BikeGremlin
Active member
This is a good example (in my native):
A forum + a website + a used bicycle & parts market (runs on an old version of IP Board):
https://www.2bike.rs/
Invision community Vs Xenforo
- Thread starter Feline Forums
- Start date
This is a good example (in my native):
A forum + a website + a used bicycle & parts market (runs on an old version of IP Board):
https://www.2bike.rs/
Opus X
Well-known member
seem like they track a lot more than digitalpoint?
and it is limited to top 1 million sites not all sites.
looking at list they actually give links to sites not just numbers.
but what is big deal?
run what you like and what you want.
Im not sure whose data is better. But I do know anecdotally that for every 1 XenForo I come across, I find perhaps 2 or 3 Discourse and slightly above 0 IPB or vBulletin. Im sure my data is skewed too, but Im not sure there is clear data one way the other, if we are to consider the possibility that internet standard tools such as wappalyzer.com and builtwith are wrong. Which is ... worth entertaining.this is VERY questionable data
according to this https://www.wappalyzer.com/compare/discourse-vs-xenforo/
and this
the whole picture is completely different
View attachment 305826
Id also note that another common tool has Vanilla leading the pack after BBPress and that has to be wrong right? lol Not much faith in these tools https://www.similartech.com/categories/forum-software
For what its worth as I had never guessed that builtwith could be wrong but since @Slavik felt so strongly, I thought I would consider his point and do some digging. I just clicked on a bunch of the links here: https://trends.builtwith.com/cms/forum-software/traffic/Top-100k
And while I know for a fact some sites are missing from the list and I found a few that was unclear if software was right or wrong, the ones I manually checked were all surprisingly correct. The right software, passed the sniff test on traffic visually, etc. While it may not be 100% accurate, I could not (at least in the hour or so I spent) find too many issues with the data.
And while I know for a fact some sites are missing from the list and I found a few that was unclear if software was right or wrong, the ones I manually checked were all surprisingly correct. The right software, passed the sniff test on traffic visually, etc. While it may not be 100% accurate, I could not (at least in the hour or so I spent) find too many issues with the data.
⭐ Alex ⭐
Well-known member
Idk but they are pretty poop, I used my real email address to try and download the results and then it still said I have to pay and furthermore when I wanted to export it said: https://builtwith.com/killed
I just wanted to see if my forum is in their list or not.
Forsaken
Well-known member
There is a huge issue with the data, which is that their data is extremely small, or the criteria to be part of their data set is extremely strict. XF only having 125 sites, and IPB having only 235 is laughably small.
While the data on the site may be accurate, the amount of data clearly is not accurate. @digitalpoint may also not be completely accurate, but I also do not know of any statistic site that is without bias.
I do see several sites on the IPB list that I know actively want to move off of IPB, and have for a while.
I am not convinced though. Like who determines what is top 100k? And to be clear thats top 100k of ALL sites. That might be accurate then. Thats what .1% of all top 100k sites? What do we expect the number to be? I doubt its 1%, considering WordPress, Shopify, Squarespace, custom, etc. etc. are all options. That number doesnt seem too far off imo, anectodally.
With so many going headless itll be hard to know, but I dont know anyone who went headless XenForo, so that number may be off by obviously some factor, I imagine the magnitude is not off. I cannot think of a more reliable source, but not saying that it is perfect. Id love to hear from @digitalpoint though as obviously he will know more than I would. Im just saying that I feel like what I was reading in the thread here is a debate about:
a) is IPB a competitor
b) is XenForo more popular
And to me, from the data and experiences, my answers would be
a) Absolutely
b) Depends on top N sites you are considering. More popular yes, but perhaps not by the more highly visited sites. (we also should consider convenience in pirating but for another day haha)
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Forsaken
Well-known member
I think @digitalpoint is just raw data from cookie data gathered by his spider; we do not know how big a data set it is, or how the number of sites breaks down to be.
The data likely isn't far off for their data set, but the argument that the data is applied to is not the same. IPB says that XF isn't a competitor, but a statistic shows that XF has a much larger install base than IPB. Another data set (that limits the data set inherently) shows that more businesses prefer IPB, but that does not change the original argument. It is not apples to apples, and comes down to an argument that is not winnable at the end of the day. And honestly, the argument doesn't matter.
I actually agree with your points, I just do not agree with how different data sets are being used to argue semantics as they're not actually applicable to one other, as they are separate arguments (popularity overall vs popularity within a certain metric).
imno007
Well-known member
Well, your two examples also have widely different stats, so they aren't just completely different from digitalpoints, they're also completely different from each other, the first showing Xenforo having a bigger market share than Discourse and IPB, the second showing Xenforo tied with IPB and Discourse with a much bigger market share than the other two. Might be best to take all these charts with a grain of salt.this is VERY questionable data
according to this https://www.wappalyzer.com/compare/discourse-vs-xenforo/
and this
the whole picture is completely different
View attachment 305826
Message boards market share, websites and contacts - Wappalyzer
Download a list of websites using Message boards technologies with email addresses, phone numbers and company profiles.
www.wappalyzer.com
zappaDPJ
Well-known member
That's my understanding. I imagine from the methodology used it represents a rather accurate comparison of installations and migrations by percentage.
What it doesn't detail is the number of pirated installations which is probably the only major factor that might skew the data to some degree. It's also not a representation of site traffic or the actual number of installations for any given platform.
Comparisons with other data collection sites is meaningless unless you know the criteria within which that data is collected.
RaptureForums
Active member
I'll throw out my $.02 for what it is worth.
I started with vBulletin in 2006 with my forum. It worked fine and I believe some of the developers here now were there at that time, too. I definitely remember seeing Kier's name way back then.
When they left, vBulletin was not the same with their big new release (I think version 4) that was buggy. I eventually found Xenforo and saw that Kier was there as well as some of the same other staff. That made me feel good and I knew that Xenforo would be a good product. It was an easy choice for me to go with XenForo. And I do not regret it.
While the Xenforo updates seem to be about once every 2 months that is fine with me as I don't have any problems with the software. It works well, does what it is supposed to do, and I don't spend time worrying about it.
I couldn't say that about vBulletin after they left. I think a lot us know that from experience.
I bought Xenforo and the renewal price is just right for me. The pricing at IPB is just too expensive. Maybe it does have more out of the box as far as features, but maybe not. I don't know. I don't need all of that.
When I upgraded to XF 2.3, I uninstalled all my add-ons to upgrade and had no problems with the software working like it was supposed. I did have a minor issue with the custom style, but Russ helped me with that and it was a real easy fix.
Again, Xenforo worked like it was supposed to and upgrading was painless as usual.
As for Reddit, there are some good things about it, but I'm not a fan of the up and down numbers or the way they allow people to reply to a post underneath the post. It keeps getting really complicated going through all the replies, etc. I like the way Xenforo keep things in a continuous running conversation mode. No rabbit trails to go down with many replies to a single post, etc. This to me and is just my opinion, but I like this simplicity. It is easy to follow the way forums like Xenforo are.
Reddit might be one person's cup of tea, but it is not mine.
I realize Xenforo might not be labelled "modern" by social media's standards, but that's ok.
I like the way forums don't limit the number of characters you can post, etc. like social media does. This, to me, allows for more meaningful engagement between members and people.
Some of us don't have the "New York minute" attention spans that social media users have so that sitting here and talking about something like this thread would be too much for today's social media users.
I looked at the "slow" updates as some people called them as being more that there was no need to update the software. I have come to expect quality from Xenforo and they do not disappoint. The support on the main site is very good as well.
I agree with the other users here that IPB seems to be focused on the business and enterprise market, but that is fine. They can do whatever they want. And Xenforo can do what they want.
We all will pick what works for us. I do think they are paying attention to Xenforo as they should because Xenforo is their competitior even if they don't think so or don't want to admit it. They would be foolish not to pay attention.
I think Xenforo needs to keep doing what they are doing and don't look back.
JMHO for what it is worth.
I started with vBulletin in 2006 with my forum. It worked fine and I believe some of the developers here now were there at that time, too. I definitely remember seeing Kier's name way back then.
When they left, vBulletin was not the same with their big new release (I think version 4) that was buggy. I eventually found Xenforo and saw that Kier was there as well as some of the same other staff. That made me feel good and I knew that Xenforo would be a good product. It was an easy choice for me to go with XenForo. And I do not regret it.
While the Xenforo updates seem to be about once every 2 months that is fine with me as I don't have any problems with the software. It works well, does what it is supposed to do, and I don't spend time worrying about it.
I couldn't say that about vBulletin after they left. I think a lot us know that from experience.
I bought Xenforo and the renewal price is just right for me. The pricing at IPB is just too expensive. Maybe it does have more out of the box as far as features, but maybe not. I don't know. I don't need all of that.
When I upgraded to XF 2.3, I uninstalled all my add-ons to upgrade and had no problems with the software working like it was supposed. I did have a minor issue with the custom style, but Russ helped me with that and it was a real easy fix.
Again, Xenforo worked like it was supposed to and upgrading was painless as usual.
As for Reddit, there are some good things about it, but I'm not a fan of the up and down numbers or the way they allow people to reply to a post underneath the post. It keeps getting really complicated going through all the replies, etc. I like the way Xenforo keep things in a continuous running conversation mode. No rabbit trails to go down with many replies to a single post, etc. This to me and is just my opinion, but I like this simplicity. It is easy to follow the way forums like Xenforo are.
Reddit might be one person's cup of tea, but it is not mine.
I realize Xenforo might not be labelled "modern" by social media's standards, but that's ok.
I like the way forums don't limit the number of characters you can post, etc. like social media does. This, to me, allows for more meaningful engagement between members and people.
Some of us don't have the "New York minute" attention spans that social media users have so that sitting here and talking about something like this thread would be too much for today's social media users.
I looked at the "slow" updates as some people called them as being more that there was no need to update the software. I have come to expect quality from Xenforo and they do not disappoint. The support on the main site is very good as well.
I agree with the other users here that IPB seems to be focused on the business and enterprise market, but that is fine. They can do whatever they want. And Xenforo can do what they want.
We all will pick what works for us. I do think they are paying attention to Xenforo as they should because Xenforo is their competitior even if they don't think so or don't want to admit it. They would be foolish not to pay attention.
I think Xenforo needs to keep doing what they are doing and don't look back.
JMHO for what it is worth.
Mouth
Well-known member
You need to use and understand that data being represented correctly. To derive XF of 125, you're looking at XF, by CMS | forum software category, within top 100k of sites by traffic. Forum software is a very small percentage of top 100k sites by traffic, and XF a smaller percentage again.
If you go to the next stats level up, CMS | forum category within top 100m sites by traffic, you now have XF at 1,375 (and more than IPS). Forum category is still a very small percentage within the top 100m sites, ~ only 1%
Up to the next stats level again, all sites with CMS, of which they detect ~75% of the top 100m, and XF's 1,375 count represents 0.14%.
Forsaken
Well-known member
I understand the data; I am directly responding to the data used by @findozor which showed only 125 sites for XenForo, in comparison to @digitalpoint's which are all installs that his spider has collected. Using a limited data set vs a data set that has no similarity restrictions is cherry picking and changing the focus of a discussion; either it was done by mistake, or it is done in bad faith
.
vbresults
Well-known member
Many moons ago, I submitted BuiltWith detection patterns for a version of vBulletin (and possibly XenForo). Computed fields are not so good (i.e. country detection) but that the case for every platform like that, there are bound to be limitations as a lot of it is guesswork.
That aside, BuiltWith has the most extensive catalogue of "tech used" detection out there (in this case, IPS, XF). I thought Discourse was eating more into IPS's market share as it's built on Rails which was all the rage with startups and it is also open-source & free, accelerating adoption.
Here is the data; it looks like aside from Flarum (which is also free), Discourse is eating everyone else's lunch:
That aside, BuiltWith has the most extensive catalogue of "tech used" detection out there (in this case, IPS, XF). I thought Discourse was eating more into IPS's market share as it's built on Rails which was all the rage with startups and it is also open-source & free, accelerating adoption.
Here is the data; it looks like aside from Flarum (which is also free), Discourse is eating everyone else's lunch:
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andybond
Well-known member
If discourse had a reliable XF2 imported I would likely have moved as well TBH.
Mendalla
Well-known member
I have minimal experience with Invision and only as a community member. It did the job is really all I recall. I am technically still a member on that site but lost interest in the subject matter and the site was a bit quiet on my last visits. Can't really blame Invision for that, though. The product that was the primary subject matter had some upheavals.
I generally dislike negative advertising so this kind of puts me off IPB more than it attracts me. I'm like that with politics, too. Negative campaigning is the surest way to get me to vote for someone other than the negative campaign.
One of my former admin colleagues from the site I run has his own site now running Discourse and I see some things there that I like, though it's more in the social media format (post + comments rather than threaded posts), which is a negative for me, though I have learned to live with it on other sites. If I was spinning up a site with forums today, would probably use XF again just for the familiarity and some add-ons I know I would want.
I generally dislike negative advertising so this kind of puts me off IPB more than it attracts me. I'm like that with politics, too. Negative campaigning is the surest way to get me to vote for someone other than the negative campaign.
One of my former admin colleagues from the site I run has his own site now running Discourse and I see some things there that I like, though it's more in the social media format (post + comments rather than threaded posts), which is a negative for me, though I have learned to live with it on other sites. If I was spinning up a site with forums today, would probably use XF again just for the familiarity and some add-ons I know I would want.
Alpha1
Well-known member
Just throwing some additional data in here.
Wappalyzer shows how many websites they have found in the message board category. As its a plugin browser that is used a lot, its another interesting piece of the puzzle. Of course a browser plugin data collection is limited to the sites that 2.5 million people browse to.
www.wappalyzer.com
It seems that Wappalizer shows similar results to @digitalpoint cookie search. Just with more software included and a different data points.
I think the number of websites using a specific forum software is an interesting metric, but certainly not the only one to consider. A more interesting metric is how many end users are using the software. i.e. how large is the adoption by end users. I think this is the most interesting metric. If users love the software then that's an important metric.
Wappalyzer offers a top 5000 most visited forum websites report, but this is a paid report you can retrieve on that page.
Another interesting metric is how many busy big boards are using the software.
Wappalyzer shows how many websites they have found in the message board category. As its a plugin browser that is used a lot, its another interesting piece of the puzzle. Of course a browser plugin data collection is limited to the sites that 2.5 million people browse to.
Message boards market share, websites and contacts - Wappalyzer
Download a list of websites using Message boards technologies with email addresses, phone numbers and company profiles.
www.wappalyzer.com
I think the number of websites using a specific forum software is an interesting metric, but certainly not the only one to consider. A more interesting metric is how many end users are using the software. i.e. how large is the adoption by end users. I think this is the most interesting metric. If users love the software then that's an important metric.
Wappalyzer offers a top 5000 most visited forum websites report, but this is a paid report you can retrieve on that page.
Another interesting metric is how many busy big boards are using the software.
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findozor
Active member
another way to indirectly estimate the audience of the platform's users is monthly organic traffic
according to similarweb average in last 3 months
https://www.similarweb.com/website/discourse.org/ 358
https://www.similarweb.com/website/meta.discourse.org/ 191 = 549K
https://www.similarweb.com/website/xenforo.com/ 312K
https://www.similarweb.com/website/invisioncommunity.com/ 122K
which shows a correlation with the builtwith data
according to similarweb average in last 3 months
https://www.similarweb.com/website/discourse.org/ 358
https://www.similarweb.com/website/meta.discourse.org/ 191 = 549K
https://www.similarweb.com/website/xenforo.com/ 312K
https://www.similarweb.com/website/invisioncommunity.com/ 122K
which shows a correlation with the builtwith data
I agree with this, just dry number of sites itself can distort the real picture for various reasons
- ease of piracy and installation (the number will be heavily skewed towards xenforo because of the infrastructure that distributes nulled software)
- organic traffic and age (that directly affects success, the higher the ratio among all installations the better the software meets the requirements of owners and users)
imno007
Well-known member
IPB isn't Cloud only yet, so I'm not sure how much "ease of piracy" is skewing the numbers right now. It just took me literally less than a minute to a find a nulled copy of the latest IPB. And while the current checks might present some problems for installing the latest addons, I'm not sure if those can't be got around. I see a lot of pirated addons, too, with 2024 dates. Anyway, although Cloud-only services will definitely cut down on piracy, all the people who resort to piracy simply because they don't have the money, or aren't motivated enough to spend the money, will often content themselves with older versions. Old copies of Photoshop, for example, are still very much in circulation - and I've seen versions of it claiming to be as late as 2022, so apparently people still have some way of cobbling these things together.
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