Add-on XenReviews [CrowdFund]

[Jeff Berry]

You should not have started, if you were not satisfied with the money.

I do not doubt that you worked very hard, very long and in the end very unpaid for this job. But you suddenly left, leaving your paying customers with nothing usable behind!

It was your responsibility to plan and manage the project in a way to be able to finish it. You could have coded the whole thing much simpler for example. You did not and left just before the RC (announced by yourself!) was released.

What you have done is not okay, even if someone could understand it. I do not understand it.

All my respects are with Daniel, who took this sudden burden even with his already very heavy work load.

Given the situation, it's inaccurate for you to point all your fingers at me. Understand that Daniel is the one that initially started the project. There were two of us to begin with and that ended quickly. This was a team failure, which is unfortunate because all parties have good intentions towards the project. Everyone wants to get it finished. I put two years of my time into it for roughly the same amount of monies that Daniel collected, so yes I feel it's fair for him to cover in lieu of my departure. With that said, I also have respect for Daniel for taking this project back on, and again I wish you all luck.

 

[HWS]

Points have been made all around. Let's move on and get going towards a release.

Nothing more is going to be gained from conversations like this.

I didn't want to make "points".
I also have returned my license and asked our developers to create a simple review system according to our needs.

I am sure you will get this add-on released someday, because @Daniel Hood is a guy who won't leave you in the rain.

 

[Chris D]

I think points have been sufficiently made on both sides, now, so let's leave it at that.

 

[popr]

We are hearing two somewhat different stories, and honestly I do not know the full story of who started what, who was kicked off or left, came back, etc. If you both got paid as "founders," you both had a legal responsibility to uphold your agreements unless you were only employees. Breach of contract is what they call it when you don't keep your end of the deal (breaking your "word"). If it's taking too long then you limit the scope and features. From what I understand, the opposite happened and the feature list kept expanding. 2 years on a program like this is ridiculous to be honest. A good programmer, who simplifies and keeps it simple can crank out amazing products in just a month of concentrated work. The bad taste left in people's mouths comes from hearing that a better paying job/offer was part of the decision to breach the contract. (a contract can be implied and doesn't have to be signed/etc). Either way I hope this gets completed. I would think most of us have moved on to some other partial solution. I'm close to making that decision.

 

[Daniel Hood]

I don't think our stories are as different as you're making it seem. I started the project, brought Jeff on as another coder, we got the project funded, I wasn't contributing as much as he was and it became apparent that he didn't really want me as involved and nobody else really did either, I ended up transferring the project completely over to him, got involved in other things for over a year, he had great career opportunities come up and wanted to take them and pushed the project onto me essentially saying it was my turn, and here we are.

The point is we both do have an obligation to the project, which is why I'm back and which is why Jeff stuck around for 2 years working for less than minimum wage on it. We've both made sacrifices for the project. That's also why I continue to say I see all sides of it and I don't have anything negative to say of him. He also has nothing negative to say about me.

Just like Jeff has never said anything negative of me. The only thing he's really said about me is that I couldn't contribute as much as he was, which is true and which is why he was left in complete control a while back. Our stories are essentially the same, there's minor differences in tone when referencing the past because we had several long disagreements throughout which we both have made obvious. We're both still very civil and can see each other's points of views pretty well.

To say our stories are different is a bit of a stretch. Anyways though, I've had a couple of nice offers from some people and I'd like to shift 100% of our discussion to bettering XenReviews rather than focusing on the past. I'm going to be getting another release ready soon now that I have the droplet back up (thanks Jeff).

Throughout all these posts involving a lot of doubt, a lot of concerns, a lot of negativity, and a lot of hope, I'm just glad that it shows there's still a lot of interest.

 

[cdub]

I'm going to be getting another release ready soon now that I have the droplet back up (thanks Jeff).

Awesome.

 

[popr]

... My real world just consumed me with real business, and I simply did not have the time to dedicate to making a plugin for a software I do not even use anymore.

This is the kind of comment that gets under people's skin. Did you not get real money for working on a real project? Maybe to you it wasn't "real" or as important as your higher paying job, but I assure you it was real to everyone who contributed and everyone who's waited and watched this for years, mentioned adding a review system to their own members, etc. Also saying you don't use xenforo anymore is completely irrelevant to the point of a paid project being left before it's complete.

I commend Daniel for taking the project back and doing his best. I know that if I had to take on 2 years of someone else's code, debug, etc, I would be pretty annoyed. Complaints notwithstanding, I would still be a custumer when this is finally done (if it's done in a reasonable time-frame).

 

[cdub]

Well the SSL error is finally gone (or so it seems to me) on XR.com.. but now it's getting the layout criteria xengrid error on the main page.

 

[Daniel Hood]

Ironically, it's a good thing that error is there. People reported it in the past but I could never replicate it so I couldn't really fix it, now I can

 

[sgr]

@Daniel Hood

Are you developing the XRGrid and Merchant Framework too, or just the core XenReviews system for now?

If you are simultaneously developing all the parts, maybe focus on the core Reviews portion so that we can get something working on our live projects for now?

 

[Daniel Hood]

Xenreviews is the primary focus. It has dependencies though so I need those bug free. Mostly the grid for the widgets. Once 1.0.0 is released is when I'll start focusing on monetization features which us when the merchant system will require attention.

 

[sgr]

Xenreviews is the primary focus. It has dependencies though so I need those bug free. Mostly the grid for the widgets. Once 1.0.0 is released is when I'll start focusing on monetization features which us when the merchant system will require attention.

Sounds good!

I'm actually using Beta 4.2.1 (the most stable beta I experienced) with basic features on a live site. There are problems with comments and filters, but I'm able to keep it alive on a live site somehow.. . While it doesn't probably work fully as intended, it is probably better than not having Reviews on our forum.

Can't wait for 1.0.0. Good luck, sir!

 

[cdub]

There are problems with comments and filters

The filter bugs are a big one... they certainly don't work as expected currently.

 

[sgr]

The filter bugs are a big one... they certainly don't work as expected currently.

Yep! I remember there were bug reports about it in the XenReviews community.

I also remember that comments were working for everyone (even on the XR site) except me. I still have no idea why...

 

[nassella]

Thanks for your integrity in jumping back into the project while other more lucrative opportunities beckoned, Daniel.

Good luck with it.

 

[Jeff Berry]

This is the kind of comment that gets under people's skin. Did you not get real money for working on a real project? Maybe to you it wasn't "real" or as important as your higher paying job, but I assure you it was real to everyone who contributed and everyone who's waited and watched this for years, mentioned adding a review system to their own members, etc. Also saying you don't use xenforo anymore is completely irrelevant to the point of a paid project being left before it's complete.

I commend Daniel for taking the project back and doing his best. I know that if I had to take on 2 years of someone else's code, debug, etc, I would be pretty annoyed. Complaints notwithstanding, I would still be a custumer when this is finally done (if it's done in a reasonable time-frame).

I apologize if I got under your skin, but collecting ~$2500-3000 (which was roughly my half) from a crowdfunding campaign is not even close to real income for anyone. That comes out to roughly $1500/year for the time I put into the project. Is that a livable wage for you? It certainly isn't for me. I apologize (for like the 100th time now) that I had to take a step away from the project, but some opportunities arose for me that I would've been an absolute fool to pass up on. I am confident few of you would have passed up on the opportunity I was given either. They have been very fruitful adventures thus far I got your project 90% of the way there, stop being so hard on me. The project is in good hands now, and if need be I can probably step in for support (whether it be intermittent coding or financial support) as the project continues on. I'd be happy to contribute in any way I can, unfortunately I just cannot be a full-time developer at this time.

My health, happiness, and liveliness all come before any XenForo add-on. I hope everyone here has those same priorities.

 

[popr]

@Jeff Berry Who said this was supposed to be your only source of income? Where was that written? It is a xenforo plugin. Most people have dozens of them and also have other jobs. Perhaps therein lies the entire problem as you somehow believed this one project was going to support your entire livelihood. What contracted developer can say as much? You weren't an employee, you were being paid for the end result of a single reviews plugin. If it takes you 1 month then all the better for you. If it takes you 2 years, something is wrong if that is the only thing you are working on. PLUS, IT WAS NEVER ACTUALLY FINISHED. All your income was speculative. So you never got to earn the income from final product sales (and who knows how much that would have been). I've never had less than 3 clients plus my own ongoing side projects at any one time. I would never expect something like this to be my "livable wage." I honestly think this is a moral issue and I would personally never hire someone who has that attitude. Nothing should have stopped you from BOTH taking on a new highly paid job AND finding a way to finish the last 10% -- even if it was during vacation time. Sometimes you enter a commitment that doesn't seem fair, but you agreed to it and have that obligation. If you can just blow that off, well thats you. Anyways, best of luck in the future and perhaps you're right, you can contribute in another way.

 

[Daniel Hood]

I'd appreciate it if this conversation/debate could come to an end.

 

[HWS]

but collecting ~$2500-3000 (which was roughly my half)

I am impressed. Never thought a single XF plugin could raise that much money ($5000-6000) before even being coded.

I'd appreciate it if this conversation/debate could come to an end.

+1

 

[Alpha1]

@Daniel Hood / @Jeff Berry could you make sure the XR site is reachable, so we can go forward with this project?