Do you support the immigration law like Arizona?
- Thread starter pk698
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TheLaw
Well-known member
Agreed. LOL.
This is a supreme insult to Jews and also to black people. It amazes me how a stop and a request for ID to identify illegal aliens at a time of urgency is somehow the equivalent of rounding up every Jew for inhumane torture and extermination - who had every right to be in Germany, were legal citizens and taxpayers. And who is harassing Mexican people so that "they leave?" The White Man? The Establishment? There are millions of legal citizens in Arizona and California from Central and South America who will not be leaving any time soon.
So let's get to the reforms you talk about - they are ultra-liberal platitudes mixed in with a bunch of irrelevant facts and what appears to be a great misunderstanding of the visa process.
(1) Immigration and status is not a state issue - they have no say. Federal government - see here, formerly the INS: http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis
(2) In addition, the visa process isn't the issue of why these Mexican people can't just apply at the supermarket to enter the US and waltz in - the demand to enter is far greater than the quota. If you want to know why quotas are set, what the criteria for entry are and the reasons, that will require more reading. Much is available just searching for it.
So now the taxpayers must pay for the care of thousands of young children if the mother decides she wants to start a new life in Mexico? I have no idea why a woman who is an illegal alien here who bears a child should somehow grant that child the right to have us taxpayers support him or her until adulthood. The draw of 18 year welfare. If you and others who feel the same way want to take this on, go right ahead. Don't rope us all into this responsibility.
I could discuss the rest but the above makes me feel that you've analyzed the issue in way that it fits your understandably strong feelings rather than taking a dispassionate look at the facts and then making a decision.
whitetigergrowl
Well-known member
First off, most of that was written by me. Other than the obvious.
Second off, it's no different when I visit a reservation and get racist remarks and xenophobia thrown at me for being white. This belief that somehow one race is better at race relations than another is about as pure BS as one can get.
I would also say you are trying to justify it (racism and xenophobia) by bringing up Americas past, how whites treated Natives, and that because of that, Natives have all these extra rights on how they should treat others. Sorry but it doesn't work that way. What happened 300 years ago is history. Whatever happened cannot be changed. It doesn't matter what people think of it, the fact is, all people can do is learn from it. But what happened then doesn't justify what should happen now.
So, for those supporting illegal immigration, you can foot the bill for them, live in the parts and towns of the U.S. where illegal immigration has lowered the pay rate, lowered the property value, and has increased in crime and other illegal activity. We'll see how long you support it. We'll see how long you keep your family there and how safe you feel.
America was founded on illegal immigration over 300 years ago. But what happened 300 years ago isn't justification for how things should be done now as times, circumstances, amongst other things have severely changed. Unless you want people to revert back to the 'shoot first, ask questions later' mentality from back then too. :/
If you support illegal immigration remember something. By doing so you are also supporting illegal actions. You are also supporting the fallout that comes from illegal immigration, some of which I posted above. So don't cry if because of them moving into your neighborhood your property value goes down, it gets tougher finding a decent paying job, or because higher crime rates are occurring. YOU allowed that to come here. As that is some of the fallout from illegal immigration. It's very rare that illegal immigration ever paints a rosey picture for everyone. Especially in the end. If I went to Mexico and do half of what they (illegals) so brazingly do here, I would be considered racist...and likely dead. Yet it's ok for them to do it in other countries like the U.S.? Get real.
Our govt. has no backbone. They are weak and illegals know this. They will cry and scream and whine till they get what they want, and guess who pays for it. Its not them. Until our system gets fixed, you can count on amnesty getting brought up more often and getting louder as they pour into the country unchecked and continue to make their demands. Then under pressue the govt. will grant some sort of amnesty. Many feel they have priority over the legal Americans or those working to be legal by going the proper route, even if it takes years. Thus their brazen attitude and the spit they throw at legal American citizens and their thoughts on illegal immigration.
"Hey we came here illegally, now grant us citizenship you morons!"
Seriously, where does this idiocy end? Maybe the U.S. should adopt Mexicos illegal immigration policy. Its obviously such a model of perfection and isn't laced with racism. *sarcasm*
http://michellemalkin.com/2010/04/28/police-state-how-mexico-treats-illegal-aliens/
http://www.blackwebportal.com/nuforums/vm.cfm?Forum=13&Topic=5728
(or just google it)
I think anyone supporting illegal immigration should be shipped to parts of the U.S. and forced to live there for 2 years where because of it those property values are lower, quality of life is lower, wages are lower, crime is higher, and racism and crime exists towards the very people that are supporting them being here illegally. And yes, there are plenty of those places in the U.S..
History has shown one thing with the U.S..
When the govt fails, the state takes over. When the state fails, the city takes over. When the city fails, the people take over. Make no mistake, those here illegally and making demands are about to get shown the door or have things greatly made more difficult for them being here.
HannahP
Well-known member
Uh huh. I'm sure you're on the res all the time, hanging out and "visiting."
TheLaw
Well-known member
I actually laughed a bit reading Ruven's reform to limit welfare to illegals - so if you break the law because you want a higher paying job here you get rewarded for your illegal efforts by receiving free money to do nothing! That alone would make thousands jump the border - and all of us should pay for it. And because we are doing this, especially for women who have children, they are coming in record numbers.
Hey, it worked for Castro. He dumped over 100,000 criminals and people who were a financial burden on the city of Miami and decided that Jimmy Carter could force the American people to foot the bill. That worked out well for Miami... they also got to be featured in the movie Scarface. And much is what you alluded to in your post about our government...
We need to help people in need... yes... I'm all for it. But the way you're telling us to do it Ruven, it just doesn't make sense or add up.
Ruven
Well-known member
It is not my fault that your views on how the Jews have been oppressed ends and starts with Nazi gas chambers. Im pretty sure i didnt bring up Hitler or the Nazis. And i made a point to state that when talking about Blacks it was post slavery. I guess on both counts you needed specific examples... in these types of conversations i sometimes assume the other person is familiar with some of these basics of history.
Those reforms you talk about are not liberal in the least. In fact most liberals would cringe at the talk of militarizing the border to such levels, at curbing welfare for illegals, at mass deportations of criminals illegals, and of addressing the "anchor baby" situation. These are all conservative views on the issue.
Now if you want to live in a dream world where we can deport 11 million people over the course of the next decade or so... then sure, i guess anything short of that is liberal.
1. Who said it was a state issue? I think you have misunderstood my post again. Obviously its not a state issue, so when i say "corrupt local governments" it should be clear im talking about foreign nations, specially since i had just said exactly that a few seconds prior.
2. I think you misunderstand how our visa system works. You have a law site, are you a lawyer or something? Obviously i know about quotas and their reasons.
The problem is less about the quotas but with what other countries are doing with those quotas.
Im sure you understand that a law is only as strong as it is enforced, but there is another side to that coin.
If someone has the choice of doing things the legal way and the illegal way, then choosing the illegal way is wrong. But when the legal way does not exist... his only option is the illegal way.
The legal way of entering the US from Mexico has a 40 year waiting list. That is a lifetime in terms of a persons working age.
It is impossible for people to wait 40 years in order to come here, so they jump the fence.
Of course if you have connections in the government and have lots of extra cash to bribe someone... then you can jump in front of the line.
So you see, the problem is not the quota, the problem is that the quota system can be corrupted very easily when its on the other side of the border.
Again you have grossly misunderstood my comments on fixing the anchor baby issue.
I like how you used the word dispassionate... that sums your position up pretty well.
Ive analyzed this situation left and right for years now. Ive been having this debate since high school.
My family considers me anti my own Mexican/Hispanic race, and people that tend to take your view on the subject throw the "liberal/socialist/pro wetback/anti american" stuff at me.
Its a riot. People who are hard to one side of an issue have a very hard time understanding someone who can appreciate the subject from both sides.
Ive voted Republican all my life, right up to this last election when i voted for the Constitution party candidate Chuck Baldwin. At this point in my life im what would probably be called a Libertarian, although technically im still a registered Republican.
But hey, i guess George Bush and his wacky attempts at immigration reform were also ultra-liberal platitudes?
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Ruven
Well-known member
Or maybe it just doesnt make sense to you?
Im guessing you misunderstood that line, i thought the rest of the sentence about them needing to get a job and such went over your head too.
The point was to put more limits on the time and types of welfare that illegal immigrants should have access to. Certain acts of human decency should not be limited, like emergency care and stuff like that.
But folks who come over should be coming over because they plan to work, not sit around collecting a check.
And this was plainly obvious in the rest of my sentence and follows the spirit of the other stuff i wrote.
I know its hard to read opinions that you might not agree with completely, but you should make an effort when you then choose to speak on them.
TheLaw
Well-known member
Actually you did but I realize now what you meant to say with regard to the single example. In that regard, I actually agree. You used a Nazi reference elsewhere but, in this example, you meant to say that tactics in Germany and many other countries was to push out the Jews by making it impossible to live there. Regarding blacks, the tactics in municipalities to discourage blacks from living in a certain neighborhood, etc. Sometimes brevity helps.
It wasn't. I was thinking "local" and "national." Again, brevity helps.
I understand the law perfectly and our visa system. Yes, I'm a lawyer. The flaw in your logic is that you don't seem respect the law of the land whatsoever and equate jumping the border illegally with justifiable civil disobedience. It is nothing even close to being the same thing.
1) There is no constitutional or absolute right for every person to get a visa or citizenship in the US simply because they want it and certainly not within a period of time that suits them.
2) Just because the "local" Mexican government may be corrupt and impose a 40 year wait does not mean that it justifies jumping the fence and breaking our laws. Something tells me that many of these people wouldn't qualify if there was a 5 year waiting period. Even if the US was the one imposing a 40 year wait, how does this justify breaking our laws? Because what they want isn't available to them?
3) Why should Mexicans get preference in breaking the law? Because they share a common border and it's easy to jump the border? What if Chinese people arrived in droves and overwhelmed our borders? There are many people in foreign countries other than Mexico that experience the same frustration.
TheLaw
Well-known member
Yes - it makes sense to me that everyone needs to make money to eat and find shelter.
No - it makes no sense to me that I should be the one paying welfare checks to illegal aliens to support them until they find a job in a place they have no legal right to be (and whom employers are prohibited from hiring.) They should go back to their country of origin, find a job there, and if they need welfare it should be provided by their own taxpayers.
A huge number of US Citizens don't get health care - what are you trying to say? If an illegal immigrant causes a huge car accident driving without a license, he should receive complete medical care? Who is paying for all this? And if we are, then it's a no lose situation to jump the border and there is nothing to fear about being here illegally... even getting pregnant and having your children in a US hospital. Who is paying for this?
You're missing the point. The good intentions of the good people of Mexico coming here to work are completely irrelevant to the ultimate issue that they have no right to expect a job and residence here. In fact, why should they have priority over the 2,445,859 people in China who want the same thing?
Anyways, I'm done discussing this issue. I have important things to do. I sincerely wish the world could be a place where we could all help to make it a better place for everyone. How to do that fairly is a very difficult question and must deal with the corruption and limited resources that exist.
Ruven
Well-known member
When i try to be brief you completely misunderstand my point.
But when im not brief... you completely misunderstand my point.
Im saying that illegal immigrants should not get federal welfare as in food stamps and money.
That women who come here to have babies and milk the system should not get rewarded.
These are issues held very closely by conservatives.
You also picked and chose what to dissect from my posts.
This thread was about the immigration law, and i posted a lot about that and then gave some background on the overall problem of immigration.
You quickly skipped over the immigration law debate and only replied to the overall issue.
People who back the law have a hard time reconciling that the law was written and sponsored by openly racist folks with ties to Nazi ideals and Neo Nazi hate groups.
Thats when i brought up the Nazis as you tried to point out in your attempt to confuse the subject.
TheLaw
Well-known member
Confuse what subject? You're drowning so badly in a sea of historical verbosity that you've completely forgotten what the overall issue is. It has nothing to do with whether white Neo-Nazis from England founded this country, the constitution and some of the laws. In one short sentence - you believe that the Mexicans are justified in jumping the border because the immigration law allowing them to get visas and become citizens is unfair (as if that is a given.) So I respond to you - so why should they get any special preferential treatment more than any other nationality jumping the border? The law is the same for all and I didn't see any blatant favoritism in this country toward every other nationality. And secondly, why should any of us be footing the bill for those that successfully break the law? That's all that matters. Thanks for the history lesson, time is precious.
Ruven
Well-known member
You keep making stuff up, which is worse?
The law is not made for all. Nations from all over the world are exempt from visas when coming to the US.
Japan, Australia, the UK, South Korea, France, Greece, etc... They and about 30 countries in total have exempt status. All they need is a passport and to fill out a quick questionnaire about their reason for the trip, any past crimes, and health status. None of that information is actually checked for validity since the system gives you authorization nearly instantaneously. Its basically on the honor system.
You can fill this out while waiting in line at the airlines ticket counter using your iphone.
Thats how easy it is for people from these countries to enter the US.
As long as you dont say you have AIDS, volunteer to admit that you killed someone, and pay the required fee... you are golden.
I dont want Mexicans jumping the fence to get into the US, but i can see their reasons for it.
And dislike it as much as you want, when faced with an impossible alternative you too would break the law if need be.
If you had a pregnant wife in the backseat of your car halfway giving birth... would you then stick to your stance on the "Rule Of Law" and not hit the gas and maybe carefully blow through a few stop signs and red lights?
America is a country that allows people the freedom to pull themselves up from their bootstraps with hard work and intelligence. That is not the same for other countries.
So people want to come here and get out of the hell that is their lives.
Living in poverty in the US is like living in paradise for a lot of these people, poverty here and poverty there is no comparison.
You can say "hey, thats not our problem"... fine. But guess what, it is our problem.
Forget about what we have done to Mexico in the past, its done enough to itself too... but what about the present and the future?
Have we not learn our lessons about what happens to countries who fall deep in corruption, where the people get exploited, and the poor outnumber the middle class greatly?
Socialism is sweeping through latin america, mostly as a populist movement by the more indigenous groups in these countries. Socialist regimes are now the majority down there. Do we want our neighbor Mexico to be another Venezuela, for them to elect a Chavez type?
Mexicans do not get special treatment in this country, on the contrary... lots of other nations DO get special treatment.
Maybe we should think a little more on how we view our neighbors. This country is flooded with Canadian immigrants, but nobody bats an eye because they look like us, and we allow them to come here without even needing a visa, and up to recently without even needing a passport.
And as an aside, ive been to Mexico many many times, and up to very recently ive never needed a passport, much less a visa. In fact you dont even need to show ID to enter Mexico from the US.
TheLaw
Well-known member
What does ANY of this have to do with the decision to settle in the US permanently as a naturalized citizen with a legal right to work? The people jumping the border aren't upset that they need to file for a visa in order to dip their toes in the pool in Boca Raton for two weeks.
Mattie Num Nums
Active member
@ruven - your argument is flawed in so many ways because when it comes down to it you are saying its ok for them to break the law. So if I am in a hardship its ok for me to steal than right? Mans gotta pay his bills!
Ruven
Well-known member
Im answering your assertion that no other country gets special treatment. Thats a complete untruth, or worse a lie since you are a lawyer and should already know better.
And im not saying that we should just let everyone in. What im saying is that we should be fair about it.
Out of the walls of text ive posted this has only been one part, but its what you guys want to focus on.
A bunch of conservative americans are right now breaking the law by taking money out of their homes with the knowledge that they will then stop paying their mortgage and allow the home to be foreclosed upon. What is illegal is that in that few months window that they have from when they stop paying their mortgage and the house gets foreclosed/their credit gets shot... they are taking that money and using the equity still left in their home and buying a better house at the current much cheaper prices.
After they buy their new house with much more affordable monthly payments, at a better interest rate, and usually a bigger better home in a nicer part of town... their foreclosure is finalized and their credit takes a nosedive.
But who cares?
At that point they have their dreamhome, they probably already purchased brand new cars using their previous but know foreclosed home to prove their credit worthiness to get a nice rate, they are set for the next few years in terms of major purchases, so they can then quickly rebuild their credit being that they also now own a brand new home.
This is illegal, and people of all stripes are doing it in record numbers.
And real estate agents are even advising people on how to do it.
But with people seeing how wall street got bailed out for its bad investments, they dont see why they shouldnt bail themselves out for theirs.
And home buyers see themselves as victims of unfair legislation. The banks were allowed to mess with mortgages so much that the price of a home nearly tripled in some areas.
Just because something is illegal does not make completely wrong.
In many countries its illegal to read the bible.
TheLaw
Well-known member
I've had enough of this discussion. Your continued unwarranted personal attacks are disturbing. Nobody lied. It seems you have a difficulty in focusing. Below is what you've quoted:
What does ANY of this have to do with the decision to settle in the US permanently as a naturalized citizen with a legal right to work?
We are talking about citizenship rights in the US - not visitor visas, mortgage abuses or Wall Street bailouts. From your emotional rambling, it seems that you're understandably angry about unpunished abuses by a larger number of people. Yes, the law should be applied equally. But the fact that I am powerless to stop the government from enforcing it equally (my taxes bail out Wall Street corruption nor force prosecution of those getting away with the crimes) doesn't give me any license to commit a crime either (run my own Ponzi scheme on innocent people.) A second wrong against innocent people doesn't make a right. My assertion was not that nobody gets special treatment. It was that numerous people of other nationalities don't get special treatment and share the same barriers and plight as Mexican people. They can't get into the US no matter how hard they try. So why should one group get away with jumping the border while others have to play by the rules of the system, even if partially enforced unfairly? They shouldn't. But in your argument, it is furthermore not justifiable to come here expecting me and numerous other honest Americans to foot the bill for their stay and medical care. There isn't enough to go around for people who have a legal right to it.
I'm officially done. I'm not responding. Point made. As a lawyer, you learn to focus on the ultimate issue at hand around other related, difficult but secondary issues. Good luck to you.
Mattie Num Nums
Active member
@TheLaw - Every single person I know that is against this bill gives me the same ramblings that @ruven does. Its what the media implants into peoples head.
Ruven
Well-known member
I watch Fox News, the other networks are kinda boring.