A sincere outlet

[Miacommunity]

When I decided to switch to XenForo, I did it by abandoning vBulletin, which for me was like losing a relative. Oh well, maybe losing a relative is excessive but at a professional level a point of reference has disappeared.
With XenForo it was love at first sight. I immediately perceived in this software a speed, an adaptability to the enviable time.

I'm not up to setting what XenForo is better from a programming point of view than vBulletin, although I know very well that vBulletin, in version 5, proved to be a profound disappointment.
But from my point of view as a customer, and specifically as a historical customer, I can tell you when vBulletin started to fall: when the staff couldn't control the many independent developers who developed add-ons.
A professional community necessarily requires extensive customization and that is why you have sections dedicated both to the development of add-ons and to the requests of new professionals.
But these often prove to be very unprofessional.
We often see fake feedback, programmers who start off big and then disappear, certainly also time-consuming customers, I admit it without problems. And some scammers too.
I have the budget to invest, the desire to grow but all this is mortified by.
1) Liar programmers who for one reason or another say they do not want to work with you but then maybe others say they are interested. I will also be old-fashioned but I find these attitudes toxic and I believe in ethics.
2) People who shoot absurd quotes, taking advantage of the good faith of inexperienced customers. We arrived at the extreme case of a programmer who demanded that a user pay him 2000 euros something for which the same user then paid 50 euros.
3) People who accept the job then disappear and if anything open a complaint on paypal and even manage to be right.

I believe that the staff of XenForo must equip themselves to prepare a vast area of feedback, more or less similar to that of a freelancing site, where to exclude those programmers who do not behave ethically with their clients and take great care of this area which instead I see neglected.
Otherwise the risk is that you lose customers. And XenForo's competitors are certainly not lacking. From mybb to Invision, there are realities that are taking root step by step and then maybe one day vBulletin with version 6 rises again, who knows.
But of course it is necessary to start opening a table to understand how to help the many who are looking for paid programmers and isolate the wasters between them and the customers.
And if I say it is because I love XenForo and I want it to grow and develop even more.
And that does not end up as a software, albeit glorious in the past, like vBulletin.
Take it as an outlet for a frustrated user. But I hope we can start discussing it because if I decided to write this post it's because I know so many XenForo users, many of whom are frustrated by the above.
With sincerity, I thank you all for your kind attention and I apologize for this controversy, which nonetheless wants to be constructive.

 

[DragonByte Tech]

I agree with most of what you're saying, I just want to answer this in particular:

2) People who shoot absurd quotes, taking advantage of the good faith of inexperienced customers. We arrived at the extreme case of a programmer who demanded that a user pay him 2000 euros something for which the same user then paid 50 euros.

In my view, there's a few reasons why a developer might give an absurdly high quote:
a) They don't necessarily want to do the job (either it's a time consuming project, or the client has proven to be difficult to work with, etc), so it's a "well if you want to pay me that much I'll do it" type of deal.
b) You're not only paying for the work, you're also paying for the experience of the developer.

B being the most important one; if someone has 15 years of experience developing add-ons for forum software, and you ask them to do 50 hours of work, they are fully within their right to charge an amount commensurate with their level of experience (which, in most cases, translates into high quality work).
Just because someone is willing to do the same work for €50 does not mean that this person's finished product is of the same quality as the person charging €2,000.

That's just one of the reasons why an experienced developer would charge a lot more than someone with less experience, other possibilities could include the developer working part-time at another job and any add-on development job would need to pay a lot to warrant reducing their hours, etc.

In short; it's not necessarily the developer being greedy, there's many reasons as to why they would charge more

 

[Miacommunity]

@DragonByte Tech As a person who for over ten years has been assigning paid projects, often very expensive, I can only agree with you on the subject that quality has a high cost. I certainly don't expect to pay 50 euros for a job that is worth 2000. The many freelancers who worked with me can confirm this.
But the case I mentioned to you is an extreme case.
In many legal systems, if I sell you at 200,000 euros a house that is worth 20,000, you can be charged with fraud.
Then a programmer who behaves ethically tells his client "Look, I'm busy", or "I have busy hands". It does not sell you 2000 euros a job that is worth 50. It is a question of ethics, of respect for the customer.
Your speech is based on a free market philosophy that can in principle be acceptable. The problem arises when the customer, in seeing the hostility of the XenForo freelancer universe, becomes discouraged and loses faith in the project. And it closes.
Just as you have to isolate those programmers who disappear after taking an advance, or who even without asking for a down payment tell you "yes, I'm available, I'll do it", then stop responding.
I have a huge list of programmers that behave like that, but obviously I don't write it because this doesn't want to be a thread against someone.
But these are all things that you know well, since I remember you since the days of vBulletin and so you are an expert on these things and you know that unfortunately it is.
The meaning of this thread is to open a peaceful and peaceful debate on a problem that in my opinion affects XenForo and in the long run can ruin it.

 

[djbaxter]

from my point of view as a customer, and specifically as a historical customer, I can tell you when vBulletin started to fall: when the staff couldn't control the many independent developers who developed add-ons.

I have to take issue with your premise. vBulletin started to fall when Internet Brands bought it and pretty much abandoned the model that had made the software great in the first place. Then, as they started to lose money, they fired employees or employees got discouraged and left.

It had nothing to do with addons or developers. I agree that as people began to abandon vBulletin in hordes, the quality of peer involvement in vetting the good addons from the crap ones fell sharply and the situation now is that none of the once great addons are being maintained. But all that happened after the fact. It did not cause the fall from grace; it was a consequence of the fall from grace.

I see a couple of employees at vBulletin.com still trying to provide some level of support and I must say at times I feel sorry for them, There does not seem to be anyone doing much of anything at vBulletin.org since they dismissed Paul Marsden - that in itself was a huge mistake, although arguably not for Paul (for him it may well have been a lucky escape).

 

[Max Taxable]

hostility of the XenForo freelancer universe

That's a somewhat inflammatory over-generalization. Broad brushing. Lumping them all into the same bin.

Just as you have to isolate those programmers who disappear after taking an advance, or who even without asking for a down payment tell you "yes, I'm available, I'll do it", then stop responding.

I have a huge list of programmers that behave like that, but obviously I don't write it

The two statements above are conflicting. If you believe it is beneficial and/or necessary to
"isolate" the bad actors, then posting their names (not necessarily here, but at your own site) would be doing a great service to those who come after you.

I have to take issue with your premise. vBulletin started to fall when Internet Brands bought it and pretty much abandoned the model that had made the software great in the first place. Then, as they started to lose money, they fired employees or emplyees got discouraged and left.

It had nothing to do with addons or developers. I agree that as people began to abandon vBulletin in hordes, the quality of peer involvement in vetting the good addons from the crap ones fell sharply and the situation now is that none of the once great addons are being maintained. But all that happened after the fact. It did not cause the fall from grace; it was a consequence of the fall from grace.

I see a couple of employees at vBulletin.com still trying to provide some level of support and I must say at times I feel sorry for them, There does not seem to be anyone doing much of anything at vBulletin.org since they dismissed Paul Marsden - that in itself was a huge mistake, although arguably not for Paul (for him it may well have been a lucky escape).

You are well-reasoned and correct as usual.

To the OP: There's always going to be bad apples in every basket. In any human endeavor regardless of what it is. Rule one of any marketplace is "buyer beware." It's just common sense. Investigate devs before committing any funding. Look for the ones who stay here, serve their customers well and who are consistent. And who don't have a bunch of cookie-cutter, manufactured astroturfing "reviews." Do your due diligence. You don't need momma to save you from the bad actors and wrongdoers. And out them when you find them. Report them to xF staff and management. The bad actors can only operate in the dark.

 

[Miacommunity]

I have to take issue with your premise. vBulletin started to fall when Internet Brands bought it and pretty much abandoned the model that had made the software great in the first place. Then, as they started to lose money, they fired employees or employees got discouraged and left.

Your reconstruction is not necessarily incompatible with mine. You face it "upstream", explaining the causes, giving a technical point of view. And I "downstream", explaining what, from my client's point of view, I saw.

 

[Miacommunity]

That's a somewhat inflammatory over-generalization. Broad brushing. Lumping them all into the same bin.

I am telling you about my experience, I am not saying that this is the judgment of the Almighty.
It goes without saying that you have every right to take this experience and throw it in the trash bin.

The two statements above are conflicting. If you believe it is beneficial and/or necessary to
"isolate" the bad actors, then posting their names (not necessarily here, but at your own site) would be doing a great service to those who come after you.

Please forgive me but I don't think I can accept your proposal, primarily because I don't feel like making accusations in public and sparking flames with personal attacks, secondly because this post is born with another purpose, that is to propose a general reflection. It is not born with the purpose of processing anyone

To the OP: There's always going to be bad apples in every basket. In any human endeavor regardless of what it is. Rule one of any marketplace is "buyer beware." It's just common sense. Investigate devs before committing any funding. Look for the ones who stay here, serve their customers well and who are consistent. And who don't have a bunch of cookie-cutter, manufactured astroturfing "reviews." Do your due diligence. You don't need momma to save you from the bad actors and wrongdoers. And out them when you find them. Report them to xF staff and management. The bad actors can only operate in the dark.

I respect your opinion but I believe that we need additional forms of protection and that the customer should not be left alone. It's not a question of mum or dad, but of establishing for myself an ethic that inspires the programmer and the client, for the good of XenForo.
Thanks anyway for answering me, even if you don't agree with me, I appreciated your intervention anyway.

 

[Max Taxable]

I am telling you about my experience, I am not saying that this is the judgment of the Almighty.

You did the judging. Lumping all developers in one basket.

Please forgive me but I don't think I can accept your proposal, primarily because I don't feel like making accusations in public

Then, you take the accusations to the staff here. Wailing about unnamed dishonest freelance developers changes nothing, helps nothing. Again, the wrongdoers can only operate in the dark. Your silence supports them.

It's not a question of mum or dad, but of establishing for myself an ethic that inspires the programmer and the client, for the good of XenForo.

You want to establish an ethic for yourself, have at it. But you also want your ethic foisted on me, on all of us. And yes it is a question of Mum or Dad. You want Mum to shield you from the meanies out there. We shouldn't live in a world where we can get ripped off. You want it all sunshine and rainbows.

 

[Max Taxable]

I'll say it this way. It seems you don't want to avail yourself of the dev checks xenforo already has. The review system and the ability to report malfeasance. So it seems to me it might be more productive to perhaps list some specifics of further checks you would like to see? Otherwise this is all acedemic, isn't it?

 

[Miacommunity]

I'm sorry but I have to contradict you. I didn't do any of this. I raised a problem related to the discontent that I found not only in me but also in many others, I have not "accused" the staff, i respect all XenForo's staff, but I am simply trying to make them aware of a problem.
I would simply like to begin to consider a similar system, I sketch, to Upwork, but managed by XenForo in such a way as to ban those who behave badly - as happens there - and reward those who behave well.
And Upwork, by the smell, does not seem to me founded by an association of mothers and fathers who want to protect defenseless children.
On the contrary, it was born from a need similar to mine, that is to give the customer the possibility of being protected against wasters and scammers through an escrow system, a much more effective system for verifying feedback, where feedback can only be given if the transaction is implemented, where it is possible to control who gives the feedback in order to avoid the phenomenon of programmers receiving feedback from phantom forum administrators, in turn protecting even programmers from time-shifted customers. (there are, of course). All things that on this forum today are very rosy
Now you can agree or not, and God forbid, but you will understand well how the question I propose goes well beyond the individual accusations you ask of me.

 

[Ozzy47]

in such a way as to ban those who behave badly - as happens there

The XF2 staff will ban develops that continuously screw customers over.

and reward those who behave well

They do reward those that behave well, they don't get banned.

it was born from a need similar to mine, that is to give the customer the possibility of being protected against wasters and scammers through an escrow system,

That would be up to the buyer and seller to set that up when making the contract to do the custom work.

 

[Kirby]

But from my point of view as a customer, and specifically as a historical customer, I can tell you when vBulletin started to fall: when the staff couldn't control the many independent developers who developed add-ons.

vBulletin started to fall after Internet Brands took over Jelsoft and did not listen to Kier (and the other developers and alpha test users) to do a full rewrite for vBulletin 4.
If they did, vBulletin 4 would have been more like XF 1 - imagine how it could be now with all the resources Interned Brands had.

Instead they insisted to do an incremental rewrite over the course of vBulletin 4 lifecycle, at the end of that lifecycle vBulletin 4 still had enourmous amount of prodecural code.

This had nothing to do with 3rd party developers or Add-ons.

 

[Miacommunity]

That the choice of Internet Brands may have been wrong, I can also agree but I doubt that this was the real cause of the decline of vBulletin, which however started long after
Instead, reality is much simpler.
Version 5 was not up to 4 and when the launch took place, people realized that XenForo could do much more.
Version 5 was the reason for the decline of vBulletin

 

[djbaxter]

That the choice of Internet Brands may have been wrong, I can also agree but I doubt that this was the real cause of the decline of vBulletin, which however started long after
Instead, reality is much simpler.
Version 5 was not up to 4 and when the launch took place, people realized that XenForo could do much more.
Version 5 was the reason for the decline of vBulletin

No. That is historically simply not correct. The rapid decline of vBulletin began during the releases of vBulletin 4.

 

[Miacommunity]

I'm sorry but I don't think things are as you say.
If things had gone as you say, many communities would have passed from vBulletin 4 to XenForo 1 many years ago.
I with vBulletin 4 had a great time, I had it for seven years and it was perhaps the best product of the whole vBulletin series and in general of all the forums.
Instead emigration to XenForo is relatively recent and comes from the flop of vBulletin 5, which has disappointed everyone, starting from a historical vbulletinian like me.

 

[djbaxter]

Very recent? I think you need to update your research.

The mass migration started when XF 1 was released and people followed the original vBulletin coders when new pricing schemes were introduced by Internet Brands. Take a look at forums like The Admin Zone and you might get a better idea of that history.

 

[Kirby]

If things had gone as you say, many communities would have passed from vBulletin 4 to XenForo 1 many years ago.

Not necessarily. We decided to switch to XenForo before vBulletin 5 was even released, yet the first migration was done in march 2017 and we still have the majority of forums on vBulletin 4.

vBulletin 4 was okay'ish at best, it never had the relative (code) quality vBulletin 3 had and especially new components like the CMS were pure pain to work with.

Btw: I've been using vBulletin since 2.2.something.

 

[djbaxter]

I agree. I started with vBulletin in the early 3s. I was enthusiastic initially about vB4 but the CMS and blog in the Suite never really lived up to potential. In truth, I likely would have gone to Xenforo earlier but I wanted to see how the litigation played out first. It was clear pretty much from the start that vB5 was a no go for me. Even their own forum running vB5 has always been a slug, hardly a good advertisement for their flagship product. I don't think there will ever be a vB6 at this point.

 

[Dad.]

The constant debate over third party developers, attacking their quality, etc is why many left XenForo. When will this die. When we see threads like this we should just ignore it tbh, or link to the 50 others that exist.

The reason I came to XenForo was because of the community (and beautiful theming but for another discussion), maybe I'm in the minority. People like @Brogan, @Shelley, Miko, John S, @Matt W countless others investing their time and effort into the software made it a place I knew I wanted to spend my time.

 

[Max Taxable]

I have not "accused" the staff

No one said that you did.

What you have done is paint the freelance devs here with far too broad of a brush, accusing them all of acting in bad faith, dishonesty and in some cases outright theft.

I am simply trying to make them aware of a problem.

This isn't the way. They have systems in place for you to make them aware of problems. In their systems, you can get very specific, name names, and actually have some chance of improving matters. All you're doing here is casting aspersions on freelance devs, and spewing some nonsensical stuff about what you think happened to vBulletin.

You offer no solutions, no specifics and no facts. You so far offer only anecdotal garbage, deflection, dissembling and broad brushing.