XF 2.4 XenForo 2.4 status and what's new under the hood?

Where are we?​

TL;DR: We're working hard to release XenForo 2.4 ASAP, but it's taking longer than expected due to scope changes and strategic decisions to wait for certain upstream developments that will benefit the long-term roadmap. Here's an analogy to explain why:

Software development is like planning a cross-country expedition with multiple destinations.

When you set out for version 2.4, you're not just driving to the next town over. You're charting a course through unknown territory with several strategic stops planned along the way - each representing a major milestone or feature release.

But the challenge is the landscape keeps changing along the journey.

• New roads open up (better technologies emerge)
• Bridges get washed out (dependencies break or become obsolete)
• You discover scenic routes that would benefit all future travellers (opportunities for architectural improvements)
• Weather conditions shift (market demands or user needs evolve)
• Your vehicle needs unexpected maintenance (technical debt must be addressed)

You can't just focus on reaching the immediate next stop. You must consider how each decision affects the entire journey ahead. Taking a shortcut to reach 2.4 faster might leave you stranded when trying to reach 3.0, 4.0 or even 5.0.

This is why scope changes occur: experienced developers are constantly recalibrating the route based on new information, ensuring the expedition can successfully reach not just the next destination, but all the strategic waypoints that follow.

The delays aren't detours, rather they're course corrections that keep the long-term journey viable.

To be slightly less cryptic, these are some of the specific challenges we have faced along the way:

A new Tiptap version is coming​

When we announced that Tiptap is coming to XenForo 2.4 it was 95% complete, and we then took a bit of a pause to work on other projects, which we have talked about since and will be discussing in this thread. Since then, Tiptap have announced Tiptap V3 which is currently in beta. Given how core the editor is to the forum experience, it makes a lot of sense to ship XenForo 2.4 with Tiptap V3 rather than Tiptap V2 as originally planned. While the changes involved are not too extensive, we also don't want to ship 2.4 with a dependency that is still in beta and subject to change. While we are not planning to wait for Tiptap V3 to be stable, necessarily, we do at least want to give it a little bit more time so we have a higher degree of confidence that we're shipping a stable editing experience.

We started talking about a rewrite (again)​

While this is not currently the direction we've decided to go in, it's responsible for us to at least consider all routes available to us to help us reach our destination.

After nearly 8 years since the release of XenForo 2.0, many of the technologies we use are showing their age, many of the decisions we made have started to slow us down more than we would like, and as a framework, XenForo becomes a less productive framework to work with. The solution to this problem can be to start from scratch, but we have ultimately decided that this is not something we need to do at this stage.

Instead, over the next few versions, including 2.4, we will be attempting to make iterative architectural changes to the framework so that we all have greater tools at our disposal to improve both the developer and user experience, particularly focusing on the implementation of developer tools and features that have become commonplace in other frameworks, such as Laravel.

Some of our best features are simply not finished​

There are one or two features that we see requested consistently from customers in our community forums and feedback channels, and we're excited to confirm they are coming in 2.4! However, it serves no one well if we release such highly-anticipated features before they are ready and before they have the usual level of quality, polish, and extensibility you would expect from a XenForo release. We'd rather take the extra time to get them right than rush them out and disappoint users with a subpar implementation that requires immediate patches or lacks the flexibility for customisation. We'll be sharing exciting details about what these features are and how they work in the coming weeks, so stay tuned!

We can't keep up!​

I just counted and there are about 15 features that have been merged or are pending to be merged into XF 2.4 that we haven't announced yet. Some of these are smaller and aren't worthy of a dedicated HYS of their own (so they'll probably be rolled into a "miscellaneous" HYS or two), and some of these are going to be mentioned below, but while we have been "cooking" (as the kids say these days) it has meant that things like code reviews, and writing HYS posts hasn't been easy to balance. There is also potentially more stuff coming from generous contributions from esteemed developers such as @Xon and @digitalpoint, assuming we have time to implement (otherwise they will wait for... a future version).


With all of that now being said, while 2.4 is taking longer than we wanted, we have been busy and we are very much nearing the end of development.

And, while disappointing (to all of us) it is important to maintain perspective. XenForo 2.2 was released in September 2020. XenForo 2.3 was released nearly four years later. XenForo 2.4 is not 3 more years away.

But, you clicked this to find out what's new, right? So let's go.

 

[Wanji]

IPS has its own problems. Corporations may need to use it so they can check a bunch of boxes, but as a user, it's bad, at least compared to XF or even SMF.

I think both have their own advantages. One thing I believe is that if XF felt it was on par with IPS, the price would definitely be increased.

 

[Mr Lucky]

One thing I believe is that if XF felt it was on par with IPS, the price would definitely be increased.

I don’t understand why it should.

 

[Apt Irrelevance]

Very excited to see more features familiar to Laravel/Symfony devs.

 

[Wanji]

I don’t understand why it should.

That's just my logic. It might be wrong.

 

[Miri]

This may be the reason @CedricV migrated to IPS (Invision Community) leaving XenForo. He just did it.

@CedricV makes beautiful graphics, and I see he's very good at building communities. So in a way, I'm sorry that he left XenForo.

From what I can tell, we shouldn't be holding our breath anytime soon..

I wouldn't be so optimistic. I don't think we'll see XenForo 3, not even in the next two years.

 

[Digital Doctor]

it's making AI poisoning tools to protect forums from the plague of bots and scrapers.

we need confirmed members
and a new category: confirmed human

 

[Bionic Rooster]

From what I can tell, we shouldn't be holding our breath anytime soon..

 

[2TonWaffle]

Good. One hater of this software gone.

So, any and all dissenting comments and people who are unhappy with certain elements of the software should pound sand? Good way to create an echo chamber of yes men within the community.

Would like to see XF conduct feature freezes for the current upcoming version. There comes to a point in which time between releases become even more extended as this very small team works on adding a another new feature or work on adding a beta of TipTap v3, when v2 has been available for a few years now.

 

[Arnox]

we need confirmed members
and a new category: confirmed human

On our forum at least, we do semi-regular purges of any accounts that have registered but have not posted a single thing. Since an account is not needed to access pretty much any of Sanctuary's features, files, and communities, we can get away with this. And if they post something, we should be fairly able to tell who is a bot and who is not. So with that, almost every person on our Members page is a verified human.

 

[DragonByte Tech]

Look, I know the cats out the bag and that AI is going to take at least a bit of a place in modern development. I'm not a caveman. But holy hell, never have I seen a major technological breakthrough be not only so underwhelming for everyday people but downright negatively impacting.

I strongly disagree, that is a pretty “terminally online” take. It’s trendy to hate on AI these days, but you vastly underestimate how useful chat assistants like CharGPT can be for everyday people.

For example, you can ask it to translate words or sentences and, if you’re interested, it’ll tell you the grammar and other usage examples. This is really useful for language learning.

As another example, it’s also useful for doing product comparison and helping you choose between multiple models, which saves you time since not every store front compares every part of the product.

But the best part is how it’s used as a natural language search engine. You can describe what you’re looking for in more detail, and relevant results will appear.

I’m not making any arguments for or against the inclusion of AI in forums themselves as I know nothing about that.

 

[Kirby]

we need confirmed members

Moderate registrations -> Done.

and a new category: confirmed human

+- Impossible. Even if you meet me in real life and confirm that I am a human there is no way you can be sure that my account is only used by me.

 

[Digital Doctor]

no way you can be sure that my account is only used by me.

sure.
can't argue with that.

social media is increasingly a cesspool of AI content.
forums will be targeted eventually.

 

[Arnox]

For example, you can ask it to translate words or sentences

Google Translate existed for this a long time ago.

it’ll tell you the grammar and other usage examples.

Certainly. As long as it's not wildly hallucinating.

useful for doing product comparison and helping you choose between multiple models

It also sometimes completely leaves out certain better models and also spits out information from otherwise unreliable sources such as, funnily enough, other sites that mass-produce AI-written articles.

Here's Google Gemini's AI response when I ask it, "what are the best options for a gba flash cartridge?"

Spoiler: Response

"what are the best options for a gba flash cartridge?"

Here's a breakdown of the best options for a Game Boy Advance (GBA) flash cartridge, considering your needs and budget:


1. EZ Flash Omega Definitive Edition:

• Pros:
  • Premium option with enhanced features, including rumble and Slot-2 compatibility for linking with Nintendo DS systems.
  • Superior battery life compared to the standard EZ Flash Omega (specifically in revision B).
  • Addresses the save file issue found in the regular Omega version.
  • Utilizes FRAM for save data, which is not battery-dependent.
  • RTC (Real-Time Clock) battery is easily replaceable with a battery contact clip (CR1025 battery), no soldering required.
  • Reported to be very robust.
• Cons:
  • Slightly larger PCB, so it doesn't include the alternative shell for a flush fit in the DS Lite.
• Cost: Around $80-$90 USD.
• Good for: Users seeking a premium experience with the most features and best battery life in its class.

2. Everdrive GBA Mini:

• Pros:
  • Premium option from Krikzz with great support and build quality.
  • Fits snugly in the GBA like a standard cartridge.
  • Uses SRAM for save data, which means the battery is save-critical, but the cart should warn you when the battery is low.
  • Easy battery replacement with a CR1220 battery and contact clip.
• Cons:
  • More expensive than the EZ Flash Omega DE.
  • Fewer features compared to the EZ Flash Omega DE.
• Cost: $99 USD.
• Good for: Users who prioritize support and build quality over the most advanced features.

3. EZ Flash Omega (Standard):

• Pros:
  • More budget-friendly than the premium options.
  • Fairly capable flash cart despite some drawbacks.
  • Comes with an alternate shell for a flush fit in the DS Lite.
• Cons:
  • Noted battery drain compared to other flashcarts.
  • Requires waiting 5-10 seconds after saving before powering off to prevent file system corruption.
  • RTC battery (CR1220) requires soldering to replace.
• Cost: Approximately $40-$50 USD.
• Good for: Budget-conscious users who want a functional flash cart without the premium features or are comfortable with the minor limitations.

4. SuperCard SD:

• Pros:
  • The cheapest option available.
  • Can be enhanced with custom firmware (CFW) like SuperFW or SCFW for features like automatic patching and auto-saving.
  • Useful for native GBA game loading on DS Phat/Lite systems using TWiLight Menu++.
• Cons:
  • Least feature-rich option.
  • Stock firmware requires manual ROM patching.
  • SRAM for save data means the battery is save-critical.
  • Battery replacement requires soldering.
  • Does not work reliably on AGB-001 consoles.
• Cost: Around $10-$20 USD.
• Good for: Users on a tight budget who are willing to use custom firmware to improve functionality.

Things to Consider When Choosing:

• Budget: Determine how much you are willing to spend on a flash cart.
• Features: Decide which features are essential for your needs (e.g., save types, RTC, DS compatibility).
• Ease of Use: Consider the simplicity of setting up and operating the flash cart.
• Save Type: GBA games use various save types (SRAM/FRAM, EEPROM, 512Kbit/1Mbit Flash), so check which save type is compatible with your desired games.
• Battery: If your games require the RTC, ensure the flash cart's battery is easily replaceable.
• Community Support: Consider carts with active communities and custom firmware options.

Recommendation:
For the best overall experience, the EZ Flash Omega Definitive Edition is generally recommended due to its rich features, improved battery life, and reliable save functionality.

If you are on a budget, the EZ Flash Omega (Standard) offers a decent experience, but be mindful of the save issue and slightly reduced battery life.

The Everdrive GBA Mini is a solid premium option if you prioritize build quality and support, though it lacks some features found in the EZ Flash Omega DE.

The SuperCard SD is only recommended for users on a strict budget who are comfortable with the limitations and using custom firmware.

For the Everdrive, it says that it depends on the battery for the save files, but this is (generally) wrong as it saves all data to the SD card. The internal battery on the Everdrive, I'm pretty damn sure, is only used for Real-Time Clock functionality for the few games like Pokemon Gold that leverage that. It also doesn't mention that the Everdrive has the least amount of battery drain of them all when playing ROMs. (Or at least, it did. In fairness, it's been a while since I've looked at flash carts for the GBA.) And it ALSO doesn't mention that the Everdrive is capable of running emulators. All of that was just from my first query to Gemini. We could go on.

EDIT: Asked Gemini what are the graphics cards with the best FP64 performance that have video outputs. It lists the Quadro RTX 6000/8000 and RTX A6000 cards even though they all have utterly mediocre FP64 scores. This is the kind of nonsense you get with AI.

But the best part is how it’s used as a natural language search engine. You can describe what you’re looking for in more detail, and relevant results will appear.

Again, assuming it's not wildly hallucinating. And the more detailed your query, the less it will be able to help you. And when you do this, you deny literally every other website your traffic. So all in all, in this case, AI would save me 5 seconds on a 10 second search for something basic, and for the more detailed stuff, it's unreliable and, even if it was reliable, hurts site traffic. Who cares then? What use is this?

Moderate registrations -> Done.

Yeah, but what exactly are you looking for to differentiate between human registrations and bot registrations? The only thing is the email, and even then, bots can and do use GMail addresses. Q&A captchas work better for sure, but again, that doesn't require a moderation queue.

You could email each registrant and try having a conversation with them, but a lot of people don't read their emails regularly, and some people may not want to bother with registration once they find out they have to have a conversation with the admin just to have an account.

Perhaps one thing you can do is put a field in and ask them why they want to join, but... Because of AI, this may no longer work well.

forums will be targeted eventually.

Not likely. Forums are much easier to lock down against bots and AI than popular social media. Not to mention that every site is going to have their own way of detecting bot activity, so bots need to be able to get through a wide variety of defenses that also can and will constantly adapt.

 

[FTL]

On our forum at least, we do semi-regular purges of any accounts that have registered but have not posted a single thing.

I'm thinking of doing something similar. How long do you wait before purging?

I do wonder why people bother to register only to never log in again. It's annoying and I wonder if they're simply dormant spammers.

 

[DragonByte Tech]

Google Translate existed for this a long time ago.

Should be read with the context of the part you quoted after this, meaningless reply out of context.

Again, assuming it's not wildly hallucinating. And the more detailed your query, the less it will be able to help you. And when you do this, you deny literally every other website your traffic. So all in all, in this case, AI would save me 5 seconds on a 10 second search for something basic, and for the more detailed stuff, it's unreliable and, even if it was reliable, hurts site traffic. Who cares then? What use is this?

I’ve not had the same experience as you, I find the more detailed the query the better, and it’s sometimes hard to unlearn the old method of “search by keyword” that you used to have to do.

I’ve no idea how Gemini works as I’ve never used it.

As for denying websites traffic and what use it is, you’re again not thinking about it from the perspective of someone who wants information. It’s very “old man yells at cloud” to assume that everyone is going to be okay with having to click through dozens of websites with varying degrees of obnoxious ads/“subscribe to our newsletter” overlays to manually find the information.

I do not believe that this is a war that can be won, and instead I believe forums will be better off than information dump websites as forums allow for discussion.

I don’t disagree with you that having your site’s information scraped by AI and reported to users with your site appearing only in the sources section, can be problematic. But again, it’s a service problem, and trying to stop a service from existing isn’t going to work.

Lastly, regarding hallucinations; that will improve in time, just like AI video generation 2 years ago was basically non existent.

 

[Arnox]

I'm thinking of doing something similar. How long do you wait before purging?

At the moment, it's just whenever. I don't really have a fixed time for it. The rule of thumb though is that if I start seeing more spam posts than usual, I'll do a purge.

A word of advice though. Again, we at Sanctuary can get away with this as we don't restrict guests access to almost all of our site features. Many forums though require an account for them, so the purges that we do are not actually a viable practice on other sites.

It's annoying and I wonder if they're simply dormant spammers.

They are. And even if they aren't, I don't care. An empty Sanctuary account is an empty Sanctuary account, useful to no one except for sleeper accounts.

I’ve no idea how Gemini works as I’ve never used it.

Alright then. Ask the AI you use the same questions I asked. (Try to make them verbatim as I put them so we can be sure we're on the same ground here.) I'm curious as to what it'll say.

It’s very “old man yells at cloud” to assume that everyone is going to be okay with having to click through dozens of websites with varying degrees of obnoxious ads/“subscribe to our newsletter” overlays to manually find the information.

I would also say it's very "old man yells at cloud" to use the internet without an ad-blocker of some kind. The newsletter pop-ups are indeed also kinda annoying but easily dismissed and ignored. And if you really hate them that much, you can get a browser extension that blocks them too.

I do not believe that this is a war that can be won,

Well, what war exactly? My goal is not to wipe AI out of existence but to simply bankrupt the companies that abuse it through not giving them my business. And if that doesn't happen, fine. It still doesn't involve my forum beyond kicking out the usual bots. Sanctuary is unique in that we don't depend on just our content to get members (although we do host plenty of valuable content). We are a website and forum dedicated to freedom of speech with reasonable rules, and because of that, what we offer cannot generally be found with any other site. (And if it can be found, I'd unironically love to hear about it.) You're not gonna get that from ChatGPT.

As to other forums, they can offer discussion from experts. Veterans. Take GBATemp for example. They were some of the first people to get information on Switch 2 hacking (alleged or not). Forums are hardly dead because AI is now a thing. If anything, I think popular social media is still by far the biggest obstacle in terms of getting users back to forums. We just forgot about that in the AI scare.

Lastly, regarding hallucinations; that will improve in time

There's only so much that AI can do in that regard actually. AI doesn't actually understand what it's taking in. It's just a pattern-recognition engine. And if the patterns it has taken in are not sufficient to match the query given, then AI will not be useful. There's also the fact that many artists and whole sites are now poisoning their images against AI, and I know some have also made a general poisoner to implement against bot scrapers for text AI as well, so now they'll have to factor that in along with everything else, not to mention there are still several copyright lawsuits against AI still underway, but we'll have to see what happens with that.

 

[ebikes.com]

Hey.. i appreciate this update and i was thinking that tiptap was holding development up.

Instead, over the next few versions, including 2.4, we will be attempting to make iterative architectural changes to the framework so that we all have greater tools at our disposal to improve both the developer and user experience, particularly focusing on the implementation of developer tools and features that have become commonplace in other frameworks, such as Laravel.

Hey @Chris D .. i run a PHP web development shop and have been writing PHP since 2009. I'm in the middle of finishing a PHP framework for public release that offers a lot of what Laravel does.. but without the extra complexity and speed loss.

Laravel, Symfony, and friends, all have the same problem in that they are an attempt to push the Java Spring framework into PHP. But PHP is not Java, so it will never be a good fit. They all have slightly differing characteristics but the commonality is that they're way internally overcomplicated and extremely slow.

PHP was designed by an extremely smart programmer who was also impatient.. he wrote it to be simple and mostly procedural in nature... if you lean into his thinking when you code, you'll notice there's a ton less friction in doing things that way... go figure

If you pick any OOP + MVC framework built in the last 15 years, it's based on those ideas, and won't be any better.

I built our PHP framework because i was tired of working with that crap and having to optimize around it. It seemed like i had to write more code than writing vanilla PHP.

Sometime down the road we tested our framework against symfony and noticed the stack trace depth was sometimes 50x or higher deeper while doing some simple operations. It also runs over 5x slower than on our framework.
All because of insane chains of function calls and long data passing routines that make pretending to program in Java possible.

What i find interesting is that Laravel is newer but slower than symfony, the memory use is worse, it's like they totally blew the chance to de-complexify it.

Top: our framework, Zerolith ( that's it's debugger )
Bottom: Symfony script being profiled with php-spx extension

My advice is to pick a minimalist framework like mine, that's the only way things will get less complicated. Laravel will be a lot of work for very minimal gain, and i think it will be slower ( Xenforo surprised us @ how fast it is despite the porker framework it sits on )