Gun control

[Digital Doctor]

I've changed my mind.
I think every American needs a machine gun for their 5th birthday. And they should be able to take them to school.

 

[BGL]

And how does that change the fact the every one everyone of these incidents has been proceeded by an undiagnosed or untreated mental health issue? Or that out mental health system seems to be ill-equipped to deal with violent or potentially violent children?

Easily availability of guns to mentally ill is the problem. The Newton case is perfect example of the chain of custody for most gun violence. The availability of the guns is the root of the problem. Most shootings are not by mentally ill but by people drinking or arguing or mistaken the kid sneaking home from a late date for a burglar or kids or adults just handling the guns.

 

[EQnoble]

Seeing that the person who had the pistol wasn't old enough to legally own a pistol in Connecticut and since as Fred said guns are pretty much illegal for any civilian to have on school grounds and also noting that the guns used were a teachers and a parent of the shooter these things also apply....

in Connecticut...

Sec. 53a-217a Criminally negligent storage of a firearm: Class D felony

Sec. 53a-212 Stealing a firearm. Class D felony.

Sec. 53a-217b Possession of a weapon on school grounds: Class D felony.

Sec. 53a-217c Criminal possession of a pistol or revolver: Class D felony.

we have not even included the obvious crimes here

So many laws were broken in this case and if the mother insisted on owning those firearms in a home where son had mental problems then she should have had her guns locked up good.

The problem is not the guns, it was an individual who owned them and had they lived they would be punished accordingly, the son and the mother.

 

[BGL]

I've changed my mind.
I think every American baby needs a machine gun for their 5th birthday. And they should be able to take them to school.

Don't laugh, some nutcase Congressman recommended all teachers be armed as the solution.

 

[craigiri]

Sorry, dutch, all that stuff doesn't make it......to the level of a reasonable dialog which this country is about to embark on.....

It doesn't matter what you think. It doesn't matter what I think. What matters, within the constructs of the constitution and other law, is what We The People want to assure our public health and safety. You can grunt and groan about "freedom" for years...just as we just heard it done about health care and whatever else.

But a battle is about to commence where the people will speak. Not just the NRA. Not just the tiny percentage of Americans who think guns should be as easy to get as an ipad. ALL Americans will be in this coming debate and battle.

There is nothing in the world that "the nutters" (those who think no limits of any type are warranted) can do to convince me and tens of millions of Americans that they are right. So let's get down to it and rumble....in the American fashion of representative democracy. I'll do my thing and you do yours and we'll see where the chips fall.

Is that OK with my fellow Americans?

 

[BGL]

The problem is not the guns, it was an individual who owned them and had they lived they would be punished accordingly, the son and the mother.

No guns, no dead kids in Newtown. It is that simple.

As for the gun owner, she was punished as many gun owners are, by being the victim of gun violence. The kid did not live with her. The guns are never secure.

 

[Fred Sherman]

We have lots of common enemies from the gun lobby, to oil companies, armaments mfgs and health insurance and drug industry to religious zealots trying to overthrow our religion free government.

I was young and idealistic once, but never this stupid.

Religion free government?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The government is to neither respect the establishment of a state religion, not to prohibit the free exercise of religion. it is not "religion free", it take the role of dispassionate observer. Might I suggest you read the Federalist Papers?

It will also shed some light on this topic as well. The Founders intended for the populace to be armed, to protect themselves from a despot government and they viewed (correctly) all governments with suspicion, including the new one they were creating.

Someone posted earlier a list of third world countries they had lived in: Argentina, Mexico and one or two others. Holding them up as shining examples. Well, no. The average citizen in those countries do not enjoy the personal liberties we have in the US. In part, because they are not respected as individuals by their governments.

 

[BGL]

Religion free government?

Freedom from religious government created the first pilgrims and was high on the agenda of the founders in making sure US had no government religion. Irrelevant to this discussion except in the context that the gun lobbyists are also religion in government advocates.

In this case, the founders did call for armed citizens. It was not common in their time except for the wealthy. Guns were costly and not effective in putting food on the table. The founders did note that everyone had the right to bear arms in the militia, a citizens army that included all the citizens, the right to bear arms in the militia.

Not for some foolish, fearful person to amass an arsenal in her home, train her emotionally disturbed son to use those guns, a threat to the community that proved deadly.

 

[Fred Sherman]

No guns, no dead kids in Newtown. It is that simple.

As for the gun owner, she was punished as many gun owners are, by being the victim of gun violence. The kid did not live with her. The guns are never secure.

Guns are never secure. Hang on...

Mine is.

This is what the discussion should be about. How do responsible gun owners store their weapons?

As you can see, my 9mm Baretta can have the magazine inserted, nor can you rack the slide and chamber a round. It requires a key to unlock the cable securing the weapon.

I also have Glock 21 .45 ACP. The magazine is inserted with all 13 rounds loaded. I do not keep one in the chamber. It must be racked before firing. I like that added step with a Glock because they don't have safer switches. My preference.

That weapon is used for home security. it is kept in a biometric gun container. No one but me can open it, but I can open and deploy within seconds.

There are middle grounds in the discussion, if you're willing to put aside zealotry to find them

 

[craigiri]

A gun at the time cost about 15,000 in todays pay, so you can bet joe six-pack was not arming up. Nor could he squeeze off hundreds of rounds in a minute.

My best guess would be if such arms existed at the time and little school children were being murdered by them in bulk, the founders would have taken a bit more time to make things more clear....

The Federalist Papers? They are not in our government! Many are the writings of Hamilton, the arch-enemy of the right in this country! We'd have to be nuts to consider anonymous opinion pieces attempting to persuade us to form together...to be the foundation of our real law.

 

[Fred Sherman]

Freedom from religious government created the first pilgrims and was high on the agenda of the founders in making sure US had no government religion. Irrelevant to this discussion except in the context that the gun lobbyists are also religion in government advocates.

You should study colonial history a little better. You will find that the colonists had established official religions and religious requirements for holding office or owning land. You should read what it was like to be a Catholic in colonial America. Just one step above being a witch. Of course those weren't religiously motivated either. Or scarlet letters? It wasn't just a novel.

 

[BGL]

Guns are never secure. Hang on... Mine is.

Not it's not. Some bolt cutters and it's mine...and thanks for that nice easy to see and find red locator tag.

That weapon is used for home security.

So were all of Mrs. Lanza's weapons. Didn't make her secure while if she had no guns she would be alive today as would 26 people in Newton.

 

[Fred Sherman]

I have a question to ask of anyone who believes that they have a right to own a firearm. What would you do to stop these mass shootings?

There isn't much you can do. I believe responsible gun owners should secure their weapons. I do. But its not like you can inspect their homes.

Now I will ask you in return, what do you do to stop a homicidal nut? You can take away the gun, but does that really stop them? Sure, maybe a knife isn't as effective. But a pipe capped at both ends, filled with roofing nails, kerosine and fertilizer is more effective. IEDs are pretty effective in Iraq.

 

[Fred Sherman]

Not it's not. Some bolt cutters and it's mine...and thanks for that nice easy to see and find red locator tag.



So were all of Mrs. Lanza's weapons. Didn't make her secure while if she had no guns she would be alive today as would 26 people in Newton.

Try walking through my door with your bolt cutters. Do you think anyone is going to bet on you walking out with my weapon?

 

[Fred Sherman]

How many things have you killed in your life....serious question...I am trying to figure out how much your murder weapon preference matters here.

Too damned many

 

[craigiri]

Of course securing guns would help the problem! Big time.

But I know humans. It ain't gonna happen. Just ain't.

I have a family member who was an ex-cop. His kid is a big off, so he locked his gun in a closet and kept the ammo elsewhere. The kid became a druggie and invited one of his friends into the house to break into the closet. They got the gun and found the ammo and sold it.

Fred, if all guns had your level of security and if people had common sense (don't take troubled kids to shooting ranges and let them have access to your weapons), we wouldn't need this discussion.

But they don't - and they won't.

 

[BGL]

Now I will ask you in return, what do you do to stop a homicidal nut?

Make it very hard for them to get guns. It works in every other developed nation and it will work in the US. We have many successful gun regulation models to use.

 

[Fred Sherman]

Is this for EVERY type of firearm?

No. Automatic weapons are prohibited from personal ownership.

 

[Fred Sherman]

Make it very hard for them to get guns. It works in every other developed nation and it will work in the US. We have many successful gun regulation models to use.

I've already posted the numbers for knife crime in the UK. remving guns doesn't work. We already have a failed model to prove it.

 

[jasetaro]

Make it very hard for them to get guns. It works in every other developed nation and it will work in the US. We have many successful gun regulation models to use.

Which ones? Keep in mind the courts have already struck down Washington D.C.'s defacto gun ban and more recently struck down Illinois concealed carry ban.