Is there a CMS planned?

[mattysheff]

A CMS is a very obvious expansion point, so it will be something we'll be looking at down the line. It's also something that needs a lot of info from (potential) users. I don't think there's any type of software that means as many different things to different people. It's very important to get the CMS right.

Can you give a estimate on time frames for this? I'm thinking of changing from vbulletin to IPB but may hold off and stick with vbulletin for the time being and then move to xenforo instead but it would need a cms before I could make that move, and when you were with vbulletin a CMS was promised for 8 years and I wouldn't be prepared to wait that long.

 

[Onimua]

Can you give a estimate on time frames for this? I'm thinking of changing from vbulletin to IPB but may hold off and stick with vbulletin for the time being and then move to xenforo instead but it would need a cms before I could make that move, and when you were with vbulletin a CMS was promised for 8 years and I wouldn't be prepared to wait that long.

I think it's a little too early for a time frame at this point.

 

[Grover]

.... and when you were with vbulletin a CMS was promised for 8 years and I wouldn't be prepared to wait that long.

Yes, those were not good memories. And then when it was finally released with much anticipation after all those years (8!!! indeed ), this time by Internet Brands, well... no comment.

 

[mattysheff]

I think it's a little too early for a time frame at this point.

I don't, The developers must have some sort of road map even if is just a plan in their head. They know how important it is to some people and must have considered it. I'm not looking for exact dates but I'd like to know is it going to be within 6 months, a year, two years.

 

[Onimua]

I don't, The developers must have some sort of road map even if is just a plan in their head. They know how important it is to some people and must have considered it. I'm not looking for exact dates but I'd like to know is it going to be within 6 months, a year, two years.

If they say an estimated date and miss it a lot of people are going to be upset with them even if they said it wasn't an exact date and shouldn't be taken as a solid date. People make it difficult for developers any time a date, even an estimated window of time, is introduced.

Right now I would say it far, far too early to even mention other products as XenForo isn't even stable yet.

 

[mattysheff]

If they say an estimated date and miss it a lot of people are going to be upset with them even if they said it wasn't an exact date and shouldn't be taken as a solid date. People make it difficult for developers any time a date, even an estimated window of time, is introduced.

Right now I would say it far, far too early to even mention other products as XenForo isn't even stable yet.

Its a catch 22 for them, if they don't give any information then they risk loosing potential customers, and as a new company I'm sure they need and want as many people buying the product. I can tell you for sure that after paying for a vbulletin licence, if I then buy a IPB licence I certainly won't be folking out for a xenforo licence as well. If I know that within a year or 6 months etc that xenforo will have a cms function that allows me to do what I can now with the vbulletin cms, I'll postpone my purchase until that time. I'm sure many people in the same situation would do the same.

 

[Erik]

Its a catch 22 for them, if they don't give any information then they risk loosing potential customers

Not as many as they would if they announced a CMS would be ready in 6 months and then didn't meet that deadline. People can always hang on and just wait until it's available. On the other hand, it's very hard to regain the trust of customers who are upset that you didn't meet a deadline you set 6 months ago. A CMS will be ready when it's ready. If that's what you need to switch, then you should wait until that date and re-evaluate.

If the lack of a date will force you to go with IPB, then do so. I'm sure they would much rather have you use a competing product right now then risk giving you false information and failing to meet their promises to you down the line.

 

[mattysheff]

Not as many as they would if they announced a CMS would be ready in 6 months and then didn't meet that deadline. People can always hang on and just wait until it's available. On the other hand, it's very hard to regain the trust of customers who are upset that you didn't meet a deadline you set 6 months ago. A CMS will be ready when it's ready. If that's what you need to switch, then you should wait until that date and re-evaluate.

If the lack of a date will force you to go with IPB, then do so. I'm sure they would much rather have you use a competing product right now then risk giving you false information and failing to meet their promises to you down the line.

I appreciate that and I doubt anyone would hold them to the date if they said roughly 6 to 12 months or 1 to 2 years, I'm not asking for specific dates, I'm looking for a broad idea of when its likely to be. The problem people were told a cms was coming kier was lead developer of vbulletin and it took years.

 

[Peggy]

Right at this moment, their only concern is with producing a firm, stable platform and forum, as it should be. Once that is released, then they'll concern themselves with additional add-ons, I'm sure.

 

[HydraulicJack]

...Obviously a lot, a lot of disgruntled vBulletin customers would be very interested to say the least.

... and I feel like I'm near the front of that line... whoa it's really crowded here at the front of that line!

 

[Erik]

The problem people were told a cms was coming kier was lead developer of vbulletin and it took years.

You just illustrated my point for me. They don't want to give anyone a date because quite probably they have no idea.

 

[Anthony Parsons]

The support is just around the corner. I heard somewhere that August (right now) is when they "validate" and finalize HTML5 to worldwide.

Where did you hear that exactly? Right now, W3C still have it in working draft: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/

It was theorized that it wouldn't be candidate recommendation until 2022, however; W3C believe they will have it at candidate recommendation by 2012, as its modelling seems to be coming along faster than anticipated.

Do you have some source to your statement? I haven't seen an inkling of this from Ian Hickson, being the editor of HTML5.

 

[Forsaken]

Where did you hear that exactly? Right now, W3C still have it in working draft: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/

It was theorized that it wouldn't be candidate recommendation until 2022, however; W3C believe they will have it at candidate recommendation by 2012, as its modelling seems to be coming along faster than anticipated.

Do you have some source to your statement? I haven't seen an inkling of this from Ian Hickson, being the editor of HTML5.

Around the corner - 2020; I think thats the date they're intending to make it an actual gold standard. 

mattyshelf: When they were with vBulletin they weren't in charge of the vision of the company, or software, therefore they were limited in what they were capable of doing. Look at how vB4 has come out under IB; it still lacks the vision that customers wanted (Mike and Kiers vision were scrapped for expediency).

This is built from the ground up with the concept to meet the needs of its users, so while you're likely going to have to wait for a CMS, there is more then likely a solution in the future, but they do need to focus on their forum product until they're stable enough to start work on any other products.

A temporary solution is possibly likely by the community (I'm intending to do some mods to fill in some lacking functionality), so it is likely something will be offered for a CMS, or at minimum a portal system. 

 

[Mike]

The focus is the forum and the core functionality right now. While that will never be "done", we are first and foremost a forum software, so that needs to be up to scratch before we expand. Keep in mind that you're only seeing this as a user here; I'm sure we'll get a whole lot of different suggestions/questions after people want to configure it to their own needs.

It is definitely too early to talk about time frames for add-ons. That depends on how we feel the core/forum progresses, the scope of an add-on (which in the case of a CMS widely varies), etc. We can't announce any sort of target for something that is just a thought at the back of our minds right now. (You may find that an add-on pops up that fills your needs, though obviously I can't guarantee that.)

 

[Floris]

Well, you would get my money for each stand alone product if there's a wiki - done right, a portal/frontpage or cms - done right, as well as a blog - done right. Having these products work together on the core engine XF, would not be a bad thing.

I always personally disliked there you can't just replace a portal or wordpress, etc, with a stand alone product, that can even run on it's own sub domain, to power a complete business site. It's always putting various things together, a vB forum, a wordpress blog, and a coppermine gallery, a mediawiki wiki, etc.

For a business it's worth the money if you can buy these 5+ products (or those you need) and have the consistency, the same performance, support, security, etc. You'd save so much time building a business online, and you can focus on your members' area and your products/services and your content, your customers, documentation, etc. Instead of having to hire someone to bridge it all together, and what not.

Secretly I still hope that there's a company in the future that takes that step and dares to join those markets very by version, product by product, and do it right.

 

[HydraulicJack]

We can't announce any sort of target for something that is just a thought at the back of our minds right now. (You may find that an add-on pops up that fills your needs, though obviously I can't guarantee that.)

How nice to hear a frank yet timely response directly from one of the creators, about an issue that is so important to a number of us.
Just keep talking to us from time to time Mike, with whatever you can honestly say about our concerns..., it's very appreciated! And I hope CMS continues to be discussed here, and its development energized as soon as is practical without compromising the outstanding quality of the core product.

 

[Shanj]

This was written in parallel with Mike's post above but it does still outline logical options.
From what Mike says it would seem that OPTION TWO and THREE (bridges and mods) are the ways forward for the forseeable future. But that will still need input from M&K.

I agree with Matty on this one. Admins need to know at least something on where they stand in making a decision. Being kept in the dark will lose XF followers. It's also true that setting up a deadline which is then breached will also damage support.

The really big key needs coming up on this board are a cms and a gallery.
A great many, probably most admins are these days used to providing one or both off these for their members. They simply cannot transfer to XF until these services are available in some manner. But they are very keen to transfer.
The time for marketing an innovative forum no matter how good, on its own, is past. Way past. Forums are no longer just forums.

That leaves XF with difficult but not impossible choices.

FIRST there needs to be a statement from XF that the importance of a cms and a gallery is recognised and understood as a central aim, alongside the production of a stable forum. That of course the forum leads the way but that there are plans in place for cms and a gallery.
This kind of reassurance is close to being overdue. Not quite, but anxiety is mounting among the devotees.

SECOND the XF guys need to outline the options.

OPTION ONE Here I think that a provisional schedule could be given. M&K are perfectly skilled in the art of giving what info they can safely give but not over committing themselves.
One way to do it would be to say that while a cms and a gallery will be brought in they can't possibly arrive before DATE 1 and more likely DATE 2. This kind of clarification gives admins the time period they must unavoidably cope with before they can expect the major feature they need to transfer, plus a second longer period they will also have to plan for.
As a business decision M&K have to be planning this kind of schedule anyway because I doubt if they'll get enough to survive long purely on a forum package. So they need to pull in more customers on a more complex package within a certain period of time. They're astute guys so they'll know that.
Therefore the timeframe has to already exist provisionally and could be shared - with a great deal of emphasis on unforeseen factors.

OPTION TWO Providing bridges to existing packages. A much smaller project and one that could
a) be provided MUCH sooner.
b) satisfy the ravenous hordes of wannabe XF buyers, and
c) buy time to develop XF's own version benefiting from feedback on how the other packages work.
d) OR stay with the bridging if it works out wel. XF could specialise in being a central forum, high performance, with innovative flexible ways of bridging and adapting external packages.

OPTION TWO Here we go the mod route. This is perfectly feasible to have something available within a short period of XF rolling out as a forum. Some mods have a lot more time than M&S have - they don't have to support the main XF so they can go full-on to produce a cms or gallery.
But as I see iot this would need at least some input from M&S to ensure that the modded cms/s or gallery/ies integrate well. I expect M&S know people in the circuit who would produce good stuff.
It then remains to decide whether OPTION TWO or THREE - bridges or mods, get priority and decision 2 is whether these work out well enough for XF to concen trate on integrating bridges and mods without developing its own major add-ons.
There's something to be said for the latter. Ensuring fast and tight integration (e.g. no double logins) means a whole world of possibilities in adding on lots of other services which others have developed, and the link adds quality and prestige to XF.

So an interesting decision path.
But first I think we need an interim statement about XF recognising the urgency on cms and gallery. With a minimum wait time ie no possibility before that time but it could take longer.
Any further idea on the bridges and mods route would be very welcome.
I for one would lov e to know what kind of relatrionship XF is going to have with its modders - a separate website to directory them all? part of this one perhapos with a separate XF? or just leav e it completely independent?
This is also a key part of the decision to transfer to XF. Many of us chose the forum we did BECAUSE it had a thriving mod community.

 

[mattysheff]

The really big key needs coming up on this board are a cms and a gallery.
A great many, probably most admins are these days used to providing one or both off these for their members. They simply cannot transfer to XF until these services are available in some manner. But they are very keen to transfer.
The time for marketing an innovative forum no matter how good, on its own, is past. Way past. Forums are no longer just forums.

That leaves XF with difficult but not impossible choices.

FIRST there needs to be a statement from XF that the importance of a cms and a gallery is recognised and understood as a central aim, alongside the production of a stable forum. That of course the forum leads the way but that there are plans in place for cms and a gallery.
This kind of reassurance is close to being overdue. Not quite, but anxiety is mounting among the devotees.

SECOND the XF guys need to outline the options.

OPTION ONE Here I think that a provisional schedule could be given. M&K are perfectly skilled in the art of giving what info they can safely give but not over committing themselves.
One way to do it would be to say that while a cms and a gallery will be brought in they can't possibly arrive before DATE 1 and more likely DATE 2. This kind of clarification gives admins the time period they must unavoidably cope with before they can expect the major feature they need to transfer, plus a second longer period they will also have to plan for.
As a business decision M&K have to be planning this kind of schedule anyway because I doubt if they'll get enough to survive long purely on a forum package. So they need to pull in more customers on a more complex package within a certain period of time. They're astute guys so they'll know that.
Therefore the timeframe has to already exist provisionally and could be shared - with a great deal of emphasis on unforeseen factors.

Thank you, you put the point I was trying to get across so elegantly, at the moment we've not even had any confirmation of whether in the distant future they we even do a CMS, all we've have is a vague maybe.

 

[Peggy]

Ah geeze people!

No one is keeping anyone in the dark about anything. Didn't you even read Mike's post above??

For cramminies sake, they just opened this forum, what, a month ago, if that? The forum itself isn't finished and released yet. THAT is where their main focus is, as it should be. I highly doubt that they're even thinking about a CMS yet, as they're trying to get you a strong, stable platform and forum into your hands. Then, and only then, will they start considering additional add-ons.

..... at the moment we've not even had any confirmation of whether in the distant future they we even do a CMS, all we've have is a vague maybe.

And that's all you're likely to get at this time, since a CMS is not in the scope of their thinking at this time.

Relax on the demands. When and if they decide that a CMS is in the cards, they will let you know, I assure you.

 

[Shanj]

Ah geeze people!
No one is keeping anyone in the dark about anything. Didn't you even read Mike's post above??

As I added to my post I wrote it at the same time Mike wrote his - didn't you see that?

The forum itself isn't finished and released yet. THAT is where their main focus is, as it should be.

Yes we all know that. No one's criticising that.

I highly doubt that they're even thinking about a CMS yet, as they're trying to get you a strong, stable platform and forum into your hands. Then, and only then, will they start considering additional add-ons.
And that's all you're likely to get at this time, since a CMS is not in the scope of their thinking at this time.

If they're not even thinking about it then they should b e. Business isn''t like that. You can't just concen trate on one thing and refuse to look at other important issues. You can't just put out a basic product that doesn't have any of the usual things that go with it and expect people to buy it.
I run a business - my third successful one in 30 years - and I'd go bust sharpish if I treated my customers like that.
Customers will always want the next thing and if you want to keep them buying you either supply it or you let them know when you will. Otherwise they WILL NOT BUY.

There are a huge number of people interested in XF. But they already have communities to transfer and they need these services to do it. I outlined realistic options in business mode for M&K to plan on how to service the business demand they have. They can set a roadmap for doing it themselves, or for bridging or working in association with mods.

But to flatly say "your urgent concerns are of no interest to us so we're not even thinking about them" is business suicide. You're not helping them to imply they are being that silly.
Myself I have great respect for them so I'm certain they have a plan. After all it's a long time since they left their previous jobs so they#ve had preparation time, and the work on XF itself right now has got to be done in such a way as to allow for one decision path or another on these two issues: cms, gallery.

When and if they decide that a CMS is in the cards, they will let you know, I assure you.

Then an awful lot of people will be deciding that when and if XF decides to do a cms or gallery or both, they'll let XF know if they're interested in being customers.

Not a problem for me as it happens. If I can get someone do do one mod for me I'm in. But I'm looking at this as an experienced business owner who admires and likes M&K's work and as an experienced business person who wants them to succeed.