers.
 
My big concern about that (even if it works with most browsers today)--we would still be relying on an outside third party. Having notifications pushed by our own server directly to the end user, not via the browser vendor, ensures that we always have availability (in the event the browser vendors start charging for the service, or discontinue it). Not a big deal really--just food for thought. :)
 
Actually, push notifications are one of the major reasons, yes, but another feature that I see as being just as valuable that can only come from an app is the ability to add the app to the list of destinations a photo can be posted to from a user's mobile device when they're viewing their "sharing" options for a photo. This is how so many people quickly share media these days from their mobile devices, and it tends to be the basis for which they start a conversation with people in their network. They take a photo and choose where they want to post that photo online - whether it be FB, IG, Twitter, Snapchat, Pinterest, etc. I'd like our website to be in that list.

In the automotive world for example, users try to troubleshoot a problem they're having. If they could snap a photo, choose our site as a destination, and post a new thread with that photo becoming an attachment, it would make the process extremely simple. This is happening daily on FB. And troubleshooting is just one of many reasons people would use it this way in our industry. Asking questions, sharing event photos, posting photos of their cars... the list is long.

The act of taking the photo is quickly becoming the starting point to creating a discussion/dialogue, as opposed to opening a browser, navigating to the website, choosing the forum and starting a thread and going through the process of attaching an image. You can go that route on FB too, but so many have become used to the secondary path of starting with taking a photo.

I'd love it if our users could take a photo and choose our site as a source to post that photo - either to a new thread, a reply, a status message in their profile, or to a showcase item (via the Showcase add-on from Bob) they've previously created. Car enthusiasts have a lot of reasons to share photos from their devices, and if they could quickly share media on our site this way it would open a new door for them to start participating.

I realize that planning out how that would work would be pretty intense, but it's one of the huge conveniences that social apps have that forums do not.
 
Last edited:
My big concern about that (even if it works with most browsers today)--we would still be relying on an outside third party. Having notifications pushed by our own server directly to the end user, not via the browser vendor, ensures that we always have availability (in the event the browser vendors start charging for the service, or discontinue it). Not a big deal really--just food for thought. :)
The problem is, there's really no way to arbitrarily just send a push notification to a device. Every single push notification your devices currently receive inside a native app is pushed to you via your software vendor's (i.e. Google, Apple etc.) infrastructure. Imagine if it wasn't like that, spam push notifications would very much so be a thing, and they aren't. Ok, malicious apps can send unwanted notifications, but even then, they're sent to you because at some point you said "I want to receive notifications from this app". It's going to end up being a very closed system but I think that's a good thing in this case, especially if it means that you can have code that only has a standard method to handle opt ins, a standard request format for sending the notifications, a standardised authentication process (VAPID in the case of push notifications) a standard method to opt out and a standard system for receiving a standardly formatted response from the push server etc.
 
After the push notification bit is sorted and if we implement that we'd be one step closer to a more "Progressive Web App" and we'd have to see if the interest for a native app is still there. I actually suspect it won't be, but we'll see.
Aiming for a Progressive Web App instead of Native Apps is exactly the right approach! (y)
 
  • The company said in an email to advertisers that its apps are the most popular way its 330 million monthly active users access Reddit content on mobile.
  • (The apps) now account for 41 percent of time spent on Reddit across all platforms.
  • Logged-in app users also spend 30 percent more time per day than users who log in from desktop
  • 80 percent of app users don’t access Reddit on desktop.

Those are some pretty striking numbers to me. It just goes to show how compelling a truly native mobile app experience can be when executed correctly.

These stats are pretty skewed by the facts that:
  • Reddit is crap on a mobile browser
  • They practically force you to download the app when they detect you're on mobile
 
@Chris D - is there any thought being put into the image sharing feature I mentioned above? That's always been at the top of my list for a forum web app, right next to push notifications.
 
That kind of thing would need a native app, unfortunately.
I figured. I really believe that the situations where it makes sense in the automotive community are not the only use cases out there, it likely applies to many different community niches. I think it's very important in the way people share media and start discussions with the networks they're engaged with these days. It's become a deciding factor for the user in terms of where they're going to start that discussion - if your website or app is not in that list, chances are, they're going to post it to an app that is on that list and start the discussion around it there.

The logic behind this is similar to the new functionality you guys introduced with the "Start a New Thread" from any page of the forum in XF2 - you're allowing them to skip the drill down and quickly start the process of posting the thread, essentially reversing the process and changing the starting point.
 
Top Bottom