XenBlog + XenCMS: It's already here!

[Tigratrus]

Well... Mostly

I've spent years thinking about ways to tightly integrate Blogs and CMS systems into a forum based site. This morning a final piece of the puzzle fell into place, and I'd like to get some feedback from others before making it into a "Suggestion."

Basically, BOTH The CMS and the Member Blogs should be nothing more, or less, than a different VIEW (in the MVC sense) of the existing community content (forums). Building a separate parallel system which stovepipes user content is counter productive, presents a unnecessary barrier to user adoption, and fragments the community.

The solution to both a native XF CMS and a native XF Member Blogging solution is essentially:

An extended XenPorta. Let's hear it for Jaxel!

Let me explain.

XenCMS

With the "Promote Thread" functionality Jaxel has already implemented, XenPorta can act right now as quite a good CMS using the forum system to store the articles. About the only thing that's missing is the ability to provide category pages that show a chronological list of "Articles" in a given category.

Category pages could be handled one of two ways (off the top of my head):

1. Each category == an existing forum name. That ties in directly with your communities existing content structure, so it prepares newcomers arriving via the home page for the community forum structure.
2. When "Promoting" a thread from the community forums to the home page, you specify a matching category for that "article."

In both cases, clicking on the category name brings up a page that functions identically to XenPorta, except it has a filter that shows only articles that match the appropriate category. If these category pages have the ability to have their own module configuration/layout, you now have the ability to (very easily!) craft customized landing pages for various topic areas of your site. Each of which will be dynamically updated with topically appropriate "articles" simply by promoting threads from the forums. How do you add custom crafted articles with in depth info? By doing what you should be already doing in the first place...creating really GOOD threads in your forum system!

Basically each category page acts as a separate WP style blog (displaying carefully selected content from the forums), and the homepage acts as an aggregator (showing all selected content in all categories).

XenBlog

Building on the existing XenPorta functionality we use a single forum to hold all "Member Blog" OP's and present them in a member specific manner. Basically XenPorta, but with the "RecentNews" module set to pull from the designated "Blog" forum (Project Blogs in the example below) with a filter to only pull threads started by the member whose "Blog" you are visiting.

Example:

Let's say you have a DIY forum, and you have a forum named "Project Blogs" where your members chronicle their projects. Now I can either go to "Project Blogs" and create a new thread there, or I can click "My Blog" in the site Nav menu to go to my "Blog" (www.domain.com/blogs/tigratrus) then click a "New Post" button to create a new blog entry. In both cases the results are identical:

A thread is created in "Project Blogs" sharing with the community whatever I want to share. A new "Post" shows up in Tigratrus' Blog showing the first 400 (or whatever you have the excerpt set to) characters of the OP followed by a "Read More..." link to the thread and a note that there are "X" comments (which are actually replies to the thread).

POOF!

Now it's super easy to keep up with all the details of an individual blog you want to follow, just go to that member's "Blog" page. In fact, it might make sense to merge this functionality with the existing user profile.

In addition there's a single place to go to see an activity stream of ALL Member blogs: The Project Blogs.

As an added benefit, it's perfect for the many existing forums that have a thread based blogging tradition already. Nothing has to change, this just gives them a better interface.

Conclusion

Forums... Blogs... CMS Articles. They are all basically the same thing, User Generated Content, initial post and replies/comments. So let's apply the concepts of MVC design to take the existing content, and present it in different ways to more effectively suit different needs. Google loves blog style home pages, that's why so many large sites go to a WP/Joomla/Drupal CMS homepage. But by taking the creative output of the Admin (and other article writers) and funneling it into "Articles", we deprive the community (forums) of that same creative energy, and also deprive the member of the sense of personal accomplishment that goes with having THEIR content on the home page.

Our communities are all about the people in the forums and their stories. Let's take that energy, that sense of community and show it to the world directly! Give the internet a fresh "VIEW" of our communities

 

[Paul B]

for those that prefer a simpler, more tightly integrated solution that avoids fragmentation and problems with making other forum addon's (Gallery, Downloads, e-Commerce etc) work with the blogs...

Has Onimua confirmed then that his Blog will have problems in these areas?

 

[Tigratrus]

How could he confirm or not confirm at this point? I'm talking about looking down the road at things that aren't even here yet. You're right though, that was poorly phrased I'll add "potential", thanks for pointing that out.

What I'm saying is that by having the Blog system based in the forums, you don't have to worry about whether the blogs will interact with them or not. If they work with the forums, they work with the blogs.

To show what I'm talking about: Imagine someone introducing a "Spoiler" or "Hide" addon that is built to work with the Forum content type, and hides a chunk of text until you click a link/button... Know the kind of mod I'm talking about? Well it'd automatically work with the forum based blogging solution because it's the same exact content type. But will it work with the "Blog" content type? I've no idea... I imagine it depends on how it was implemented, wouldn't you think?

::shrug::

Maybe every single tweak to the forums will be reflected in the Blog content (and the Article content type for those that go that route with a CMS solution) type, if so great. I'm just saying that having a single content type is likely to have a better chance to present a more consistent experience for the members as thing change and evolve down the road.

 

[Onimua]

To show what I'm talking about: Imagine someone introducing a "Spoiler" or "Hide" addon that is built to work with the Forum content type, and hides a chunk of text until you click a link/button... Know the kind of mod I'm talking about? Well it'd automatically work with the forum based blogging solution because it's the same exact content type. But will it work with the "Blog" content type? I've no idea... I imagine it depends on how it was implemented, wouldn't you think?

If they do it via a method like BBCM does, then it would work just fine. That's the key to extending the central core which affects the outer parts, like my blog.

And yes, KingK's BBCM works fine with the blog (or should, I asked about it).

 

[x4rl]

Onimua blog rocks and too boot he supports it very well, The blog can only improve! "down the road"
as said many many times, It looks and feels like it was build into xenforo.

 

[Paul B]

How could he confirm or not confirm at this point? I'm talking about looking down the road at things that aren't even here yet.

Well you seemed to be more or less confirming that Jaxel's blog would have no such problems whereas Onimua's would.

I get that you prefer Jaxel's implementation, but that's no reason to speculate on the functionality of Onimua's blog, suggesting that it will have problems integrating.

 

[Tigratrus]

If they do it via a method like BBCM does, then it would work just fine. That's the key to extending the central core which affects the outer parts, like my blog.

And yes, KingK's BBCM works fine with the blog (or should, I asked about it).

Great to hear.

There hasn't been a lot of opportunity for me to see just how things may play out down the road with separate content types yet. I have to agree that the fundamental ability to so effectively extend XF objects is one of the best parts of the system, love it!

Do you think that there is no chance that future changes, addons etc might react differently in the forums than in LN Blog? Obviously you'd know better than I would, given that you're (by definition!) the premier expert on LN Blog .

I'm curious why so many folks seem to feel compelled to post in support of LN blog on this thread. I have never said anything but positive things about LN Blog as a project. Can't we simply agree that different communities have different needs? I happen to have a fundamental different opinion based on my painful personal experience of community fragmentation and exactly how much of an impact it can have. For sites where it works well, GREAT!

I don't want to go down the road of splitting my community's interaction up again. Why is that somehow "wrong"?

 

[Onimua]

Do you think that there is no chance that future changes, addons etc might react differently in the forums than in LN Blog? Obviously you'd know better than I would, given that you're (by definition!) the premier expert on LN Blog .

I'm curious why so many folks seem to feel compelled to post in support of LN blog on this thread. I have never said anything but positive things about LN Blog as a project. Can't we simply agree that different communities have different needs? I happen to have a fundamental different opinion based on my painful personal experience of community fragmentation and exactly how much of an impact it can have. For sites where it works well, GREAT!

I don't want to go down the road of splitting my community's interaction up again. Why is that somehow "wrong"?

It's impossible to say there will be reactions or won't be with the way software works, but if it comes up, you make changes (I can't imagine them being difficult, simple bug fixes) and you move on. Pretty much every software does that, but on the whole I find such things to be rare.

And I imagine there is some defense about my add-on simply because, while on the one hand you mention it's a great solution, you knock it down a peg with comments like

Jaxel's solution for those that prefer a simpler, more tightly integrated solution that avoids fragmentation and (potential, not sure exactly how a separate content types will interact with forums focused addons/mods down the road)

You can't be sure either way if Jaxel's method will actually void such things, but you seem to make the assumption mine will have such issues, which I feel is a little unfair, and I can see that it potentially pushes away people from my add-on because of it. To make it simpler to understand, it's like saying "Use it. It's great, but it has some problems I'd rather avoid." That's a red flag to anyone, and with the way you describe things, you hold Jaxel's add-on on a higher level than mine and praise its approach, thus people say "I agree" and don't give mine a second glance because they think I'm doing things wrong. That's pretty much what this entire thread feels like when you read through it.

My add-on is barely two months old, and yes while it is taking a little while to get up to speed, there is very good reason for it even though it's not immediately clear. No one here wants to split up their community, and I certainly wouldn't be making an add-on that does so. However, things take time and I believe in doing it right the first time, even if it takes a little longer to get there.

We may have different approaches but that doesn't mean the end result will be different, nor does it mean one approach will fall short over another.

 

[Tigratrus]

Can you give me some idea how you would express the difference in philosophy then?

I *do* feel there is a fundamental difference between the two approaches. Based on direct experience, I do feel that for my community one way is better than the other. I've never made any bones about that, even back before you released your mod.

People have pointed out that they felt I was being unfair to LN blog so I have bent over backwards to clarify that I DO think it's an excellent mod that's been very well implemented. I haven't noted anyone that has been "defending" LN Blog returning the favor .

Is it wrong to express a different opinion?

The entire reason I started a separate thread was to represent a different opinion that I felt was not an immediately obvious one to those that were just starting to look at options for community blogging and CMS implementation. My goal was to share my thought process, why and how I feel the way I do, and what I feel the potential implications of different solutions were. I have never once said a single thing on the LN Blog release thread other than to congratulate you on your achievement when you first released it. I deliberately avoided chiming in on the "What about Blogs" thread because I wanted to avoid clouding the issue.

Is it not ok to express my own opinions on my own thread? Where else am I supposed to express them?

 

[Paul B]

Well your opening post states:

I'd like to get some feedback from others before making it into a "Suggestion."

That being the case, I think it's only reasonable that other points of view are heard.
Or did you only want to hear from those who support the idea?

Personally speaking, I think the implementation you want is entirely wrong.
A blog should not consist of threads and posts.

As you can only "like" a post, it's necessary to post when you don't agree with something otherwise you won't be able to get your point across.
There is no "dislike" button.

 

[Jose Amaral Mota]

Would it not be better to have multiple flavors... It the same to just have one style and no other option for choice (make your own). I rather see different variations and or methods of coding for what maybe the same product.

Edit: I prefer Onimua 'LN Blog' version, as it how you promote your forum to make it work. You need to educate people to know how a blog works or you have to educate yourself into why you need one in the first place.

 

[GofD]

Personally speaking, I think the implementation you want is entirely wrong.
A blog should not consist of threads and posts.

To each his own. Your site and our site are VASTLY different in terms of focus, membership, and content. Why shouldn't it be ok to have a different idea of how that content should be presented to OUR members? Wrong for you - fine. It's right for us in many ways. We've had blogs on our site in a number of different forms for about five years now and we have 350 member blogs to be concerned with - it's not just 2 or 3 or 10. We've decided on a method that will suit our needs - maybe it won't suit yours, but you could just walk away instead of continually arguing the point. You disagree. We get that.

 

[Paul B]

Well my comment was based on the fact that this was going to be turned into a suggestion.

That being the case, I think as a customer I'm entitled to have a say on the possible future implementation of a feature.

I didn't realise this was a thread only permitting supporting comments.

 

[Tigratrus]

Well your opening post states:

That being the case, I think it's only reasonable that other points of view are heard.
Or did you only want to hear from those who support the idea?

Personally speaking, I think the implementation you want is entirely wrong.
A blog should not consist of threads and posts.

Exactly.

You feel that it's entirely wrong. And you are a Mod, and have made your opinion abundantly clear. Repeatedly.

Yes, I asked for feedback. And I've been very willing to discuss and debate in a civil manner everyone that has a different opinion. It seems that given the dichotomy of opinion that it's probably NOT a good option for a suggestion, as it isn't universally applicable, so I have never asked it to be moved to suggestions, nor have I created a suggestions thread for the idea.

The implementation I want may well be entirely wrong FOR YOU and for your community, it's NOT entirely wrong for other communities as it depends WHAT that community wants out of the "blogs" and how they use them.

A lot of other people have chimed in sharing my same exact concerns and preferences. Does that make them wrong too? Is it possible that they are simply different and instead of wrong?

I've gone out of my way to *repeatedly* be open minded and accepting of other communities having other needs, is it too much to ask for the same in return? Why is it that we have to be "Wrong" or "Right"?

 

[iTuN3r]

I think everyone should be happy now since Jaxel is working on what was asked in OP & for rest others who doesn't agree with idea here got option (LN Blog).

 

[Shelley]

Since beta 1 of Onimua's blog it's been stable, the amount of suggestions we put in prior to the release of beta 2 of the LN Blog was huge and Onimua implemented most of those vital features in so not only is this blog solid, feels part of the core but it's very well supported. Beta 3 is almost due and I expect Onimua has ironed out more bugs and if consistency has anything to go by the next release will be another great step for this blog. Again, I would highly recommend anybody wanting a blog to seriously consider this one.

 

[jonsidneyb]

On the CMS side of things it looks like what I am wanting is harder than I thought. Most of the CMS's are overkill for my needs but still don't cover my limited number of needs.

1. I would like to be able to have an index of the articles that would be positioned on the left side. If a certain item is clicked on the index only the items I have put in that particular category would be seen on the front page.
I would have to be able to assign each article with a category that shows up on the index.

2. I would like to be able to change the order on the articles fairly easily. Possibly be assigning it an article number.

3. I would like the articles to be in two columns.

Article 1 Article 2
Article 3 Article 4
Article 5 Article 6

4. I would like all the articles to be promoted from a forum thread.

5. I would want to be the only one that can promote a thread to an article.

6. Comments in an article would appear both as a comment to the article and as a post in the thread. Also all posts in the thread would appear as a comment in the article and in the thread.

 

[ragtek]

6. Comments in an article would appear both as a comment to the article and as a post in the thread. Also all posts in the thread would appear as a comment in the article and in the thread.

google doesn't like double content

 

[jonsidneyb]

Oh, what happens when there is content in the forum and on the front page? I have it working that way on vB4 but don't like vB4

 

[Tigratrus]

There wouldn't BE any duplicated content as only the excerpt would exist on the Homepage and in the categories, the "Read More" takes you directly into the thread in the forums. To make it even MORE clear, I'd simply add a canonical tag to the link like so:
<link rel="canonical" href="http://www.example.com/#######" />
To tell Google that the thread is the definitive content source. Shouldn't even be an issue since the one is just an excerpt and a link, but it never hurts to be totally clear.

James

 

[ragtek]

There wouldn't BE any duplicated content as only the excerpt would exist

true if it's really a excerpt and it redirects only to the thread and not to an own article page.

But as he said, he wants both:

Article 1 Article 2
Article 3 Article 4
Article 5 Article 6

4. I would like all the articles to be promoted from a forum thread.

so the SAME content would have 2 urls => double content