Opus X
Well-known member
from the site i am a member of all those would be plug ins.
none of them are enabled on the help site i joined.
Invision community Vs Xenforo
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none of them are enabled on the help site i joined.
Arantor
Well-known member
Likely none of them are even installed on the help site. SMF has nothing in the vein of “official” plugins (it has loosely a number that are supported by the team but it’s never been official), and the nearest thing to an official plug-in definitely isn’t in use there.
In any case, Tracy’s info is somewhat jumping the gun. Invision have stated that for the life of 5.x, it will be available as a self host option. Given that 3.x was 2009 onwards and 4.x ran from 2015 onwards (5.x isn’t out yet), we can infer that the life of 5.x is likely to be a few years minimum, and the official word is not “6.x is cloud only” but simply that “5.x is available for self hosting”.
The main issue is that by Invision’s own admission, self hosting is a shrinking part of their customer base while costing them more time in support (hence the move to allow community support, though the team do participate). If through the 5.x line the self hosting segment grows, or otherwise shows its relative cost to go down, Matt has said they will consider if it is viable to keep it after that, but nothing is set in stone. I think he would like to keep offering it but they have to remain realistic about what works for their business and its financial model. Whether we like it or not (I don’t, personally), their core business is not us hobbyists.
Also worth noting is that Invision’s licence is $499 to start then $199 for a year’s renewal. You don’t have to stay renewed, you won’t get updates if not, BUT if you let it lapse for 2 years, the entire licence goes away and the next renewal becomes a whole new $499. Not like XF where you can safely let it lapse longer.
In any case, Tracy’s info is somewhat jumping the gun. Invision have stated that for the life of 5.x, it will be available as a self host option. Given that 3.x was 2009 onwards and 4.x ran from 2015 onwards (5.x isn’t out yet), we can infer that the life of 5.x is likely to be a few years minimum, and the official word is not “6.x is cloud only” but simply that “5.x is available for self hosting”.
The main issue is that by Invision’s own admission, self hosting is a shrinking part of their customer base while costing them more time in support (hence the move to allow community support, though the team do participate). If through the 5.x line the self hosting segment grows, or otherwise shows its relative cost to go down, Matt has said they will consider if it is viable to keep it after that, but nothing is set in stone. I think he would like to keep offering it but they have to remain realistic about what works for their business and its financial model. Whether we like it or not (I don’t, personally), their core business is not us hobbyists.
Also worth noting is that Invision’s licence is $499 to start then $199 for a year’s renewal. You don’t have to stay renewed, you won’t get updates if not, BUT if you let it lapse for 2 years, the entire licence goes away and the next renewal becomes a whole new $499. Not like XF where you can safely let it lapse longer.
Opus X
Well-known member
from what i have seen on the site it is a basic smf forum as they did not feel like they could safely run xenforo on it.
this is what he commented on and the he told me that invision has a problem with doing what they say.
if i moved over to it he told me to not expect another release unless they realized that financially it hurt them to not support self hosted.
from what he said, the head of invision made a comment that version 5 was the last self hosted offering.
he also said that could change depending on how hard it hit them in the wallet.
that is what he told me.
but honestly if i move to it unless my site starts making money i will be stuck on what i have.
if i do not have the money to move over then i have to stay static.
have you priced a 10 pack of opus x fuente fuente lately?
you are looking at around $600 literally up in smoke after about 10 hours.
so if i look at a realistic financial benefit the software is a better choice for a return on my money.
i love cigars but tracy is right on pipes are cheaper for those that do not have deep pockets.
and since i want to try to make my site an income source i need to try to decide which is a better solution.
the only reason i run xenforo now is he sold it to me for $25.
i have no big issue with keeping a license valid for running myself.
$200 a year is not that bad for what they give you.
tracy pays a lot more than that for a year from what the information he posted in our staff area.
the problem is i have to agree with him that i don't want to be forced to a cloud package.
I could be wrong but I think that after switching to them, your first interaction here on XenForo will be starting from this link... So think carefully...
AjayJunkies
Well-known member
I'm going to say something spicy.
Self hosted, independent small hobbyists is a shrinking part of everyone's base.
If you look across the entire forum ecosystem, small independent hobbyists (the ones who put up a forum for a "weekend project") are exactly the ones that are most likely to fold.
There is zero rush to make any move. Conduct your own due diligence on what platform offers the right features for your community. You can conduct trials, you can ask presales, you can ask clients other questions both here and on forum admin sites.
Opus X
Well-known member
that is the issue.
invest my $25 and have something that sort of meets what I want in a basic format.
invest $500 and possibly have something that opens more paths of expanding.
the biggest sticking point for me is i want to stay with a program that i can run on my own site.
i don't want to have to be forced to host it on a package deal that i have no real control over.
no different than if i move my site to another program.
most of them offer a path to moving from what i have found.
it is a move to a different software.
only thing is i already am running on xenforo.
so i can see the limitations it has compared to what i see on invision.
once they get version 5 released i will look at their demonstration and then compare.
that way i can have a more realistic view.
it ultimately revolves on how i want to spend that money.
do i want a software that gives me a lot or do i want a software that gives me basic and i have to pay even more to get to where i would like to be.
i did some addition on what it would cost and in the end if i can program in invisions pages offering i come out cheaper.
i am intelligent enough to be able to figure out how to do at least some basic offerings in the pages pages which is included.
and i do not have to buy a calendar or clubs plug-in.
with xenforo i have to pay extra for outside plug-ins to get those features i would like.
my main concern would be can i offer close to the same feature in their pages offering.
that depends ultimately on my skill level.
i am not bound to any program.
i want to try to find the best fit for my site so that hopefully i can make some money from it.
Davyc
Well-known member
That's a given - as those who are into forums get older (and some pass away) there's really no one there to pick up the reins. How far down the line it is for the extinction level event to happen is unknown.
As for Invision, they change like the wind and what is said today can often become history tomorrow. So I would err on the side of caution. I would hazard a guess that they will, eventually, retire the self-hosted option as they move ever closer to Corporate clients and anyone wishing to stay on their platform will have to migrate to a cloud version; the cheapest, for now, to get the whole non-crippled package is $1788 for an annual subscription. The lesser one has a crippled version of pages and that runs at $1068 for a 1-year deal. There is a smaller package with forums and calendar only at $588 per year if paid upfront for a year.
It's strange that they do not display usage limits for each package as they used to, but will move you to the next level automatically if you go over your limit (in the past this has been a certain number of users online at any one time in a 48-hour period). This information is in their FAQs.
With Xenforo, their cheapest cloud package is $648 if paid upfront annually, and you get all first party add-ons included and 400,000 monthly page views as your usage limit. So, XF is significantly cheaper, and you have access to third-party apps via their on-site resource manager. Invision got rid of their third-party marketplace, so you would have to go hunting the Internet for anything you need; there is also a risk that developers who used their marketplace will no longer be developing.
As with Xenforo, if you go cloud you have no access to the server, so adding anything manually is out of the question.
Invision are focussed on Corporates who have deep pockets and are lucrative for their business model, whereas XF is open to all, has a great user base and fantastic third-party developers, and whilst they may not be whizzing ahead with new versions, they are at least solid. I would stick with XF and give Invision a wide berth, especially if you intend to be around for a long time.
On a personal note, I'm 70 years old in November, very happy with my two sites and extremely happy with the support I have received from both first party and third-party developers. My sites just run, and I can fiddle with them as much or as little as I wish.
There's a saying 'Better the devil you know than the devil you don't' or you can go with 'caveat emptor' if that's more your flavour, lol.
Whatever anyone decides, and wherever you choose to lay your hat, good fortune to one and all.
Arantor
Well-known member
Tracy also has issues that Invision decided to take a prudent financial move over a decade ago because he doesn't understand what 'lifetime' means, he thinks it means 'his lifetime' and not 'lifetime of product'.
Matt M has not at all said it would be the last offering, that's my point. He has said, they will guarantee it being an option through the 5.x series, but will re-evaluate this at the end of 5.x's life and whether it's still sustainable for 6.x.
What people like Tracy choose to ignore because it doesn't fit their narrative, is that Invision's choices are about survival and growth of the company - if they continued to support self-hosted with the same enthusiasm they do their cloud customers, they'd have fewer customers, period. And their company would be growing less, if at all. It would be wonderful if they gave out their flagship product at an affordable price - but then they'd have to cut the team size, or something else, to make it financially viable.
IPS's team is also considerably larger than XF's team (I believe it's passed the 20 person mark now) so they have to do what makes financial sense for the company for the good of the majority of customers - self-hosting, whether we like it or not, is a shrinking part of their customer base. They are not going to continue to spend more resources on a minority unless it pays its way, it really is that simple.
That's not spicy, that's just realistic. Unfortunately it's inconvenient for the self-hosted/independent/small hobbyists, and efforts to push back in the other direction get shouted down by the zealots who want premium products at a budget price because they feel they're 'not being listened to'.
I love how this is touted but the number of occasions this has actually happened is far smaller than people think. People here still hold a grudge about IPB 2.0 not being free from 20 years ago, despite the fact that if it had done so, Invision as a company would have collapsed and none of this conversation would be happening.
I don't particularly want to dig it up as a grudge match - we've all been there way too many times - but when was the last time this really happened? If anything, 5.x being guaranteed self hosting is almost one of those times because there was definitely a point where 4.x would have been the last self-hosted option just because it's dwindling that hard by comparison.
You make this sound like a gotcha, but Invision has not been shy about admitting that this is where they see sustainable development - the hobbyists just aren't enough to sustain the company, and haven't been for years, but again see size of business as a factor in this decision.
The corporates don't have the same demands about functionality that hobbyists do, they don't have the same support costs either because of cloud.
There are quite some inconvenient truths about hosting services should one go looking; I used to work on hosting Moodle - an open source product, completely free - and the cheapest hosting plan we offered for that was north of £3k a month, for a system you could run yourself, and yet we never had any shortage of work on the subject.
Indeed. Both products have upsides and downsides and one will suit better than another for a given situation.
Davyc
Well-known member
Not at all, it's merely an observation based on their own feedback regarding how the hobbyist market is not sustainable for them; if that's their perception based on their own figures, then it is what it is.
To be honest, I couldn't care less what direction Invision are heading, or what other people's perception are regarding their business model, or what they are charging for their wares. I've been there, done it, regretted it and got out of it, and now I've found a happier place to lay my hat.
Opus X
Well-known member
does matt m run the company?
i thought that it was another name he mentioned.
i thought i remembered reading ticket support is a paid option.
and that applied to everyone no matter your platform?
Arantor
Well-known member
Matt M is the founder, lead developer and regular on the admin forum circuit. He may have mentioned Lindy and Charles who are the business runners, but they're all the senior management team together - and if Matt says something is so, there need to be a lot of circumstances otherwise.
Ticket support is a paid option, yes, but most of the time you won't need ticket support anyway (just as it is here, majority of support is in the community)
That said, there are community boards for support - and, crucially, IPS staff do post in them. The key point is that ticket support is firmly 1:1 rather than for common benefit. You want 1:1 time, you pay for that, similar to if you want it dealt with NOW rather than in the short term future.
Opus X
Well-known member
then where is the additional support cost?
i can see it for ticket support but if they are already paying extra for that then there is no additional non compensated cost?
but if your staff is already doing support on the forum they are going to be answering questions as it is.
if they update the cloud version i would expect similar updates would be able to be rolled out to the version people can run on their own.
so there might be additional development cost.
but that should not be that large.
tracy was clear when talked that they really want commercial customers.
and that xenforo was more for the hobby and also those that wanted commercial.
and that the offerings were not the same between them.
i can see it for ticket support but if they are already paying extra for that then there is no additional non compensated cost?
but if your staff is already doing support on the forum they are going to be answering questions as it is.
if they update the cloud version i would expect similar updates would be able to be rolled out to the version people can run on their own.
so there might be additional development cost.
but that should not be that large.
tracy was clear when talked that they really want commercial customers.
and that xenforo was more for the hobby and also those that wanted commercial.
and that the offerings were not the same between them.
Arantor
Well-known member
Sometimes. There are features that aren't available to self hosted editions (and are never going to be even in 5.x)
That's the thing: when you deal with server environments you manage, when you can get into all the things yourself, the cost of support goes down because fewer things that you have to deal with, fewer unknowns that can eat your time up.
There won't be support questions for 'my host randomly up/downgraded something and now it doesn't work' type issues which even though they're not really covered, will absolutely come up, and if you can just go get the logs yourself, you can answer things faster.
Just because the team does answer questions, doesn't mean they answer all questions, and no guarantees on a timely answer.
No, the offerings really aren't the same between them. Yes, they want commercial customers, but consider: what is it about IC's offering that appeals to commercial customers in a way the more hobbyist-oriented offering of XF doesn't?
Because that is a reality, folks like Squarespace and Fiverr aren't using XF. And they're not paying the bottom end pricing, either.
Opus X
Well-known member
which they already do.
so that should be easy enough to continue to control.
those are a hosting issue and not an invision issue.
even here i see regularly staff telling license holders that.
and for invision the license holder can be told that would be a ticket based solution.
no different than a company warrantying something and it only include the parts and then the warranty states that labor is extra.
a pretty good discussion going on here.
having a complete community and not having to keep up with outside plug ins?
at least from some of my reading that is important as they only have one contact point to deal with.
CedricV
Well-known member
There's much to dislike about IPS, but I've always loved the software and company since IPB 1.3. I've only preferred XF since it has a huge resource market. The ability to customize my community is important for me.
But you can be damn sure Charles knows how to run a company and make it sustainable for many years to come. That's something I respect so much as a fellow business owner.
But you can be damn sure Charles knows how to run a company and make it sustainable for many years to come. That's something I respect so much as a fellow business owner.
Taylor J
Well-known member
Take me back to the good ol 2.x days when IPB had a huge addon library please
CedricV
Well-known member
Oh, I'm with ya. Golden era, for sure!
MySiteGuy
Well-known member
For someone who would like to keep self-hosted, he sure does bury it in the information and purchasing funnel.
MySiteGuy
Well-known member
True. There are much bigger and busier corporate forums running Xenforo. And the overall numbers are still changing towards XF, since they entered self-hosting later.
m4n0
New member
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