how many atheists here ?

[OSS 117]

Formerly religious.

 

[woei]

My old friends told me this:

"Remember. No matter what religion you believe, even if you had no religion or atheist, just remember. We all gonna die someday. So do your best when you are alive, make a lot of friends, find your true love, and keep your self happy."

Amen to that

But religion is kinda as your genitals, keep it to yourself and never force it onto children

I can understand the need for people to believe and be part of a religion. It provides comfort and answers to the questions that are difficult to answer. It gives hope and you can blame God for the stuff that happens to you. It gives people the feeling they belong somewhere.

For me, I can only take responsibility for myself and try to live and do good. I did believe in a kind of karma, like do good receive good. Well lets say I have a free card now to do lot's of bad with the stuff happend to me to bring some balance

And about the first posts about discussing if we can discuss religion here, what's wrong with normal freedom of speech. The extremists of any religion have problem with that freedom. But thats the problem with any extremist, even atheist can be extreme to a scary point

O, on a last note. Religion is also very geographic oriented. If I was borne and raised somewhere else, good chance I could have been a hindu, muslim or christian. That said it's strange that people think there god is the only god and other people are by definition wrong. If they have been born somewhere else they would have had a different opinion.

 

[Static-Xbox]

O, on a last note. Religion is also very geographic oriented. If I was borne and raised somewhere else, good chance I could have been a hindu, muslim or christian. That said it's strange that people think there god is the only god and other people are by definition wrong. If they have been born somewhere else they would have had a different opinion.

They would still be wrong. We already know the mormons are the only ones going to heaven /southpark

(should point out, for the sake of staying on topic: athiest)

 

[BirdOPrey5]

Correct, I believe that anyone who says they communicate with dead people are false. Once the electrical pulses in our bodies stop we cease to be. Simple.

If life truly is only electrical pulses in our brain and everything is 100.0000% explainable science then where does free will or "consciousness" come into it? If everything we are made of and made from has no spiritual "spark of life" then is not everything truly predetermined? Was not my entire life and indeed the entire history of the world and the rest of the universe instantly determined at the moment of he big bang as something that could be calculated with enough understanding of the starting condition and the laws of the Universe?

And if the universe is predetermined and we have no free will then what is the point?

 

[EQnoble]

If life truly is only electrical pulses in our brain and everything is 100.0000% explainable science then where does free will or "consciousness" come into it?

When the ability to store memories and then later recall info from them using an organizing principle based on electrochemical signals happens and the subject can react with thought or action based on any sort of emotion intelligence or feeling not derived solely from survival instinct.

If everything we are made of and made from has no spiritual "spark of life" then is not everything truly predetermined?

No because I can choose (or not) to let an emotion (which is determined or at least manipulated by my life experience) change what would have been a predetermined course of action and that can effect not only me but others as well.

Was not my entire life and indeed the entire history of the world and the rest of the universe instantly determined at the moment of the big bang as something that could be calculated with enough understanding of the starting condition and the laws of the Universe?

The laws of our universe are just that, a series of guidelines that everything falls into and they are general instructions for what it is allowed...they do not determine if johnny will take the left or right fork in the road, all they can do is provide the construct for which johnny, his road, the planet it's on and the electrochemical signals which constitute his thoughts and memories can exist.

And on that note, the big bang created physics properties as we know them to exist all the way down to the subatomic...if the big bang happened a billion more times it's highly probably that in the period of time that the universes it creates exist that the fundamental laws of physics would not even support the existence of the atom as we know it.

The point of that being, the outcome of a big bang type event can't be predetermined so there is no way that any form of existence within that which possess consciousness and the ability to choose and make decisions based on anything that isn't hardwired has a life completely comprised of predetermined actions.

And if the universe is predetermined and we have no free will then what is the point?

I could do a thought experiment with you that based on your opinions and thoughts would leave you in a position that your only answer can be that 'there is nothing completely predetermined' but it is probably not appropriate for a public conversation because of the context of the thought flow itself.

 

[BirdOPrey5]

I just don't see how you can get free will from a world where humans are just electrical impulses in a biological brain- why is it that thought would influence the electrical impulses and not the electrical impulses influence thought? It seems very counter-intuitive- in fact I'd say it invokes "magic" that somehow from the sperm and egg combining - what should seemingly be a predicable reaction based on the DNA/genes and womb conditions at some point turns from a parasite into a thinking human being capable of free will. When exactly does this happen? What is the explanation for how it happens? Do other animals have free will? Do insects? Do bacteria? If not, what is the difference- what can we point to and say is different? The brain?

 

[craigiri]

A famous neuroscientist is often interviewed on NPR - sometimes 1/2 hour or more of questions and discussions.

He laughed out loud when asked whether we have free will. We don't.

They have done many scientific tests on this. We don't know ourselves - we don't know what makes us tick, so the concept of free will is very far out. It's an illusion...

We do have intelligence. And we do have maybe 5-10% "free will" (independent decision ability).....but that's like saying a person in a jail cell is free because they can choose to sit on the bed, walk back and forth, etc.

That's not real free will.

All any (male) has to do is think back to when they were 12-14 and puberty came on.....I really really doubt any of us experience free will over those forces.

One of the tests they did was to show guys pictures of female heads - shoulders up. The pics flashed by very quickly, so the subjects did not have time to study them, just to note whether or not they found them attractive.

It turned out that, without knowing it, guys found the women with slightly larger pupils much more attractive...even though guys don't and didn't know that that was a sign of ovulation. Free will? Hah! Electrical impulses....yeah, makes sense. They connected.

The conclusion I always come to about human life and intelligence is that the reality is actually more fantastic and mysterious than what religion can come up with. No story or scripture can encompass it....

I tend to accept those (like Buddhism) which allow for this reality, while also stating our possible purpose at this point in time (helping people, watching our own minds and thought process, etc.)

 

[BirdOPrey5]

A famous neuroscientist is often interviewed on NPR - sometimes 1/2 hour or more of questions and discussions.

He laughed out loud when asked whether we have free will. We don't.

They have done many scientific tests on this. We don't know ourselves - we don't know what makes us tick, so the concept of free will is very far out. It's an illusion...

We do have intelligence. And we do have maybe 5-10% "free will" (independent decision ability).....but that's like saying a person in a jail cell is free because they can choose to sit on the bed, walk back and forth, etc.

That's not real free will.

All any (male) has to do is think back to when they were 12-14 and puberty came on.....I really really doubt any of us experience free will over those forces.

One of the tests they did was to show guys pictures of female heads - shoulders up. The pics flashed by very quickly, so the subjects did not have time to study them, just to note whether or not they found them attractive.

It turned out that, without knowing it, guys found the women with slightly larger pupils much more attractive...even though guys don't and didn't know that that was a sign of ovulation. Free will? Hah! Electrical impulses....yeah, makes sense. They connected.

The conclusion I always come to about human life and intelligence is that the reality is actually more fantastic and mysterious than what religion can come up with. No story or scripture can encompass it....

I tend to accept those (like Buddhism) which allow for this reality, while also stating our possible purpose at this point in time (helping people, watching our own minds and thought process, etc.)

I certainly find this view more consistent with true atheism at least.

If there is no free will then why should we punish murders, rapists, and other criminals- it is after all not their fault- the Universe determined their fate billions of years ago. On the plus side, nothing can ever be wrong- whatever happens is what was always going to happen no matter what.

Whether we help someone in distress or not, doesn't matter- it was never our choice.

Whether we steal a car, or steal money from a friend, doesn't matter, it was never our choice.

Disturbing conclusions, but consistent.

 

[craigiri]

I certainly find this view more consistent with true atheism at least.

If there is no free will then why should we punish murders, rapists, and other criminals- it is after all not their fault- the Universe determined their fate billions of years ago. On the plus side, nothing can ever be wrong- whatever happens is what was always going to happen no matter what.

The scientist addresses much of this in those interviews.

He said we are in the virtual Stone Age of justice. In the future, according to his view, the jury will be instructed as to "which brain" the person on trial has so they can dispense justice in accordance with the particular chemistry.

As an example, a "brain" which was born addicted to crack or heroin and then went through PTSD in Iraq, etc....would be treated differently from one that didn't. In the future (it's almost here now) they will be able to determine this...not by the experiences the person had, but by the actual connections in the brain which can be scanned and measured.

Just as the neuro doubted free will, he said it was fantastic that we judge each person in court by the same set of laws. Ever our current justice system tends to try to take into account "which brain" they are trying. Example: "hero" from the military may be treated differently than a drug-addled civilian even in the same exact transgression, etc.

But, in reality, it may be that the civilian had a brain which required more sympathy. Who knows?

 

[motowebmaster]

Christian

 

[BirdOPrey5]

The scientist addresses much of this in those interviews.

He said we are in the virtual Stone Age of justice. In the future, according to his view, the jury will be instructed as to "which brain" the person on trial has so they can dispense justice in accordance with the particular chemistry.

As an example, a "brain" which was born addicted to crack or heroin and then went through PTSD in Iraq, etc....would be treated differently from one that didn't. In the future (it's almost here now) they will be able to determine this...not by the experiences the person had, but by the actual connections in the brain which can be scanned and measured.

Just as the neuro doubted free will, he said it was fantastic that we judge each person in court by the same set of laws. Ever our current justice system tends to try to take into account "which brain" they are trying. Example: "hero" from the military may be treated differently than a drug-addled civilian even in the same exact transgression, etc.

But, in reality, it may be that the civilian had a brain which required more sympathy. Who knows?

I'd understand that reasoning if we had free will... Obviously a baby can't decide not to be born drug addicted... and while someone can choose not to serve in the military (for now) no one can choose not to get PTSD.

But the question is why should any of this matter if no one has the free will to begin with? Whether they have PTSD or not they had no choice in doing whatever they did.

 

[craigiri]

But the question is why should any of this matter if no one has the free will to begin with? Whether they have PTSD or not they had no choice in doing whatever they did.

Free Will is too broad of a topic....

I think what they are getting at is that people with certain brains DO have more choices.....room around the edges, so to speak. Others have almost no choices...

I've been leaning more toward deemist or maybe broganism....although Zen Forism is always the broader belief here.

 

[Jon W]

I don't disagree that we shouldn't consider whether there is a God based on whether or not we think "free" will exists, but there are so many other things that the God I believe in has shown us to point to his existence. There are, of course, the beautiful things in this world -- like the beauty of spring that @craigiri got tearful over after being without it.

But let's not forget about Jesus, who actually came to earth so that we didn't have to guess about the existence of God any more. I think most people accept that he existed (happy to be corrected on this), yet so few people have read one of the gospel accounts of his life or really understand what his claims were or why we needed him. I spent 27 years of my life calling myself a Christian but avoided looking at the most obvious sign from God.

 

[craigiri]

Lots of men have claimed lots of things about themselves and others - millions of 'em. Lots of these have been retold and translated many a time. I personally knew a "god man" in this life, but he lived long enough to fall from grace. If he would have went in his prime, we'd probably have built a statue.

Authoritarianism and fundamentalism, which are often rolled up in modern judeo-christian dogmas, are both (IMHO) tendencies that we have outgrown...actually, many people do need a "strong leader", and they are appealed to when someone purports to "answer the questions"....unable to assume that they know as much as the guy they are looking up to.

In the states the ignorant are often more drawn to religion (giving big money to televangelists so they will too get rich, etc.), so it's probably not the best examples. Add in all the scandals we have at the highest levels of church and synagogue, and it's not a pretty picture.

Those who quietly live the golden rule are quite another thing. I volunteer for many "christian" outfits and have no problem with their religion, because it consists of only helping others in need.

Simple enough to say "by their fruits you shall know them". Interestingly enough, my forum had the biggest attack ever (mutiny) by a group of members last years who were led and informed by their "born again" status - the fact that I wasn't was enough for them to break every rule, TOS, decent conduct, etc.....all was fine in the "crusade". Theft of IP, members, slander, deceit, libel....they all felt free doing it because it was against the "liberals".

 

[Jon W]

Jesus claimed he was going to die and then come back to life 3 days later. Any men you know who have actually claimed and done that?

There are, unfortunately, so many scandals involving the church and other religions. That just shows us how much of a broken world we live in (and hence why we are in such a desparate need for Jesus), rather than disproving that Jesus was the son of God and did actually rise from the dead.

I would, of course, absolutely condemn any such attack on your site in the name of a "crusade". That they "felt" free doing it shows the problem. Following God's will isn't a matter of feelings. He has made his will perfectly clear in the Bible. Perhaps you could have challenged them to find the bit of the Bible where Jesus said that such an attack would be justified? Hint: it doesn't.

 

[craigiri]

Jesus claimed he was going to die and then come back to life 3 days later. Any men you know who have actually claimed and done that?

If I said I did, you wouldn't believe me.

But a skinny little Hindu freed India from the British Colonialists......to me that's more of a miracle. Lots of other examples....

Call me logical. If I see, many times over, folks levitate, come back from the dead (after I confirm they are so) and walk on water (I check the depth first), then I'll consider it......

Our founding fathers, although considered very spiritual in their own way, didn't believe in the divinity of J - this includes franklin and jefferson and others. Jefferson made the famous "Jefferson Bible" with all the miracles removed. He claimed that moral behavior was a miracle in itself if mankind could hold to it (unfortunately, he wasn't able to measure up himself)....

But I do have great respect for those who can believe and take things on faith. I simply can't - it's my mental makeup. I understand the pull of it, just like I understand what makes golf so great (which is why I won't play it!)......

The UK, US and many others places are becoming good examples of letting people decide for themselves - which, IMHO, is a good thing. The era of religious states is hopefully coming to an end. Render under Caesar and all of that.

 

[woei]

Jesus claimed he was going to die and then come back to life 3 days later. Any men you know who have actually claimed and done that?

There are, unfortunately, so many scandals involving the church and other religions. That just shows us how much of a broken world we live in (and hence why we are in such a desparate need for Jesus), rather than disproving that Jesus was the son of God and did actually rise from the dead.

I would, of course, absolutely condemn any such attack on your site in the name of a "crusade". That they "felt" free doing it shows the problem. Following God's will isn't a matter of feelings. He has made his will perfectly clear in the Bible. Perhaps you could have challenged them to find the bit of the Bible where Jesus said that such an attack would be justified? Hint: it doesn't.

Do you aknowlegde with the same faith that you have in Jezus that the story about Mohammed is also true? I admire your confidence in this fact that Jezus really has walked this earth and come back to life. For my this is scientifically not explainable and therefore I find it hard to believe. It is a fact that stories change when they are told time over time. And there went a lot of time over before the Bibel appeared with the story of Jezus in it.

I rather believe in everyday miracles, the joy of life and to feel good when doing good.

 

[Razasharp]

Atheist.

I went through an anti-religion phase because of an experience with some idiotic people. But I feel it was unfair of me to tar everyone with the same brush and make some people feel awkward or stupid about their choices (they just got caught in the crossfire unfortunately). I'm passed that - I'm happy for people to believe whatever they want to believe so long as they don't infringe on the rights of others, and they are decent, kind, considerate people. I'm also happy to have a grown up debate about religion - but only with those who actually want to discuss it on perhaps a dedicated platform. I think it would be unfair to start discussing it in this thread.

 

[Jon W]

If I said I did, you wouldn't believe me.

But a skinny little Hindu freed India from the British Colonialists......to me that's more of a miracle. Lots of other examples....

Call me logical. If I see, many times over, folks levitate, come back from the dead (after I confirm they are so) and walk on water (I check the depth first), then I'll consider it......

Have you examined the gospel accounts (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John)? That is where I would (and did) start. Luke is very good if you are examining evidence.

Do you aknowlegde with the same faith that you have in Jezus that the story about Mohammed is also true? I admire your confidence in this fact that Jezus really has walked this earth and come back to life. For my this is scientifically not explainable and therefore I find it hard to believe. It is a fact that stories change when they are told time over time. And there went a lot of time over before the Bibel appeared with the story of Jezus in it.

You mean it isn't scientifically replicable? Surely it just points to something beyond our understanding? Given that it was predicted to happen for over 1,000 years, the God explanation seems most likely to me. I actually find the alternative explanations even more unbelievable.

I went through an anti-religion phase because of an experience with some idiotic people. But I feel it was unfair of me to tar everyone with the same brush and make some people feel awkward or stupid about their choices (they just got caught in the crossfire unfortunately). I'm passed that - I'm happy for people to believe whatever they want to believe so long as they don't infringe on the rights of others, and they are decent, kind, considerate people. I'm also happy to have a grown up debate about religion - but only with those who actually want to discuss it on perhaps a dedicated platform. I think it would be unfair to start discussing it in this thread.

I'd be interested to know more about what these idiotic people said to you. Would be more than happy to join in if you would like to discuss elsewhere. I have no interest in starting a massive debate here.

 

[BirdOPrey5]

Have you examined the gospel accounts (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John)? That is where I would (and did) start. Luke is very good if you are examining evidence.

If you believe those accounts then do you also believe in the Book of Mormon? If not, is there some specific reasons you accept the earlier gospels as true without modern proof but no not accept the account of Joseph Smith?