California Case Update
- Thread starter Shamil
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Good luck to xenForo in fighting this frivolous lawsuit!
The Dark Wizard
Well-known member
I thought the trial date gets decided in Feb.
Jake Bunce
Well-known member
Correct.
Summary judgment = Jan 7
Pretrial = Feb 4
Trial = date will be decided on Feb 4
ArousedWoman
New member
I REALLY want to buy the license for Xenforo for my new forum, currently hosted at Ning: http://www.ArousedWomanForum.ning.com, but I'm afraid to sink money into XenForo before the trial is settled. I can't afford to lose money. Anyone have advice on what will happen to the X forums if vB wins?
Thanks!
trish
ArousedWomanBlog.com
Thanks!
trish
ArousedWomanBlog.com
steven s
Well-known member
There are various threads with the same concerns in the pre-sales section.
Probably best to take a look or start a thread there.
This thread generally gets locked.
Jake Bunce
Well-known member
Your concern is very common among prospective buyers.
Over the course of this lawsuit IB has requested that they be given ownership of XenForo, and they have claimed up to $12 million in damages. So there is a worst case for you. If that concerns you it is because IB wants you to be concerned:
https://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php/363883-Internet-Brands-claims-against-Xenforo
They are talking directly to you, the prospective buyer.
I think almost everyone who follows this case expects XenForo to win (including some resident lawyers). But you are within your rights to be concerned. Let me know if you have any more questions about the lawsuit, and stay tuned to this thread:
http://xenforo.com/community/threads/status-of-lawsuit.39082/
The Dark Wizard
Well-known member
What is a Summary judgement?
Jake Bunce
Well-known member
That means the judge could potentially pick a winner before it goes to trial, thereby precluding the trial.
In essence it is a very immediate form of a trial where the cards get laid out on the table (I believe it is without Jury also).
It will be something like for each claim:
XenForo states IB has no evidence. Requests judge to dismiss the claim for no evidence.
vBulletin has to show the evidence, or good cause, why the claim should not be dismissed.
Anything which isn't dismissed / judged at this point then moves forward to the actual trial.
However.
Given the judges track record, it is likely that he will allow almost all the claims to go forward to trial unless there is something spectacular.
Whilst we can all hope for the best, it is probably wise to consider the Jan 7th date nothing more than pre-trial wrangling.
Yes, I meant February.
Morgain
Well-known member
Nice one Slavil, thank you Shamil, EDF.
So far XF has not lost any of the rounds, though there have been a few temp setbacks like this Mike SAC thing that had to go through a procedure.
Slavik I agree that a settlement offer would have to be big to be worth it. Drop it all, incl. any appeals(though I think they are unlikely anyway the way this has been done so thoroughly); all costs paid.
Hard to see if IB might go for that. It would save them a bit of money as the judge will undoubtedly make them pay costs anyway. Court costs and more XF costs though wouldn't dent their purse.
Is it worth it to them to avoid a court lose? Not really because a settlement like this would say the same thing so their reputation would suffer as much.
What might trip the balance is the law team for IB will get more pay if it goes on a bit longer without settlement. For most lawyers that's the bottom line. So that argues a court case.
However perhaps a settlement which can be quietly buried or even twisted to look a bit better than it is, might be better for their law team on their record, than a lost case? If not the continued fees will be the decider.
So far XF has not lost any of the rounds, though there have been a few temp setbacks like this Mike SAC thing that had to go through a procedure.
Slavik I agree that a settlement offer would have to be big to be worth it. Drop it all, incl. any appeals(though I think they are unlikely anyway the way this has been done so thoroughly); all costs paid.
Hard to see if IB might go for that. It would save them a bit of money as the judge will undoubtedly make them pay costs anyway. Court costs and more XF costs though wouldn't dent their purse.
Is it worth it to them to avoid a court lose? Not really because a settlement like this would say the same thing so their reputation would suffer as much.
What might trip the balance is the law team for IB will get more pay if it goes on a bit longer without settlement. For most lawyers that's the bottom line. So that argues a court case.
However perhaps a settlement which can be quietly buried or even twisted to look a bit better than it is, might be better for their law team on their record, than a lost case? If not the continued fees will be the decider.
Morgain
Well-known member
There are very strong indications that XF will not lose e.g. the expert appointed by IB to make statement that XF copied Vbulletin code, actually said the opposite! that no copying took place. IB have recently after two years foot dragging altered their ground to saying that XF copied the old VB4 structures, but not the actual code.
This has caused some humour as the structures of forums, threads, private conversations, alerts etc were all in use by other companies and projects too so by their own accusation IB themselves are guilty of copying!
However although to anyone who understands this type of software, it is clear IB are just using hot air and jargon to puff up a case to bully XF, and drain their finances so they collapse, there are unlikely but not impossible things could go wrong. One is that the Judge or the Jury will not be as knowledgeable as we are on software. They may mess up. (I guess that could mean an appeal.)
Another is that the idea that you can trust any legal system to deliver justice is naive. Anyone who has had owt to do with court cases will know that a lot depends on obscure technicalities and what a judge had for breakfast. In other words the most obvious case can go poisonous unexpectedly. Though that is a minority thing it does happen.
On that basis if you really can't feel calm about risking $140, don't. It's not long to wait to get things clear.
If you do buy you have the use of the specific XF you buy (XF 1.1 this XF here) as long as you like. I used a vb3.8 one one of my sites for 5 years without needing to upgrade so "moving upward" is not always necessary. (thankfully got the addon I needed to switch this to XF a couple of months ago though)
There are also secondary plans on how to keep XF going if it all goes wrong last minute in February. But for obvious reasons this is not information put up on a big hoarding as it were. It's well buried in a mountain of posts.
Again if uncertain, sit tight till February. You and around a few 1,000 others far as I can see!
Brad L
Well-known member
You should be afraid. Do not pay too much attention to the cheerleaders here. Follow your instincts, because there is no guarantee that Xenforo will win this case. That being said, I purchased another license recently.
Mr_Bob
Well-known member
Just throwing this out there for opinions because my knowledge of appeals is limited.
If XF wins in the next few months, we're going to see active development again (wohoo!). But, if IB appeals the case, my understanding is that an appeal would not look at new evidence but rather evaluate if the lower court decision was done properly. Because of that, if IB were to lose and appeal, is it likely XF development would be stalled again, or rather because XF has been proven innocent in a court of law, they'll be able to continue development without much legal trouble?
If XF wins in the next few months, we're going to see active development again (wohoo!). But, if IB appeals the case, my understanding is that an appeal would not look at new evidence but rather evaluate if the lower court decision was done properly. Because of that, if IB were to lose and appeal, is it likely XF development would be stalled again, or rather because XF has been proven innocent in a court of law, they'll be able to continue development without much legal trouble?
http://www.uscourts.gov/FederalCour...alCourts/HowCourtsWork/TheAppealsProcess.aspx
Reading that it would seem that IB's chance for a successful appeal would be somewhat slim.
Carlos
Well-known member
You would think that a settlement is "worth it." Truth is, it's not. Usually, a settlement includes stipulations.
For example, if you got hurt at a club, and the lawsuit went in and out quietly, they ask you to keep hush-hush on the lawsuit.
Some others, like companies stipulate you to part ways with the company [with pay], or work for them.
A settlement can include an acquisition offer of a company like xenForo, it can include killing off the project entirely, and work for them, it can include just about anything. And the worst part is, the defender/plaintiff [both] has to agree to this agreement. So, if you find out that xenForo was acquired by IB, don't get mad at them. Because KAM agreed to that settlement.
I think I remember Kier or someone on the xenForo team asked "what would it take for a settlement." I didn't like the sound of that, because it just sounds like they're trying to take the easy way out. Then again, it's actually a test to see just how "gracious" IB is.
They can't avoid court loss, the risk is there already. A settlement won't work, not with Internet Brands, seeing how evil they are.
The best lawyers are the ones that don't want a settlement, it's those that fight a lawsuit to the end. It tells the world that the lawyer is really good. For me, Pamela is the Alicia Florrick of this lawsuit. Micheal is the Will Gardner of this lawsuit. IB has a bunch of Louis Cannings in their corner. Check The Good Wife's Wiki to read what stature they have. It's better that you watch the show to see exactly how good they are.
Knowing Internet Brands, that'll be the case.
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