Category and Forum Nodes - Why different?

[ManagerJosh]

So I'm configuring my forums at the moment and I'm just wondering why forums and category nodes were categorized as two separate entities.

I do appreciate the clarity of the two being separate, but at the same time, I wonder why we couldn't switch back and forth between the two.

 

[Kier]

You are using the nested set model, aren't you?

The node tree is a nested set, yes.

 

[Paul M]

Again, I will ask the question, why would you want to change a category to a forum and vice versa?

Because some people do.

Ive done it one or two times over the years, when re-arranging a set of forums. I dont particularly understand why they need to be totally different types, but it doesnt particularly bother me either. If I needed to swap one in XF, then I guess id just create a new one, and delete the old one. Some people however obviously would prefer to just change them.

 

[Ahmed]

Again, I will ask the question, why would you want to change a category to a forum and vice versa?

Why not just create a new forum and delete the old category?
Likewise for changing a forum to a category, create a new category and delete the old forum.

Because some people do.

Ive done it one or two times over the years, when re-arranging a set of forums. I dont particularly understand why they need to be totally different types, but it doesnt particularly bother me either. If I needed to swap one in XF, then I guess id just create a new one, and delete the old one. Some people however obviously would prefer to just change them.

Exactly! Changing a node type to another is easier than creating a new one and deleting the old one.
BTW, it dos not bother me a lot having it work this way, I just think there should be -if possible- an option to change a node type once created, that provides more flexibility in dealing with nodes. But if it's not possible, then I guess I can live with that.

 

[Kier]

Exactly! Changing a node type to another is easier than creating a new one and deleting the old one.

From a technical standpoint, no it absolutely is not.

As I have said before, apart from the fact that both forums and categories occupy positions in the node tree, they share nothing else. The only reason that vBulletin allows forums to be changed into categories is that they both store all their data in the forum table, and changing them involves simply switching the cancontainthreads field from one state to another. In fact, anything that lives in the forum hierarchy in vBulletin is stored in the forum table.

The same is not true of XenForo. In fact, Pages occupy locations in the node tree too, and it would be just as easy (ie: not at all) to convert a forum into a page as it would be to convert it into a category. Both involve fundamental and irreversible changes to the data, not least of which is the fact that they don't even store their data in the same table.

I've said it before but I'll say it again, asking to be able to transform a forum into a category in XenForo and vice versa is akin to saying that you've just posted a message on someone's profile and then wanting to be able to turn that message into a personal conversation instead, along with the option to turn it back into a profile post again. The data is fundamentally different, and simply cannot be switched back and forth as you desire.

Perhaps the confusion stems from this assumption:

a category is just a forum [with no threads] so why is it a different type ?

This is only true in vBulletin 2, 3 and 4.

In XenForo, categories, forums and pages are all nodes, but a category is not a forum that can not contain threads. That is a vBulletin concept, and not one that we share.

 

[Floris]

+1 for Kier's clear explanation. Explains why and how.

 

[Ahmed]

OK, thanks Kier for the clarification. It does make sense now.

 

[infinite.loop]

From a technical standpoint, no it absolutely is not.

As I have said before, apart from the fact that both forums and categories occupy positions in the node tree, they share nothing else. The only reason that vBulletin allows forums to be changed into categories is that they both store all their data in the forum table, and changing them involves simply switching the cancontainthreads field from one state to another. In fact, anything that lives in the forum hierarchy in vBulletin is stored in the forum table.

The same is not true of XenForo. In fact, Pages occupy locations in the node tree too, and it would be just as easy (ie: not at all) to convert a forum into a page as it would be to convert it into a category. Both involve fundamental and irreversible changes to the data, not least of which is the fact that they don't even store their data in the same table.

I've said it before but I'll say it again, asking to be able to transform a forum into a category in XenForo and vice versa is akin to saying that you've just posted a message on someone's profile and then wanting to be able to turn that message into a personal conversation instead, along with the option to turn it back into a profile post again. The data is fundamentally different, and simply cannot be switched back and forth as you desire.

Perhaps the confusion stems from this assumption:
This is only true in vBulletin 2, 3 and 4.

In XenForo, categories, forums and pages are all nodes, but a category is not a forum that can not contain threads. That is a vBulletin concept, and not one that we share.

Thank you for explaining the technical aspect of the issue.
Even though simply switching the type of the node is not working as you said, how about a solution to the useability problem, which hides that technical part from the admin?

What I mean is that you let the forumsoftware do in the background, what the admin has to do by hand atm.

So if the admin changes the node-type from category to forum, the forumsoftware then:

1. creates a new forum node using the name of the category node
2. moves all subforums from the exisisting category node to the new forum node
3. finally deletes the old, now useless category node

If the admin wants to change an forum node to an category node then the forum software:

1. asks in which forum the admin wants to move the existing threads
   • offers the option to select a destination forum
   • or create a new sub-forum in this category
2. creates a new category node using the name of the existing forum node in the background
3. moves all subforums (and threads see 1.) from the exisisting forum node to the new category node
4. finally deletes the old, now useless forum node

I can understand that this would be a huge amount of work. But it would definitly make the lifes of all admins a lot easier.
Especially those who will restructure their forums after a switch from vb (like in our case)

 

[zylstra]

Why would any admin create a category instead of a forum? Or put another way, what features does a category have that a forum doesn't?

 

[Paul B]

https://xenforo.com/community/threads/category-and-forum-nodes-why-different.7029/#post-100174

This forum has multiple categories, as do most others, if not all.

 

[zylstra]

Category nodes can be used in 2 ways.
They can either be used as anchors in the forum home page or they can be used as separate pages.

Forums can be used as separate pages, correct? And they could very easily be anchors as well (by simply adding an HTML attribute), correct?

 

[Mr Lucky]

That makes no sense from a technical standpoint. Everyone is complaining about a few clicks to create another node - it's crazy. Are your fingers that fatigued that it's a burden, those few clicks? Damn, man.

Isn't it more than a few clicks if you have to then make a lot of forums into subforms of the new forum? And also wouldn't you need to put a redirect in place as there could become a lot of broken external links to the now deleted category.

Purely converting to a category would retain the parent/child structure and the URL would stay in place without having the faff of redirecting (which can involve an albeitly small hit on SEO)

 

[zylstra]

albeitly

Nice.

 

[Sadik B]

Why would any admin create a category instead of a forum? Or put another way, what features does a category have that a forum doesn't?

The only difference I have felt from a user point of view is that a forum will always show the headers for the threadlist. A category can never hold threads, so you create a category when you are 100% certain that the parent will never contain threads. Else you create a forum and subforums.

 

[zylstra]

Yes, the threadlist header should be disabled if "Allow new messages to be posted in this forum" is unchecked, or alternatively have a setting "Display thread list headers?". I would choose the first.