Gun control

[BGL]

I always see statistics thrown into these kinds of debates...

Yes...facts do come up but you mostly see them from the gun regulation side and complaints about "stats" from the gun lobby.

The facts are overwhelmingly on the side of gun control.

Its true that America has a large gun related homocides and violence, but no anti-gun people would want to admit that in the past 20 years the murder rate in the US has dropped by almost half. US crime rate is actually the lowest it has been in decades, even despite the recession - in main part thanks to technology, polices, and policing.

Crime rate goes up and down and criminologists and statisticians have not been able to come up with any correlation. Economic times for example driving people to crime for food etc. doesn't seem to affect it. It has a lot to do with public attitude. Interesting that like the deficit/debt, homocides took a big jump in US during the Reagan era when fantasy ruled, not the least the gun fantasy as US was in full Hollywood cowboy mode.

Mass shootings are actually down *, but public perception says otherwise - just like the perception of nationwide violence, many people think it has gotten worse despite statistics.

Mass shootings are actually up and keep in mind that over half of the gun deaths are not homicide but suicide, manslaughter and accidents (kids and adults playing with guns) etc.

Some people like to throw in UK and Japan, because of their very strict gun laws/bans they have much lower murder rates than America.

The stats and facts are clear and it is EVERY other developed nation, UK, Germany, Canada, Australia. Gun regulations work to nearly eliminate gun deaths and injury.

 

[Aarmin]

weak

 

[BGL]

weak

Here are some more of those facts and figures that cause the gun lobbyists to go "weak".

GUN VIOLENCE in the UNITED STATES
Some Indicative Data:
Gun Ownership

• The US has an estimated 283 million guns in civilian hands
• Each year about 4.5 million firearms, including approximately 2 million handguns, are sold in the United States
• An estimated 2 million second hand firearms are sold each year
• The percentage of American households with a gun has been steadily declining (high of 54% in 1977 to 33% in 2009)
• The average number of guns per owner has increased from 4.1 in 1994 to 6.9 in 2004.

Sources: Injury Prevention (2007); ATF (2000); National Opinion Research Center (2008); Pew Research Center (2009)
Gun Deaths:
More than 30,000 people are killed by firearms each year in this country
More than 30 people are shot and murdered each day
1/2 of them are between the ages of 18 and 35
1/3 of them are under the age of 20
Homicide is the second leading cause of death among 15-24 year-olds
And the primary cause of death among African Americans of that age group
Gun Homicides (average annually):
Less than 50: Japan
Less than 150: Germany, Italy, France, etc.
Less than 200: Canada
More than 10,000: USA
Source: IANSA (International Action Network on Small Arms of the United Nations)
Injuries and Deaths from Guns
Everytime a gun injures or kills in self-defense, one is used:

• 11 times for a completed or attempted suicide
• 7 times in a criminal assault or homicide
• 4 times in an unintentional shooting death or injury

Source: Journal of Trauma, injury, Infection and Critical Care (1998)
Per Capita Annual Gun Death Rate (per 100,000 population):
Highest: Louisiana (19.04, 45.6% households contain guns)
#25: Pennsylvania (10.90)
Lowest: CT, NY, New Jersey (4.99), RI, MA, Hawaii (2.20)
National: (10.32)
Source: Centers for Disease Control
Costs of Gun Violence

• Gun violence impacts society in many ways: medical costs, costs of the criminal justice system, security precautions such as metal detectors, and reductions in the quality of life because of fear of gun violence.
• U.S. lifetime medical costs for gunshot injuries total an estimated $2.3 billion
• U.S. taxpayers pay for almost half ($1.1 billion or 49%) of lifetime medical costs for gunshot injuries

Guns Recovered from Crime

• Only 1% of gun dealer account for almost 60% of crime guns recovered by police and later traced
• In one year, at least 30,000 guns were “lost” out of gun dealers inventories
• Guns with a short “time to crime” are disproportionately represented among crime guns. Guns manufactured and sold 3 years or less, prior to recopvery by police in crime make up 34 % of recovered and traced crime guns, but only 14% of the US gun stock.
• Guns sold as paert of a multiple sale at a gun dealer were up to 64% more likely to be used in a crime than guns not part of such sales.
• “No background check” sales account for an estimated 40% of gun sales in the U.S.

Sources: ATF (2000); Brady Center; National Institute of Justice (1993, 2007); Police Foundation (1997)
Distance From Legal Point of Purchase to Crime Recovery:

Within 10 miles
More than 100 miles
Philadelphia
61.2%
18.1%
Pittsburgh
62.9%
12.6%
Newark
9.1%
81.5%
New York City
4.4%
83%
Source: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF)
Percent of Recovered Crime Guns First Legally Purchased In-State:
Pennsylvania: 78%
New Jersey: 27% (18% from PA)
New York: 28%
Source: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF)
Some Interesting Poll Data
77% of NRA members favor a waiting period for purchase of a handgun
82% of American support limiting the sales of military-style assault weapons
94% of police chiefs favor requiring a background check for all handgun sales.
Support for background checks on private gun sales, including gun shows:

• 87% of American
• 83% of gun owners
• 69% of NRA gun-owners

Support for limiting handgun sales to one per person per month:

• 65% of Americans
• 59% of gun owners

Support for registration of handguns

• 79% of Americans
• 69% of police chiefs
• 61% of gun owners
• 59% of NRA members

Sources: CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll (2008); Greenberg Quinlan Rosner Research (2008); Mayors Against Illegal Guns (2009); National Opinion research Center (2003); American Journal of Preventative Medicine (2006); Violence & Victims (1993)

 

[jasetaro]

Thanks for the details. You are talking about purchasing new firearms through a dealer. I wasn't meaning these types of purchases and should have specified that. Your answer has me wondering about something else. Are you required to register your firearms?


Leaving the discussion for now - more tomorrow.

Ok, first one point of clarification, under Federal Law you may only buy a handgun in the state in which you reside.

In Connecticut the secondary sale handguns, that is sales between private parties, is regulated pretty much the same way new sales are... you have to be a resident of the State of Connecticut, have valid pistol license, complete the required state transfer paperwork and contact the state police for an authorization number.

The secondary sale rifle and shotguns is pretty much unregulated, there no reporting requirements. The one exception is gun shows sales at gun shows require background checks and transfer paperwork be completed.

Oh, and before I forget, someone asked about registration... The transfers forms*, DPS-67-C, DPS-3-C and ATF 4473 record the make, model and serial number of firearm and the purchasers details.

*Only DPS-67-C, DPS-3-C are required for the secondary sales of handguns.

 

[Aarmin]

... Mass shootings are actually up and keep in mind that over half of the gun deaths are not homicide but suicide, manslaughter and accidents (kids and adults playing with guns) etc.

Actually there has been no increase in mass killings. What the analyst see is short-term spikes with shootings close together in time. The clustering of mass murders is nothing more than random timing and sheer coincidence.

If you read my first post I already mentioned suicides and home accidents.

 

[jasetaro]

This is a little off topic, but it's worth reading and discussing: 'I Am Adam Lanza's Mother': A Mom's Perspective On The Mental Illness Conversation In America

 

[fos]

View attachment 38111

http://scienceblogs.com/thepumphandle/2012/07/23/gun-violence-is-a-u-s-public-health-problem/

Can anyone guess which country on this list has lax gun laws ?

On the same day as Newtown, 22 school children were slashed with a knife by a 36 year old man in China. A similar incident happened in China two years ago. Just blaming guns and not taking other weapons into account is simplistic. Gun secure countries have a lot more bombings, for instance.

As the liberals and this administration say, never let a good crisis go to waste. ( Rep. Nadler currently, Hillary not too long ago.)

PS. I am a retired public school teacher, and I still like my freedoms. At least what the Obama admin isn't taking away by Presidential (dictator) edict.

 

[Neil E.]

Ok, first one point of clarification, under Federal Law you may only buy a handgun in the state in which you reside.

In Connecticut the secondary sale handguns, that is sales between private parties, is regulated pretty much the same way new sales are... you have to be a resident of the State of Connecticut, have valid pistol license, complete the required state transfer paperwork and contact the state police for an authorization number.

The secondary sale rifle and shotguns is pretty much unregulated, there no reporting requirements. The one exception is gun shows sales at gun shows require background checks and transfer paperwork be completed.

Oh, and before I forget, someone asked about registration... The transfers forms*, DPS-67-C, DPS-3-C and ATF 4473 record the make, model and serial number of firearm and the purchasers details.

*Only DPS-67-C, DPS-3-C are required for the secondary sales of handguns.

This is good information and it looks to me like none of these requirements is unreasonable. It might be a good idea to have background checks for secondary long guns sales so military style firearms are better controlled. No one can dispute that handguns are the largest part of the problem.

The conclusions I come to after the massacre of school children is that gun security (safe storage) needs to be improved. This might have helped, however in this case the madman could have killed his parents with a knife and then accessed the secured guns. Saying that getting rid of guns is the solution is wishful thinking. It's equally as stupid as passing a law that declares schools are gun free zones.

The only way to have a gun free zone is with fortified compounds and metal detectors at the entrances. Laws are only followed by normal people. Crazy people are exempt. Criminals make their own choices and decide to take chances. You simply cannot remove guns from America; they are part of the culture. Reactionary knee-jerk law making will only polarize people further. The pro-gun folks foam at the mouth just as much as the anti-gun folks. Until society changes so people will respect each other, you have to keep building bigger and better prisons. This is because you have no way of reducing the number of crazy people being produced or helping them change their outlook.

Good old fashioned American values left long ago when the do-gooders proliferated. How can society have a solid foundation when punishment no longer fits the crime? Laws are only effective when they are enforced.

I've always liked the lyrics in the 1965 song "Eve Of Destruction". I suppose most of the people reading this are too young to know it. It does a good job of commenting on the American situation. How much has changed since then?

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[craigiri]

On the same day as Newtown, 22 school children were slashed with a knife by a 36 year old man in China. .

How many died?
If you had to choose one of them to happen at your kids school, which would it be?

Seems pretty simple to me. Your example proves that the increased opportunity to kill more people faster results in more people dead. Do you see it another way?

 

[EQnoble]

Neither if you really want to solve a problem, make people stop wanting to hurt people...that is the answer.

It takes 2 seconds to kill someone with a knife if that is what you want to do...you can also aim away from a kill zone and make surface wounds...or you can stab someone in a place that causes them to endure a serious amount of pain and suffering before they die...and a stabbing is very personal, it is something your kids if they live will take with them for the rest of their lives and it can be a permanent mentally and physically damaging experience.


The only thing that is different between a gun and a knife when only one person has a weapon is striking distance...and when you are talking about one person in a SCHOOL with a weapon, you have to assume he is the only one with a weapon so in reality gun vs life in a setting such as this does not mean more death.

 

[whynot]

If you had to choose one of them to happen at your kids school, which would it be?

An injured child or a dead child? Let me think about it...

 

[EQnoble]

So you are saying that knives can't be deadly and that they always and only cause injuries?

 

[craigiri]

So you are saying that knives can't be deadly and that they always and only cause injuries?

C'mon, don't suspend logic. I'm saying I would much rather have my kids in a school attacked by a lone knife wielding madman than one with a nut who has 2 handguns, a AR and unlimited ammo.

And you?

 

[craigiri]

Neither if you really want to solve a problem, make people stop wanting to hurt people...that is the answer.
.

We can do that right after we get nice unicorns to prance around over the rainbows. Let me know your actual solutions for this planet and we can talk.

 

[whynot]

So you are saying that knives can't be deadly and that they always and only cause injuries?

No one's said that.

 

[craigiri]

so in reality gun vs life in a setting such as this does not mean more death.

That's your opinion, but it is factually wrong. A few teachers can throw a desk or a chair at a knife wielding person.

From an engineering perspective, that's a foolish assumption. You know and I know that the percentage chances of him causing more than a few deaths with a knife are just about 0. On the other hand, given his weapontry, it's a no brainer.

You are obviously welcome to your own opinions - but not your own "facts". I think you make the problem harder to solve when you state such ridiculous equivalents.

 

[EQnoble]

That's your opinion, but it is factually wrong. A few teachers can throw a desk or a chair at a knife wielding person.

From an engineering perspective, that's a foolish assumption. You know and I know that the percentage chances of him causing more than a few deaths with a knife are just about 0. On the other hand, given his weapontry, it's a no brainer.

You are obviously welcome to your own opinions - but not your own "facts". I think you make the problem harder to solve when you state such ridiculous equivalents.

Listen , if you don't own a gun and have never been in a situation where you had to use a weapon to defend yourself...you are grasping at straws to support your anti gun agenda....which you are using the death of some kids to pole vault off of.

I promise you that if I was crazy and the only one with a knife in a room full of children none would stand a chance...and the teacher in that room being the only adult would be taken out first...so explain how with a knife the children had a better chance? I don't know what you see in your head...but it is far from reality.

Besides you think that a gunshot wound is more painful when in reality people die faster from a gunshot wound than a knife wound especially a child because the % of mass displacement when hit is way higher that the percentage of an adult. A knife wound you feel until you go into shock and die which for the most part doesn't happen until you lose enough blood...yeah that's what I want my kid to feel for his last 20 minutes on earth.

Again, what about that stabbing of a student in connecticut just a couple months ago....I don't see you saying ban knives...why....because it would effect the way YOU live your life....I will tell you what I will gladly get rid of all my guns...and eat my steak with no knife holding the steak in my bare hands if you can also convince the world when a kid dies that we should get rid of knives.

If you don't think knives are a problem you have an agenda...period.

Stop being scared of guns. Be scared of all the abused and antagonized people who have lost their grip on reality.


As far as facts you show me how it is faster in a 20 by 20 ft room to kill with a gun...you are talking about kids and little to no resistance. A knife for 20 kids might take 20 extra seconds...where are your facts that show it is faster to kill with a gun in all instances. In fact with elementary school students a grown person could kill them all with their bare hands almost as fast....if you believe anything different than that you are not basing anything on facts and you are trying to make guns nothing but tools of villains and again using the death of children to push your agenda.

 

[BlackJacket]

Seems all of my posts with actual facts were deleted. If it was for the language, why didn't you just edit them?

 

[Slavik]

Seems all of my posts with actual facts were deleted. If it was for the language, why didn't you just edit them?

Feel free to re-post your factual information without the insults, personal attacks and bad langauge and they will stay up.

 

[dutchbb]

Can anyone guess which country on this list has lax gun laws ?

I can probably guess which one has more freedom.

Let's see how Australia does since the ban:

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Those who want to limit freedom and take away individual rights should probably do more research before they open their mouth again.

What's next? Kitchen knives? What about stones, heck any sharp or heavy object, anything to avoid taking responsibility.

Let's look at some charts to put things in perspective.


In 2007, there were 613 fatal firearm accidents in the United States, constituting 0.5% of 123,706 fatal accidents that year:

Since the outset of the Chicago handgun ban, the percentage of Chicago murders committed with handguns has averaged about 40% higher than it was before the law took effect.

During the years in which the D.C. handgun ban and trigger lock law was in effect, the Washington, D.C. murder rate averaged 73% higher than it was at the outset of the law, while the U.S. murder rate averaged 11% lower.

From what I have read, the recent shooting is the result of irresponsible behavior by the mother of the shooter.